Bush is a hero
lisw

Delaware, OH

#173204 Dec 4, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>What exemptions, lisw?
There's no exemption here, at least not as far as I can see. Now, if you know that the UPS union employee health care package is below ACA standards or something, then maybe there IS an exemption at play here.
You've got a news item involving not one but two things you don't like - unions and the ACA.
What I know, from both personal work experience and reading (a lot of it at work for the law firm), is employees in a large corporation never have been all in the same boat when it comes to health care. Some companies have two (e.g., general and executive) for non union employees; some have three or more.
Are you saying that you don't think corporations should be able to do that either?
So ... where's the exemption? Where's the knife twist?
First tell me why I should keep trying to talk to someone who doesn't know how to listen?

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#173206 Dec 4, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree CC. Some people have no choice but to go where its cheapest. There are alot of them and theres getting to be more and more all the time..
I think its up to those of us who dont need to go there to support local businesses.........Unfortunate ly alot of them dont. When I started my bus. I worked for Best Buy Part Time installing Dishwashwers, Gas ranges, Built In Microwaves etc. etc..
I went into many million dollar homes with those products, and they Almost always were the worst customers to deal with.
I had a carpet cleaning franchise for a couple of years in the early 90s, and my experience with folks with money was the same as yours.

I try and shop local whenever possible. I usually hit 20% of my grocery budget, and the only way my beef could be more local is if I raised it in the back yard. With other stuff I'll trade at locally owned franchises of national brands when I can (Ace Hardware, etc).

You can begin to question the effort when you buy something from a local business on Tuesday and run them on Saturday at Walmart with a card loaded up from various and sundry departments. I get the same feeling when I see my union neighbor shopping there the same week he had been picketing in front of a business for 'unfair labor practices'.

There's nothing new about the impact of the Walmarts of the world on local businesses except that Walmart impacts so many different areas. I'm pretty sure it's been going on since the mail order giants of the late 19th century (Sears, Montgomery Ward) started opening stores. On groceries in particular, the threat of large chains is one of the themes of John Steinbeck's novel "The Winter of Our Discontent", published in 1961.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#173207 Dec 4, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>First tell me why I should keep trying to talk to someone who doesn't know how to listen?
How am I not listening to you, lisw?

I hear you talking about a union exemption. I don't know what you're referring to. There's nothing in the ACA that says everyone who works for a company must receive the same health care benefits, from the CEO to the janitor.

Oh, wait. We don't have janitors. We outsourced that. Maybe the mail room? No, that's Pitney Bowes. Well, somebody under the CEO probably still works for this company, right?

I hear you talking about a knife twist. As far as I can tell, you define knife twist as the fact that UPS is contractually obligated to honor its commitment to union employees, at least for the term of the contract.

That, to me, is not a knife twist - that's just the cost of doing business. Employees have the right to organize; organized employees have the right to negotiate compensation; health care has long been a part of the compensation for millions of Americans, although the numbers have shrunk substantially over the last 30-40 years.

So - I'm listening to you, lisw. What I'm not hearing is a knife twist. What I'm not hearing is a union exemption.

I know you're mad - at the fact that UPS can't just trash the contractual obligation to the union employees, at the fact the ACA exists. That I'm hearing loud and clear.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#173208 Dec 4, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>How am I not listening to you, lisw?
I hear you talking about a union exemption. I don't know what you're referring to. There's nothing in the ACA that says everyone who works for a company must receive the same health care benefits, from the CEO to the janitor.
Oh, wait. We don't have janitors. We outsourced that. Maybe the mail room? No, that's Pitney Bowes. Well, somebody under the CEO probably still works for this company, right?
I hear you talking about a knife twist. As far as I can tell, you define knife twist as the fact that UPS is contractually obligated to honor its commitment to union employees, at least for the term of the contract.
That, to me, is not a knife twist - that's just the cost of doing business. Employees have the right to organize; organized employees have the right to negotiate compensation; health care has long been a part of the compensation for millions of Americans, although the numbers have shrunk substantially over the last 30-40 years.
So - I'm listening to you, lisw. What I'm not hearing is a knife twist. What I'm not hearing is a union exemption.
I know you're mad - at the fact that UPS can't just trash the contractual obligation to the union employees, at the fact the ACA exists. That I'm hearing loud and clear.
No you are not.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#173209 Dec 4, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>No you are not.
Well I wish you would elaborate because otherwise it looks like you ran yourself into a corner and now are just crossing your arms and going hummph.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#173210 Dec 4, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Well I wish you would elaborate because otherwise it looks like you ran yourself into a corner and now are just crossing your arms and going hummph.
I don't think I can explain it any better than I did. Larry understood it, I think you just are looking for a raveled thread that isn't there. Congress, their staff and unions are exempt from Obamacare. That means they will never have to follow the rules of government healthcare. Now if you don't want to call it an exemption, call it something else, I don't care, but please explain to me why they are different than anyone else. I'll wait.
Hip I have to say that you picturing me going into a corner and going "harumph" is disturbing, and it's just not me. That felt like a personal affront, but you don't do that, right?

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#173211 Dec 4, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Well I wish you would elaborate because otherwise it looks like you ran yourself into a corner and now are just crossing your arms and going hummph.
Well then I'm in the same freakin' corner. Because reportedly, <some>
companies, as well as members of Congress and their staff are NOT required to sign up in the ACA exchanges like the rest of us are MANDATED to do, under penalty of fines imposed by the IRS.

If this is true, and if this ACA law is everything barry claims, that seems a bit lop sided.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#173213 Dec 4, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Well then I'm in the same freakin' corner. Because reportedly, <some>
companies, as well as members of Congress and their staff are NOT required to sign up in the ACA exchanges like the rest of us are MANDATED to do, under penalty of fines imposed by the IRS.
If this is true, and if this ACA law is everything barry claims, that seems a bit lop sided.
Some company and union plans have been granted waivers good through next year.

Show me that the UPS union plan is one of them, and I'll admit I'm wrong in challenging lisw's reference to an exemption.

That's all I've been asking all along. Where's the proof that the UPS union employees are benefiting from an exemption?

By itself, fact that the company's union employees aren't affected by the change in corporate health care policy doesn't prove an exemption is involved. It's certainly possible, and if I'm wrong I'll apologize. So far, however, all I'm hearing is an assumption.
Chris Clearwater

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#173214 Dec 4, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
I see MNSURE is ramping up there add campaign......
I wonder if I can get the Gov. to advertise for my business? What do you think the chances of that are?
Not much bro. Just more government waste on display. Of course those that will dismiss it will say what a small percentage it is. True but its still using public money to tell people about a product everyone knows about. Some of the adds have um been kind of in the face of certain people's values. But then considering the sourse I'd expect nothing less.
Chris Clearwater

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#173215 Dec 4, 2013
Source

Since: Sep 10

Fremont, CA

#173216 Dec 4, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>Not much bro. Just more government waste on display. Of course those that will dismiss it will say what a small percentage it is. True but its still using public money to tell people about a product everyone knows about. Some of the adds have um been kind of in the face of certain people's values. But then considering the sourse I'd expect nothing less.
You do realize, I hope, that all you do is whine.
Lost In Transition

United States

#173217 Dec 4, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a common myth that really took off in the Reagan union-busting era. The question one might ask is who might benefit from promoting that myth?
What would you guess is the difference between the total comp pkg (inc. pension, health, etc) of a Toyota worker in Japan, vs. a GM worker in America?
Toyota:$48
GM:$69
Big difference, right?
But guess what? Pensions AND health benefits are subsidized by the gov't in Japan. Hmmmm, it doesn't look like the playing field is quite level, does it?
How much is UAW labor in the total sticker price of a car?
8-10%.
How much did the total comp pkg of a UAW worker increase between 2006 and 2007?
It didn't - it went backward, due to labor concessions insisted upon by mgmt "or we'll have to leave town".(2007 est. total avg comp -$68)
How much did the total comp of the GM CEO increase between 2006 and 2007?
+64%(2007 comp -$15.7 million)
Now, I ask you again, who might benefit most from exploiting class resentment by pushing the myth that "Unions are pushing business out"?
More importantly, who loses the most?
Just curious, Hip. Which do you think hurts GM's competitiveness more, present day labor costs or servicing over 100 $billion$ in union pension obligations? I'll give ya a hint, you pointed out the one being short-sheeted, and it's being done to feed the 600 pound hog. The majority of todays union workers, public and private, are nothing but Bernie Madoff fodder, the last guys in on a crumbling ponzi scheme. And like the people of Detroit, it's their own normalcy bias and support for inept, near sighted management that is to blame.

What's your take on this? Looks like Detroit revisited:

"The Illinois legislature has approved a "fix" to the state's woefully underfunded pensions (35% funded, worst in the nation)---if that's what you want to call it.
The state is patching a $100+ billion hole with some modest cuts to retiree benefits and higher contributions from the state. Alas, the law gives those contributions higher priority than -- um -- schools, hospitals, parks, maintenance, police and fire protection.
"'This isn't a reform, but rather a fiscal death sentence," says a recent Op-Ed by Kenneth Griffin, CEO of the Chicago-based hedge fund Citadel. "The state would be stuck with pension funding requirements that squeeze out all other priorities and tie the hands of future leaders.'"

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#173218 Dec 4, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You do realize, I hope, that all you do is whine.
Buck off, worthless troll. You have no idea what yer blabbering about.
Chris Clearwater

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#173219 Dec 4, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Buck off, worthless troll. You have no idea what yer blabbering about.
Give him the white sheet bro. Nothing he says matters. His word is worthless.
Lost In Transition

United States

#173220 Dec 4, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Well then I'm in the same freakin' corner. Because reportedly, <some>
companies, as well as members of Congress and their staff are NOT required to sign up in the ACA exchanges like the rest of us are MANDATED to do, under penalty of fines imposed by the IRS.
If this is true, and if this ACA law is everything barry claims, that seems a bit lop sided.
The whole attempt to blurr what is becoming increasingly apparent reminds me of this bit from American historian Edmund Morgan:

"Ideology consists in opinions to sustain [the people's] consent.
The few who govern take care to nourish those opinions. No easy task, for the opinions needed to make the many submit to the few are often at variance with observable fact. The success of government thus requires the acceptance of fictions, requires the willing suspension of disbelief, requires some to believe that the emperor is clothed even though we can clearly see that he is not."

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#173221 Dec 4, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I had a carpet cleaning franchise for a couple of years in the early 90s, and my experience with folks with money was the same as yours.
I try and shop local whenever possible. I usually hit 20% of my grocery budget, and the only way my beef could be more local is if I raised it in the back yard. With other stuff I'll trade at locally owned franchises of national brands when I can (Ace Hardware, etc).
You can begin to question the effort when you buy something from a local business on Tuesday and run them on Saturday at Walmart with a card loaded up from various and sundry departments. I get the same feeling when I see my union neighbor shopping there the same week he had been picketing in front of a business for 'unfair labor practices'.
There's nothing new about the impact of the Walmarts of the world on local businesses except that Walmart impacts so many different areas. I'm pretty sure it's been going on since the mail order giants of the late 19th century (Sears, Montgomery Ward) started opening stores. On groceries in particular, the threat of large chains is one of the themes of John Steinbeck's novel "The Winter of Our Discontent", published in 1961.
I see that myself where local businesses stock up at the superstores. i have to shake my head. I'm in a trade orginization and they routinely make deals with the giants for special deals for the industry I'm in. I always tell them no thanks I'll buy from local business owners.

Sometimes as a business owner you may be in the same situation as CC described. Starting out I had to be thrifty. When i started making profits I started utilizing local business, and i also made sure they knew why. There are advantages to using locals as i'm sure your aware. Better service and better quality.

Good an interesting post WW....

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#173222 Dec 4, 2013
I believe Congress can get out because they are under an employer plan from the federal gov.

Now that Harry Reid knows whats in it, he's opting out.

http://news.yahoo.com/harry-reid-exempts-some...

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#173223 Dec 4, 2013
Lost In Transition wrote:
<quoted text>
Just curious, Hip. Which do you think hurts GM's competitiveness more, present day labor costs or servicing over 100 $billion$ in union pension obligations? I'll give ya a hint, you pointed out the one being short-sheeted, and it's being done to feed the 600 pound hog. The majority of todays union workers, public and private, are nothing but Bernie Madoff fodder, the last guys in on a crumbling ponzi scheme. And like the people of Detroit, it's their own normalcy bias and support for inept, near sighted management that is to blame.
What's your take on this? Looks like Detroit revisited:
"The Illinois legislature has approved a "fix" to the state's woefully underfunded pensions (35% funded, worst in the nation)---if that's what you want to call it.
The state is patching a $100+ billion hole with some modest cuts to retiree benefits and higher contributions from the state. Alas, the law gives those contributions higher priority than -- um -- schools, hospitals, parks, maintenance, police and fire protection.
"'This isn't a reform, but rather a fiscal death sentence," says a recent Op-Ed by Kenneth Griffin, CEO of the Chicago-based hedge fund Citadel. "The state would be stuck with pension funding requirements that squeeze out all other priorities and tie the hands of future leaders.'"
Another good post LIT........

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#173224 Dec 4, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I don't think I can explain it any better than I did. Larry understood it, I think you just are looking for a raveled thread that isn't there. Congress, their staff and unions are exempt from Obamacare. That means they will never have to follow the rules of government healthcare. Now if you don't want to call it an exemption, call it something else, I don't care, but please explain to me why they are different than anyone else. I'll wait.
Congress and staff are not, in fact, exempt, or any other word, from the ACA. You are the victim, and now a conduit, of right-wing media misinformation. Since you are proud about reading the law so as to be properly informed, it is only fair to point out that for some reason you have accepted this blatant but widely circulated untruth as fact without investigation.

If you choose to investigate, you'll find that the only reason this is a story at all was due to a bald ploy by your former Sen Grassley to set up a "controversy", and all he did was create a hardship for staffers, who are just working stiffs without the resources of a US senator to avoid the hardships imposed by his cynical action.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/state...

As for the alleged, "union exemption", this also is exactly the kind of thing the right-wing media thrives on - an item with too many fussy little details for it's viewers, but leaving out those those same details create just enough dust to make their mudpies.

Bottom line - if you have any information outside of Fox, Newsmax, or Breitbart, that underscores this "union exemption" charge, I'd be pleased to hear it.
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Hip I have to say that you picturing me going into a corner and going "harumph" is disturbing, and it's just not me. That felt like a personal affront, but you don't do that, right?
When asked to clarify where the "knife-twist" is as it pertains specifically to UPS union employees, you gave a couple of vague and specious responses that didn't address your charge. When pressed further, you chose to stone-wall, twice.

It is what it is. If you perceive an accurate summary of the exchange as a personal affront, I'd regret your sensitivity, and suggest you visit the Under Armor website for an outlet near you.
Chris Clearwater

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#173225 Dec 4, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Congress and staff are not, in fact, exempt, or any other word, from the ACA. You are the victim, and now a conduit, of right-wing media misinformation. Since you are proud about reading the law so as to be properly informed, it is only fair to point out that for some reason you have accepted this blatant but widely circulated untruth as fact without investigation.
If you choose to investigate, you'll find that the only reason this is a story at all was due to a bald ploy by your former Sen Grassley to set up a "controversy", and all he did was create a hardship for staffers, who are just working stiffs without the resources of a US senator to avoid the hardships imposed by his cynical action.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/state...
As for the alleged, "union exemption", this also is exactly the kind of thing the right-wing media thrives on - an item with too many fussy little details for it's viewers, but leaving out those those same details create just enough dust to make their mudpies.
Bottom line - if you have any information outside of Fox, Newsmax, or Breitbart, that underscores this "union exemption" charge, I'd be pleased to hear it.
<quoted text>When asked to clarify where the "knife-twist" is as it pertains specifically to UPS union employees, you gave a couple of vague and specious responses that didn't address your charge. When pressed further, you chose to stone-wall, twice.
It is what it is. If you perceive an accurate summary of the exchange as a personal affront, I'd regret your sensitivity, and suggest you visit the Under Armor website for an outlet near you.
Guess what Hip, this nation is full of working stiffs that will get a fine no special deal and nobody in DC gives a crap. The reason libs like you hate Fox News is because they dare to point stuff like this out. Now back to your usual bashing and the beat does go on.

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