“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165694 Jul 30, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Obama was all wrong about making statements about the Zimmerman case. But here is what I think happens Bobbin. You focus on that and it is easy for Willie to say in effect "man you're dumb" The really important stuff gets covered over. have you noticed in his speeches about the economy he is playing the person kept in the dark? He says "oh my God look what is happening" as if someone else made it happen not his foolish ideas for the last five years. The rich are richer the poor are poorer and the middle class is becoming poor and it's his fault.
He has lied about Benghazi and now says it's a phony scandal and the people who support him go "Uh-huh, uh-huh" Talk about the dumbing down of America.
First of all, haven't said bobin was dumb, not directly and not in effect.

Second of all, what part of "here's a hint - my reference to the script had nothing to do with the opinions expressed about Obama et al." do you not understand

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165695 Jul 30, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>...
As far as information goes, one thing you have to keep in mind on subjects like politics - different people can look at ALL the information and come to different conclusions.
I totally agree. I think I mentioned something about our world views forming the basis of that some months ago. Where we were raised, our family/parenting style, educational background, income levels, belief/faith system all are part of shaping our world view. Our world view is what we use to sieve the information that is constantly coming at us.
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>
Other people claim to be better informed (back to the aforementioned spammer and his incessant cut and pastes), but when you look at where they are getting their information it turns out the overwhelming majority of it is from some of those sources in lockstep.
Which is why sharing and debating information with people of differing worldviews through debate is so important.

I don't agree with you in the main but I know we share a fair amount of common ground. I do have respect for you most of the time because I know you are well read and you have a good grasp of modern facts and lay them on your knowledge of history. I imagine that some of the reasons we can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions are: age differences, educational differences, religious differences, regional differences, economic differences, gender differences, and I am sure plenty of others that skip me at this moment.
I have the great pleasure to work with lots of men in their 60s who think differently than me. They have had their careers and now work as school bus drivers to stay out of their wives hair and keep busy. We get along quite well but we always razz each other over politics. The one we call "The Professor" has a Ph.D. in history and taught history in Conn. for years. He is the king of our liberal contingency. Another man I work with was at Kent State during the Kent State Massacre and a friend of his was killed there. He is our resident government conspiracy theorist. Those of us from California tend to be conservative, those from New England, Wisconsin, and Minnesota tend to be liberal, evangelical Christians tend to be conservative no matter where they are from but that is changing with the younger generation. Catholics can go either liberal or conservative. The men who fought in Vietnam tend to be conservative. The divorced single women, en masse,tend to be liberal unless they are evangelical.

I don't see Bobintexas as a spammer. I see him as frustrated because he feels that he has given it his best shot and you can't/won't hear him and now you are both taking pot shots at each other. You are both smart men who see things differently and are currently under each other's skin. You both have a lot to add to the dialogue. I learn a lot from you both.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165696 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
The President is a biracial young man from a privileged background. He has been around the social elite much of his life. Him identifying with Trayvon or the black struggle is ridiculous. Half of him is white and the other half is African. Most of his idea of being black in America came from his white mother, his white grandparents, and collegiate propaganda.
Interesting comment.

Did you get that from Louis Farrakhan?
uidiotRaceMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

#165697 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I totally agree. I think I mentioned something about our world views forming the basis of that some months ago. Where we were raised, our family/parenting style, educational background, income levels, belief/faith system all are part of shaping our world view. Our world view is what we use to sieve the information that is constantly coming at us.
<quoted text>
Which is why sharing and debating information with people of differing worldviews through debate is so important.
I don't agree with you in the main but I know we share a fair amount of common ground. I do have respect for you most of the time because I know you are well read and you have a good grasp of modern facts and lay them on your knowledge of history. I imagine that some of the reasons we can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions are: age differences, educational differences, religious differences, regional differences, economic differences, gender differences, and I am sure plenty of others that skip me at this moment.
I have the great pleasure to work with lots of men in their 60s who think differently than me. They have had their careers and now work as school bus drivers to stay out of their wives hair and keep busy. We get along quite well but we always razz each other over politics. The one we call "The Professor" has a Ph.D. in history and taught history in Conn. for years. He is the king of our liberal contingency. Another man I work with was at Kent State during the Kent State Massacre and a friend of his was killed there. He is our resident government conspiracy theorist. Those of us from California tend to be conservative, those from New England, Wisconsin, and Minnesota tend to be liberal, evangelical Christians tend to be conservative no matter where they are from but that is changing with the younger generation. Catholics can go either liberal or conservative. The men who fought in Vietnam tend to be conservative. The divorced single women, en masse,tend to be liberal unless they are evangelical.
I don't see Bobintexas as a spammer. I see him as frustrated because he feels that he has given it his best shot and you can't/won't hear him and now you are both taking pot shots at each other. You are both smart men who see things differently and are currently under each other's skin. You both have a lot to add to the dialogue. I learn a lot from you both.
U forgot some thing . BWHHAHHAHAAA

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165698 Jul 30, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Obama was all wrong about making statements about the Zimmerman case.... have you noticed in his speeches about the economy he is playing the person kept in the dark? He says "oh my God look what is happening" as if someone else made it happen not his foolish ideas for the last five years. The rich are richer the poor are poorer and the middle class is becoming poor and it's his fault.
He has lied about Benghazi and now says it's a phony scandal and the people who support him go "Uh-huh, uh-huh" Talk about the dumbing down of America.
Yes, yes, yes. It frustrates me to no end.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165699 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the danger of posting on topix day in and day out is that we can get tired and frustrated with the constant arguing and cease to argue our points of difference clearly. It is easy to slip into zingers and try to find those chinks to sink our wordy daggers in. I am as guilty as anybody of this.
When it comes to Obama and his culpability regarding some of the national problems he created by weighing in on the case, sometimes it is not what you say (although he said too much) it can also be what you don't say. Why did he not comment on anything that the New Black Panthers were up to? When he came to the lectern and talked about Trayvon being his son, or being him, he could have gone on to criticize Jackson, Sharpton and the New Black Panthers and their reward offered for Zimmerman or their racial divisiveness in an already tense situation. He did nothing but identify with Trayvon and never tried to calm the anger that was being fomented in the nation's black community by those panderers and media whores. He was a community organizer and is well aware of how to create a movement and I believe he either dropped the ball or intentionally gave it a push down the mountain.
He clearly identified himself as black in this situation and divorced himself from the idea that he is the President of all the people, of Trayvon and George Zimmerman
1. When the New Black Panthers dream of glory, they lust for popularity in the black community equal to one twentieth of the attention given them by conservative media outlets (and, at least at one time, Russian media).

2. Whether you agree with them or not, connecting Sharpton and Jackson to the New Black Panthers is a whole lot like linking anyone who suggested that Zimmerman should be found not guilty to the KKK. To do so AT BEST suggests an incredibly naive, Pollyanna-ish view of the role of race in 21st century American society. I think this is true even if you think Jackson and Sharpton are frequently yelling 'forward - into the past.'

3. To content that Obama contributed to the problem is to read volumes more than what he actually said into his remarks. Now, if you START with the assumption that Obama is the worst. President. ever., you've got a head start on it. If talk of race annoys you, if you have (at best) an incredibly naive, Pollyanna-ish view of the role of race in 21st century American society, if you just don't want to be bothered by that stuff - well, it's easy to do.

4. If I'd been advising the President, I'd have probably told him to stay out of it. That said (and in fact the ONLY thing I've said about his remarks) is that I understand where he was coming from.

5. Being old enough to remember a) the explosion of the cities in the 60s, and b) the violence in multiple cities across the nation in the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict, I have to ask - WHAT national problems?

Some people appear to have bought into fear mongering over the verdict so deeply that they are determined to make far more out of the aftermath than is really there.

Sharpton and Jackson created no divisions in American society by grabbing onto this case, although it's probably fair to say they exploited them. Those divisions exist, and have existed as long as the Stars and Stripes have been flying. Nothing Obama said condoned or encouraged a violent reaction to the verdict.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165700 Jul 30, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Interesting comment.
Did you get that from Louis Farrakhan?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I may be drawing the same conclusions but no. I actually was looking at some of the pictures from Obama's youth and realizing that he grew up with mostly white kids and native Hawaiian kids when he was here. He always went to very nice schools, he traveled the world. He never knew the ghetto or the barrio. I am sure when he went to Africa and Indonesia he was very popular because of being a foreigner. He has always, or at least for most of his life, known privilege. He is no Trayvon and is not "down with the cause". In all his potos he is the picture of coolness and privilege.

I think he grew up in a very politically charged extremely liberal/leftist atmosphere. It colors everything he thinks and does. I think it is so deeply ingrained in him and he has had so little experience around anyone who thinks differently than him that it has made him very flat and one dimensional.
Deedeedeee

Dallas, TX

#165701 Jul 30, 2013
Test
uidiotRaceMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

#165702 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I may be drawing the same conclusions but no. I actually was looking at some of the pictures from Obama's youth and realizing that he grew up with mostly white kids and native Hawaiian kids when he was here. He always went to very nice schools, he traveled the world. He never knew the ghetto or the barrio. I am sure when he went to Africa and Indonesia he was very popular because of being a foreigner. He has always, or at least for most of his life, known privilege. He is no Trayvon and is not "down with the cause". In all his potos he is the picture of coolness and privilege.
I think he grew up in a very politically charged extremely liberal/leftist atmosphere. It colors everything he thinks and does. I think it is so deeply ingrained in him and he has had so little experience around anyone who thinks differently than him that it has made him very flat and one dimensional.
DDid Pres O. mentioned in his later years that he lived in Chicago , and acknowledge his hood?

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165703 Jul 30, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>
...Those divisions exist, and have existed as long as the Stars and Stripes have been flying. Nothing Obama said condoned or encouraged a violent reaction to the verdict.
I am no Polly Anna. And I think you said that to get some kind of rise out of me. Bait?

He is The President and he is the first half black president. He has the ear and heart of the black community. He could make real and lasting differences and yet he remains silent on the important stuff and goads the ignorant and those with a bone to pick. His policies do nothing to help black America and in truth hurts them at a time when they have nothing more they can give. If businesses are not profitable in those communities then they won't hire. If they won't hire then the children and young families have no hope of getting ahead unless they can escape to somewhere else. The young men of those communities turn to gangs and fully expect to be dead by 22. Why why why is this acceptable? Why is this ignored? It has nothing to do with not enough government money being thrown their way. Plenty of money has gone into those areas and the result has been devastating. The more money pumped in the more the problems were exacerbated. People lose their dignity, like bears who get used to living off trash cans, they lose their ability to care and feed themselves. They cease to be a community and begin fighting over who gets given the bigger share of the handouts. Charity works when people are allowed to keep their dignity and earning one's own way is a huge incentive for further success.
The government is turning all of us into bears fighting over its handouts all the while increasing its power over our lives.

I am going to ignore the Sharpton, Jackson, Black Panther quip because I see it as another silly intent to bait me.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165704 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see Bobintexas as a spammer. I see him as frustrated because he feels that he has given it his best shot and you can't/won't hear him and now you are both taking pot shots at each other. You are both smart men who see things differently and are currently under each other's skin. You both have a lot to add to the dialogue. I learn a lot from you both.
bobintx is not the spammer I was referring to, although there is a comparison between some of that useless spammer's lines (something about zombies is du jour) and his seeming inability to post without his clever rejoinders like Obama blinders.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165705 Jul 30, 2013
And one more thing, Willie, he (Obama) glorifies the sports stars, the movie stars, the music industry stars who's movies, music, and lifestyle have wreaked havoc in the black and poor communities around this nation and infected us all with their lavish corruptions. He is so busy entertaining the celebs he isn't seeing the everyday men and women who make this country run. They need jobs, they need their dignity, they need to feel that they stand a chance of getting ahead.
He just makes sure he leaves us all with just enough change in our pockets for cupcakes.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165706 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I may be drawing the same conclusions but no. I actually was looking at some of the pictures from Obama's youth and realizing that he grew up with mostly white kids and native Hawaiian kids when he was here. He always went to very nice schools, he traveled the world. He never knew the ghetto or the barrio. I am sure when he went to Africa and Indonesia he was very popular because of being a foreigner. He has always, or at least for most of his life, known privilege. He is no Trayvon and is not "down with the cause". In all his potos he is the picture of coolness and privilege.
I think he grew up in a very politically charged extremely liberal/leftist atmosphere. It colors everything he thinks and does. I think it is so deeply ingrained in him and he has had so little experience around anyone who thinks differently than him that it has made him very flat and one dimensional.
So, he "needs to know the ghetto" to be properly black?

Interesting...

All of what you say may be true to some extent or another - but I don't think that precludes Obama identifying as black for legitimate reasons (not just political expediency). I say that based on what I know of the experiences of mixed race people (my age and the age of my children).

I don't see how the "logic" you're using here is all that different from the logic used by liberals to characterize black conservatives as Uncle Toms.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165707 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I am no Polly Anna. And I think you said that to get some kind of rise out of me. Bait?
He is The President and he is the first half black president. He has the ear and heart of the black community. He could make real and lasting differences and yet he remains silent on the important stuff and goads the ignorant and those with a bone to pick. His policies do nothing to help black America and in truth hurts them at a time when they have nothing more they can give. If businesses are not profitable in those communities then they won't hire. If they won't hire then the children and young families have no hope of getting ahead unless they can escape to somewhere else. The young men of those communities turn to gangs and fully expect to be dead by 22. Why why why is this acceptable? Why is this ignored? It has nothing to do with not enough government money being thrown their way. Plenty of money has gone into those areas and the result has been devastating. The more money pumped in the more the problems were exacerbated. People lose their dignity, like bears who get used to living off trash cans, they lose their ability to care and feed themselves. They cease to be a community and begin fighting over who gets given the bigger share of the handouts. Charity works when people are allowed to keep their dignity and earning one's own way is a huge incentive for further success.
The government is turning all of us into bears fighting over its handouts all the while increasing its power over our lives.
I am going to ignore the Sharpton, Jackson, Black Panther quip because I see it as another silly intent to bait me.
There was no attempt to bait you in my post; those are my opinions.

Are there things I think Obama (and Sharpton, and Jackson) could and should say to the black community that he's not saying?

You betcha.

That's as far as we're in agreement, however. I am damned serious when I say that if you don't understand why a half-black person identifies as black you've probably got a naive, Pollyanna-ish view of race in 21st century American society.

I am equally serious when I say there's no reasonable basis to compare or link together Sharpton and Jackson to the New Black Panthers. I think it DOES compare to linking, say, people who thought Zimmerman was innocent to the KKK.

Bait? Not even close.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165708 Jul 30, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>So, he "needs to know the ghetto" to be properly black?
Interesting...
And then you stoop to this crap.
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>
All of what you say may be true to some extent or another - but I don't think that precludes Obama identifying as black for legitimate reasons (not just political expediency). I say that based on what I know of the experiences of mixed race people (my age and the age of my children).
I don't see how the "logic" you're using here is all that different from the logic used by liberals to characterize black conservatives as Uncle Toms.
He tries to relate to them as if he came from the ghetto. That is my problem with him. He is not, was not, cannot be a kid from that life and does not need to be in order to impact them for good. He can make policies that are helpful to businesses in those communities instead of funding stupid governmental agencies. He is a great example of a black father who married a successful black woman and has been active in raising his daughters. That is powerful in and of itself. He went through a time of partying and drugs but left it behind to be a responsible adult. He finished school and his education has gotten him quite far in life. He is proof that a black man from a single mom can get to the top.
Political differences aside, he has much to say to the black community and to all communities without trying to be the cool hipster. He could be the element for real change back to strong black families and cleaning up the violence that is destroying people's lives.

I think in reality he sees himself as an outsider in the black community and pays them just enough lip service to gain their votes and to be the one who controls the bees that buzz and swarm to his defense.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165709 Jul 30, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>There was no attempt to bait you in my post; those are my opinions.
Are there things I think Obama (and Sharpton, and Jackson) could and should say to the black community that he's not saying?
You betcha.
That's as far as we're in agreement, however. I am damned serious when I say that if you don't understand why a half-black person identifies as black you've probably got a naive, Pollyanna-ish view of race in 21st century American society.
I am equally serious when I say there's no reasonable basis to compare or link together Sharpton and Jackson to the New Black Panthers. I think it DOES compare to linking, say, people who thought Zimmerman was innocent to the KKK.
Bait? Not even close.
My niece is half black and a lesbian. She is 29. She was raised by her white mom and my white brother. She met her father this year for the first time. Her black grandmother wanted nothing to do with her. Her white siblings, who are her half brother and sister, and her white cousins (my kids) are the kids she was raised with. Obama has a half sister who is white and that is who he was raised with. She has black half brothers and sisters that she also just recently met. They are uneducated, uncomfortable in any world but the ghetto and never finished school. I see very very few pictures of her with other black people. Her friends are multi ethnic (Asian, Mexican, white) as well as a combination of the evangelical community she was raised with and the LGBT community that she identifies with. But she sees herself and lives as white.
Sorry, Barry was raised in a white family and spent most of his life into young adulthood in that environment. He was black when he went to Africa but not full time.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165710 Jul 30, 2013
Alright, my eyes are tired of staring at this computer screen and I have tons to do. I will have to respond to your posts later Willie.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#165711 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
And then you stoop to this crap.
<quoted text>
He tries to relate to them as if he came from the ghetto. That is my problem with him. He is not, was not, cannot be a kid from that life and does not need to be in order to impact them for good. He can make policies that are helpful to businesses in those communities instead of funding stupid governmental agencies. He is a great example of a black father who married a successful black woman and has been active in raising his daughters. That is powerful in and of itself. He went through a time of partying and drugs but left it behind to be a responsible adult. He finished school and his education has gotten him quite far in life. He is proof that a black man from a single mom can get to the top.
Political differences aside, he has much to say to the black community and to all communities without trying to be the cool hipster. He could be the element for real change back to strong black families and cleaning up the violence that is destroying people's lives.
I think in reality he sees himself as an outsider in the black community and pays them just enough lip service to gain their votes and to be the one who controls the bees that buzz and swarm to his defense.
I still don't see how your speculation about the degree of sincerity of Obama's claim on blackness differs a bit from liberal speculation about black conservatives.

Now, Obama is a politician. He's done some things (even if they don't go as far as your exaggerated '[trying to act as if] he came from the ghetto) that strike me as no more or no less sincere than, oh, a silver-spoon mouthed Yale educated Kennebunkport cowboy going back to the ranch to clear brush.

Now, you or I or any given American may relate more to one contrived attempt to be 'common' than the other - but we as Americans should really learn to get over being shocked or disgusted when a politician acts like a politician even if we do not belong to the constituency being appealed to.
Roberta G

United States

#165712 Jul 30, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Willie, I am not positive where you are going with this but I know what bugs me. It is a universal problem. Very few people have the time or take the time to dig deeper into the news of the day or the history of the past. We are guilty of arguing from soundbites and surface articles. America and the world have gotten lazy when it comes to taking in information and being able to absorb it for nuances. We no longer ask ourselves "what did this author leave out and why" or "What is the purpose of this story coming out now". It is a dying art and even when more of us did it, it was not common. Group think and group speak have become the norm. All the news talking heads regurgitate each other's talking points. You hear the same catch words and phrases from the President, his advisers, and the talking heads on a daily basis. Turn to Fox news and conservative radio and you get the same thing from the Right. The polarization of today seems to mean that we must be in lockstep either on the Left or the Right. No room for individual variations or fine tuning of beliefs. So, in taking a guess at your script remark, this is the stab I have made. I hope I have not slashed too blindly.
Well said, Perrier.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#165713 Jul 30, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>So, he "needs to know the ghetto" to be properly black?
Interesting...
All of what you say may be true to some extent or another - but I don't think that precludes Obama identifying as black for legitimate reasons (not just political expediency). I say that based on what I know of the experiences of mixed race people (my age and the age of my children).
I don't see how the "logic" you're using here is all that different from the logic used by liberals to characterize black conservatives as Uncle Toms.
So funny. When you put what I said in quotes and added "to be properly black" I got an instant flash of Chris Matthews and Piers Morgan. There is nothing about anything I said that implied "properly black". What does "properly black" even mean?
I did not say Obama would not identify as black. What I did say is he lived and grew up in a world of privilege that was pretty white and would have identified as more white than black. Growing up in Hawaii was not racially oppressive in the late 70s and 80's. It wasn't like that in California either. His identity with inner city blacks is not through personal experience.
I didn't lump Sharpton or Jackson into the New Black Panthers in the way you suggested. All I said was that each has its claws in the black community and all are media whores.

Even I identified with Trayvon's parents and my 17 year old, rap lovin', pant sagging, tattoo sporting, white boy son with Trayvon. You don't have to be black to put yourself in their terrible position or realize that boys out with friends can make very stupid mistakes. They are dumb as a box of rocks with boat loads of testosterone and teenage angst. They, given the right circumstances, are volatile and very unpredictable.

What I am saying, and continue to believe, is that Obama really doesn't give a rat's hairy behind about how his policies affect average Americans from any walk of life, not the ghetto and not the suburbs. He has never been Joe Average American. Oh, he cares about a story that pops up here and there but beyond that it doesn't make its way into his daily concerns. The only thing he cares about is the policies and agendas that come out of university campuses from people who only know an insulated life.



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