“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#164514 Jul 8, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
And Willie, thank you for your service (and for your ability as a walking encyclopedia). It must have been a tough time to be in the service with so much animosity aimed at the military.
I didn't experience a whole lot of animosity ... a couple of minor incidents in the first couple of years is all.

I certainly don't think of myself as a walking encyclopedia ... I'm just a guy interested enough in how the U.S. got it so wrong in Vietnam that I've read anything and everything I could get my hands on about it for the last thirty years.

As a matter of fact, I just finished a book by the general who served as the chief intelligence officer for General Westmoreland. I started it last summer, actually, but I got to a paragraph in the book where he attributed part of the reasons for our lack of success to the senior non-commissioned and junior officers (the 1st & 2nd Lieutenants and Captains).

The book kinda went flying across the room at that point, and I couldn't finish it until I cooled down.

Just look at the posts about Vietnam that have appeared here. You have one who is only interested in excoriating post-Kennedy Democratic presidents, another apologist for Kennedy, and one who only wishes to talk about the last of four Presidents to manage our involvement in that "damn little pissant country". In each of those posts there is a certain amount of truth - but not enough to form anything definitive.

It's really easy to read that document by the Kennedy Administration and think "gee, if he'd lived things would have been so different. Easy, that is, if you don't know that absolutely NONE of what he wanted to do was possible in that time frame, and that the team who advised Johnson was the same team advising Kennedy.
miner49er

Rupert, WV

#164515 Jul 8, 2013
"it was also the times these things took place"

That's a classic excuse, used often by the descendants of the slave masters who profited from the labor stolen from African slaves.

These countries still remember the US's involvement and hold us accountable for our military interventions.

To pretend otherwise is sad delusion.

In Iran, we're known as "The Great Satan" for the misery we brought to the people of that country.

"I get the same kind of rankled when Reagan is accused of creating the Mujahadeen/Taliban when in reality Jimmy Carter began arming them."

No doubt, Carter was involved during his last 6 months in office:

"On 3 July 1979, Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[2] Following the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in December Operation Storm-333 and installation of a more pro-Soviet president, Babrak Karmal, Carter announced, "The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War".[10]
President Reagan greatly expanded the program as part of the Reagan Doctrine of aiding anti-Soviet resistance movements abroad. To execute this policy, Reagan deployed CIA Special Activities Division paramilitary officers to equip the Mujihadeen forces against the Red Army."

But as the above quote shows "President Reagan greatly expanded the program as part of the Reagan Doctrine of aiding anti-Soviet resistance movements abroad. To ".

WWW, you may note the common thread of CIA involvement... Iran, Vietnam, Cuba, Afghanistan...

"I have a healthy amount of wishing us to stay out of the domestic squabbles of the world. Now, if we could get the other players to agree to that we would all be able to enjoy life. How do we get them to stay out?"

Pernrider, would you please speak with Bobin, he might be willing to hear your advice...

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164516 Jul 8, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>You can start the clock under Truman, since we financed the French war with cash subsidies and arms.
People in this thread sure do seem to be in a charitable mood, btw ... first Miner's attempt to portray Ho as reasonable enough for the U.S. to work with, your description of Nixon as something other than someone who was lying about Vietnam from before his election and never, ever quit.
You'll get no arguement with me, Nixon was a screw-up when it came to the Vietnam War, but at least he finally had the sense to get us out... we were only 58,238 dead soldiers too late.

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164517 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
"Our "boy king" screws up again... for the whole world to see."
Ewww, Bobin, do you want the US to intervene in Egypt?
The administration already has, that's why the protesters are against barry's administration.
miner49er wrote:
Do you want the US to support the military coup that deposed the denodraticly elected leader of Egypt?
Just like we did in Iran in 1953?
"The 1953 Iranian coup d'état (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[3]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran, and its head of government Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name 'Operation Boot') and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).[4][5] The coup saw the formation of a military government under Mohammad-Rez&#257; Sh&#257;h Pahlavi, who progressed from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979."
That turned out really well...
Let's try this again... Let Allah sort it out!
miner49er wrote:
Bobin, what do you have against democracy and freedom?
Nothing, I love what our Founding Fathers created.
miner49er wrote:
Or do you just have an unreasoning hatred of Obama?
I'll say it again, I love what our Founding Fathers created, obama doesn't. Therefore, I dislike almost everything about this administration's policies, and the man driving them.

I don't hate obama, he's just WRONG for the USA.

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164518 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
I have a healthy amount of wishing us to stay out of the domestic squabbles of the world. Now, if we could get the other players to agree to that we would all be able to enjoy life. How do we get them to stay out?"
Finally, you show a spark of common sense.
miner49er

Rupert, WV

#164519 Jul 8, 2013
"Nixon was a screw-up when it came to the Vietnam War, but at least he finally had the sense to get us out... "

Bobin, Nixon prolonged the war by torpedoing Johnson's peace initiative for political advantage over the Democrats... not to mention his unConstitutional war on Cambodia and Laos.
He ignored Congress and the Founding Fathers' Constitution and then lied about it.

Bobin, I still don't understand your position on Egypt...

You fault him because he didn't intervene as the protesters who supported the military-coup wanted?

But then you say: "The administration already has, that's why the protesters are against barry's administration.".

Then it's let Allah sort it out.

What action so you think Obama should have taken in Egypt?

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164520 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
Then it's let Allah sort it out.
What action so you think Obama should have taken in Egypt?
How about if he took the same action that he took on 9/11/12 in Benghazi... nothing?

The big difference, of course, in Benghazi, he should have acted to defend American lives, and he didn't. In Egypt, he shouldn't have acted to support Mohamed Morsi, Sharia Law and the Muslim Brotherhood, and he did, when it was none of our business.
miner49er

Crawley, WV

#164521 Jul 8, 2013
Bobin, thanks for the response.

"The big difference, of course, in Benghazi, he should have acted to defend American lives,"

What action should Obama have taken during the Benghazi attacks to "defend American lives"?

"In Egypt, he shouldn't have acted to support Mohamed Morsi, Sharia Law and the Muslim Brotherhood, and he did, when it was none of our business."

What specific action did Obama take that you think was "none of our business"?

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#164522 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
No doubt, Carter was involved during his last 6 months in office:
"On 3 July 1979, Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[2] Following the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in December Operation Storm-333 and installation of a more pro-Soviet president, Babrak Karmal, Carter announced, "The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War".[10]
President Reagan greatly expanded the program as part of the Reagan Doctrine of aiding anti-Soviet resistance movements abroad. To execute this policy, Reagan deployed CIA Special Activities Division paramilitary officers to equip the Mujihadeen forces against the Red Army."
But as the above quote shows "President Reagan greatly expanded the program as part of the Reagan Doctrine of aiding anti-Soviet resistance movements abroad. To ".
WWW, you may note the common thread of CIA involvement... Iran, Vietnam, Cuba, Afghanistan...
"I have a healthy amount of wishing us to stay out of the domestic squabbles of the world. Now, if we could get the other players to agree to that we would all be able to enjoy life. How do we get them to stay out?"
Pernrider, would you please speak with Bobin, he might be willing to hear your advice...
Miner
You need to check your dates for Jimmy Carter's Presidency. Reagan became President on Jan 20, 1981.
This thread is a good reminder of human nature. If you could get everyone here to get along and decide amongst themselves that they were going to operate the Bush is a Hero thread in a certain way there will still be squabbles and downright nastiness hashed round about. Throw in the trolls who come in or crazy leaders like Idiot (I secretly think he is the ruler of N. Korea) and you can see why there are no easy solutions. Humans are messy. We can be agreeable one day and disagreeable the next. Some are sociopaths and some are just mean because they believe that folks don't understand them and they have something to prove. Some want to control every little thing and want everyone to think their way and do things their way.

If all of us civilized folks can't get along for more than a day or two how do you propose to get the leaders of the world to do it? And even here, we get involved in each other's arguments. Do you think that is any less a problem in world affairs?

As long as there are humans you will have conflicts. As long as there are humans you will have wars and evil deeds, confusion and chaos. Not all humans can be reasoned with, as evidenced by Idiot. The world is an ugly messed up place and way too often the most evil people come to power. When they do, nothing and no one is safe.

Our world has become smaller and smaller with world travel. We all have ties to other countries either though business or friendships or even chat rooms on the internet. With those relationships comes the desire to help those that we know when they're in trouble. What would you do if you were a world leader and a friend of yours in another country asked for your help, told you that whole villages were being wiped out and they needed your countrymen to come save the day? Could you really turn your back? Even if it was to save some corporation in that country, those countries depend on the jobs and the $$ that come in from those corporations. Yes, corporate money is involved but so are the livelihoods of people in villages and cities and the economy in those countries.

You may dislike and distrust the CIA but there are very good men and women who are risking their lives to go into other countries and gather intel that keep you and I safe.

I don't know how to fix people meddling in each other's affairs let alone preventing countries from doing it.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#164523 Jul 8, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I didn't experience a whole lot of animosity ... a couple of minor incidents in the first couple of years is all.
I certainly don't think of myself as a walking encyclopedia ... I'm just a guy interested enough in how the U.S. got it so wrong in Vietnam that I've read anything and everything I could get my hands on about it for the last thirty years.
As a matter of fact, I just finished a book by the general who served as the chief intelligence officer for General Westmoreland. I started it last summer, actually, but I got to a paragraph in the book where he attributed part of the reasons for our lack of success to the senior non-commissioned and junior officers (the 1st & 2nd Lieutenants and Captains).
The book kinda went flying across the room at that point, and I couldn't finish it until I cooled down.
Just look at the posts about Vietnam that have appeared here. You have one who is only interested in excoriating post-Kennedy Democratic presidents, another apologist for Kennedy, and one who only wishes to talk about the last of four Presidents to manage our involvement in that "damn little pissant country". In each of those posts there is a certain amount of truth - but not enough to form anything definitive.
It's really easy to read that document by the Kennedy Administration and think "gee, if he'd lived things would have been so different. Easy, that is, if you don't know that absolutely NONE of what he wanted to do was possible in that time frame, and that the team who advised Johnson was the same team advising Kennedy.
I may not always agree with you but you never cease to bring an intelligent argument to the table. I appreciate being informed by you. I also appreciate that you take the time to delve into the heart of an issue that bugs you until you can find the information you need to put the pieces together for yourself.

My son is a SSgt in the Marines. He has been in some dangerous places doing dangerous things. He is about to start his last year, his twelfth. Eight of those have been as an EOD tech. He is, once again, out of the country. I worry about him every day even though this time he has been in friendly countries working with their troops. If I had read that book I think I would have thrown it too.
How can a coach blame the quarterback for doing what he was told to do?

What was this General's reasoning and conclusion regarding the non coms and 2nd Lts?

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#164524 Jul 8, 2013
BobinTX wrote:
<quoted text>
Finally, you show a spark of common sense.
That was my line not Miner's. Once again, because of the way Miner does things, it is almost impossible to discern who says what.
miner49er

Crawley, WV

#164525 Jul 8, 2013
"If all of us civilized folks can't get along for more than a day or two how do you propose to get the leaders of the world to do it? "

I'm an optimist, I think things are better than they've ever been.
Sure, ME unrest, conflicts hither and yon, nuke proliferation, etc.
But overall, the average human's lot in life has improved consistently over history.

"You may dislike and distrust the CIA but there are very good men and women who are risking their lives to go into other countries and gather intel "

Yes, I know some myself who gather and analyze intel... BUT they also understand the Rule of Law and insure that their activities conform to Constitutional limits.

It seems many at Langley may be a bit challenged in that regard...

Pernrider, thanks for you son's service, EOD is a demanding trade.

Of course the flag officers always blame the NCOs and butterbars... they're never willing to own their mistakes.

It's usually the senior NCOs that keep the unit functional and make the officers look good.

“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#164526 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
WWW, you may note the common thread of CIA involvement... Iran, Vietnam, Cuba, Afghanistan....
What's your point, exactly?
miner49er

Crawley, WV

#164528 Jul 8, 2013
Given their poor performance in Iran ('53), the Bay of Pigs ('61), Vietnam ('61) and even as recent as 9/11 and Benghazi the CIA has proven to be a poor instrument of American foreign policy.

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164529 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
Bobin, thanks for the response.
"The big difference, of course, in Benghazi, he should have acted to defend American lives,"
What action should Obama have taken during the Benghazi attacks to "defend American lives"?
We've discussed that ad nauseaum. If you still don't understand whay barry's options were, me repeating them won't help your reading comprehension either.
miner49er wrote:
"In Egypt, he shouldn't have acted to support Mohamed Morsi, Sharia Law and the Muslim Brotherhood, and he did, when it was none of our business."
What specific action did Obama take that you think was "none of our business"?
Ask an Egyptian why they're demonstrating against obama, or read the headlines. I'm not the media.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/egypt-obama-...

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/...

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164530 Jul 8, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
That was my line not Miner's. Once again, because of the way Miner does things, it is almost impossible to discern who says what.
Silly me, I should have realized that no post, or idea, of Miner's would contain any common sense.

And yes, the boy does make it easy to confuse his statements with other's. I guess I just proved that.

“zero nuclear weapons”

Since: Sep 08

Perryville

#164531 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
"Our "boy king" screws up again... for the whole world to see."
Ewww, Bobin, do you want the US to intervene in Egypt?
Do you want the US to support the military coup that deposed the denodraticly elected leader of Egypt?
Just like we did in Iran in 1953?
"The 1953 Iranian coup d'état (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[3]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran, and its head of government Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name 'Operation Boot') and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).[4][5] The coup saw the formation of a military government under Mohammad-Rez&#257; Sh&#257;h Pahlavi, who progressed from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979."
That turned out really well...
Bobin, what do you have against democracy and freedom?
Or do you just have an unreasoning hatred of Obama?
Do you know why it was done Iran's oil industry was nationalized and America and the British did not want it.

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164532 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
Given their poor performance in Iran ('53), the Bay of Pigs ('61), Vietnam ('61) and even as recent as 9/11 and Benghazi the CIA has proven to be a poor instrument of American foreign policy.
The CIA didn't blow it in Benghazi, those four American deaths were all directly attributable to pResident obama, and his incompetent appointees.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/201...

http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2013/...

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/05/...
miner49er

Crawley, WV

#164533 Jul 8, 2013
Bobin, it appears you have no answers...

From the link you posted:

"Four years later, Egyptians increasingly assail the U.S. for backing Islamist President Mohamed Morsi, the nation’s first democratically elected leader,"

Bobin, do you think it's wrong for the US to support "first democratically elected leader"?

From the link you posted:

"In Egypt, the president welcomed in 2009 with a cry of “Barack Obama, we love you,” is now seen by many as just another leader who puts American interests above Egypt’s needs."

Bobin, do you think it's wrong for the American President to "put American interests above Egypt’s needs"?

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

#164534 Jul 8, 2013
miner49er wrote:
Bobin, it appears you have no answers...
Obviously, no answers that you were capable of understanding.
miner49er wrote:
From the link you posted:
"Four years later, Egyptians increasingly assail the U.S. for backing Islamist President Mohamed Morsi, the nation’s first democratically elected leader,"
Bobin, do you think it's wrong for the US to support "first democratically elected leader"?
Do I think it's wrong... ABSOLUTELY!!! Sharia Law and the Muslim Brotherhood are not in our best interests... or Egypts. That's why the Egyptians removed Morsi from office. Besides, it's none of our business who the Egyptian's want as their leader. It's not like barry isn't having enough of his own problems leading our government.

Egyptians did not accept a President that trashed their elected government, their Constitution and was attempting to transform the country into something they did not want... ie: an Egyptian obama.
miner49er wrote:
From the link you posted:
"In Egypt, the president welcomed in 2009 with a cry of “Barack Obama, we love you,” is now seen by many as just another leader who puts American interests above Egypt’s needs."
Bobin, do you think it's wrong for the American President to "put American interests above Egypt’s needs"?
If that were the case, obama should have stuck with Hosni Mubarak, a proven U.S. ally. Instead barry supported the Muslim Brotherhood's man, Mohamed Morsi and Sharia Law.

Obviously you don't comprehend what I keep telling you, when it comes to Egypt and most of the M.E., "Let Allah sort it out".

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