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miner49er

Oakvale, WV

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#164485
Jul 7, 2013
 

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Pernie, I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
I don't dispute the terrible conflicts in SEA that led to millions of deaths over the last 100 years.

But the US had our chance to get on the right side of history with Ho Chi Minh in 1945 and instead we aligned ourselves with colonial French business interests (it was all abut natural resources including the Michelin rubber plantations).
Uncle Ho had helped defeat the Japanese (Remember Pearl Harbor?) and asked for US support acheiving Vietnamese independance...

"In April 1945 Ho met with the OSS agent Archimedes Patti and offered to provide intelligence to the allies provided that he could have "a line of communication with the allies." [22] The OSS agreed to this and later sent a military team of OSS members to train Ho's men and Ho himself was treated for malaria and dysentery by an OSS doctor.[23]
Following the August Revolution (1945) organized by the Viet Minh, Ho became Chairman of the Provisional Government (Premier of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam) and issued a Proclamation of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.[24] Although he convinced Emperor Bao Dai to abdicate, his government was not recognized by any country. He repeatedly petitioned American President Harry S. Truman for support for Vietnamese independence,[25] citing the Atlantic Charter, but Truman never responded."

A free and independent Vietnam would have offered America a democratic ally in Indochina to offset Red China.
Instead, we provided support to the French colonial interests who had dominated Vietnam since 1867.

So after WWII, the US sold 'ol Ho down the river... to support France's corporate oppression.

"Following the Japanese defeat, the French returned to take possession of their colony. Their entrance into Vietnam was only permitted by the Viet Minh after assurances had been given that the country would gain independence as part of the French Union. Discussions broke down between the two parties and in December 1946, the French shelled the city of Haiphong and forcibly reentered the capital, Hanoi."

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/vietnamwa...

Oh yes, Johnson escalated the war, the military-industrial complex made sure of that...

I could suggest a text that many have found informative, "The Pentagon Papers" By Daniel Ellsberg.

You might also want to research Robert McNamera, SecDef '61 -'68 and primary architect of the Vietnam War.
He recanted in 1995.

"McNamara's memoir, In Retrospect, published in 1995, presented an account and analysis of the Vietnam War from his point of view. According to his lengthy New York Times obituary, "[h]e concluded well before leaving the Pentagon that the war was futile, but he did not share that insight with the public until late in life. In 1995, he took a stand against his own conduct of the war, confessing in a memoir that it was 'wrong, terribly wrong.'" In return, he faced a "firestorm of scorn" at that time.[3]
The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara is a 2003 Errol Morris documentary consisting mostly of interviews with Robert McNamara and archival footage. In this documentary he referred to the Vietnam War and he said, "None of our allies supported us. Not Japan, not Germany, not Britain or France. If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

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#164487
Jul 7, 2013
 

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miner49er wrote:
Pernie, I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
I don't dispute the terrible conflicts in SEA that led to millions of deaths over the last 100 years.
But the US had our chance to get on the right side of history with Ho Chi Minh in 1945 and instead we aligned ourselves with colonial French business interests (it was all abut natural resources including the Michelin rubber plantations).
...
The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara is a 2003 Errol Morris documentary consisting mostly of interviews with Robert McNamara and archival footage. In this documentary he referred to the Vietnam War and he said, "None of our allies supported us. Not Japan, not Germany, not Britain or France. If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
I don't care what led up to Vietnam, my frustration with you has been that you were laying everything at the feet of Nixon without dealing with Johnson or Kennedy. The problem with Vietnam went all the way back to the end of WWII and the way the Allies partitioned Vietnam. No one is innocent and Ho was no saint. It's not just Good Year Rubber Company it was also the times these things took place. America was extremely and rightly fearful of Communism and it's rampant spread. Unfortunately it is much more like cancer than the flu and it is not easily stopped. We need to realize that so much of what makes the West arguably independent of tyrants and kings does not exist in other cultures. So much of the government we have established for ourselves comes through Western culture and history.

I get the same kind of rankled when Reagan is accused of creating the Mujahadeen/Taliban when in reality Jimmy Carter began arming them.

I hope the US sees a pattern with us and other countries setting up governments and taking sides in regional fights. I have not seen it turn out for good in my lifetime and in reading history I see that failure is a common theme (the only theme). We get involved in other's fights and we end up the bad guy. I am not a total isolationist but I have a healthy amount of wishing us to stay out of the domestic squabbles of the world. Now, if we could get the other players to agree to that we would all be able to enjoy life. How do we get them to stay out?

“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

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#164488
Jul 7, 2013
 

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miner49er wrote:
Pernie, I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
I don't dispute the terrible conflicts in SEA that led to millions of deaths over the last 100 years.
But the US had our chance to get on the right side of history with Ho Chi Minh in 1945 and instead we aligned ourselves with colonial French business interests (it was all abut natural resources including the Michelin rubber plantations).
In reading your post, I have to wonder a) how much you actually know about Ho, and b) how much you actually know about the post WWII era.

I ask because to naively claim the U.S. COULD have gotten on the right side of a USSR (and Chinese communist) trained revolutionary like Ho, suggests you don't know much about him.

To claim that our decision to aid the French was motivated by neo-colonial economic considerations alone demonstrates a profound lack of knowledge of the postwar period, particularly the track record of other USSR trained revolutionaries like Ho.

There are any number of things to criticize in U.S. policy and actions in Vietnam from 1945 forward, but what you're putting out here isn't even in the ballpark.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

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#164489
Jul 7, 2013
 
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>In reading your post, I have to wonder a) how much you actually know about Ho, and b) how much you actually know about the post WWII era.
I ask because to naively claim the U.S. COULD have gotten on the right side of a USSR (and Chinese communist) trained revolutionary like Ho, suggests you don't know much about him.
To claim that our decision to aid the French was motivated by neo-colonial economic considerations alone demonstrates a profound lack of knowledge of the postwar period, particularly the track record of other USSR trained revolutionaries like Ho.
There are any number of things to criticize in U.S. policy and actions in Vietnam from 1945 forward, but what you're putting out here isn't even in the ballpark.
I was hoping you'd chime in. Well said WWW.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

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#164490
Jul 7, 2013
 
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>In reading your post, I have to wonder a) how much you actually know about Ho, and b) how much you actually know about the post WWII era.
I ask because to naively claim the U.S. COULD have gotten on the right side of a USSR (and Chinese communist) trained revolutionary like Ho, suggests you don't know much about him.

To claim that our decision to aid the French was motivated by neo-colonial economic considerations alone demonstrates a profound lack of knowledge of the postwar period, particularly the track record of other USSR trained revolutionaries like Ho.
There are any number of things to criticize in U.S. policy and actions in Vietnam from 1945 forward, but what you're putting out here isn't even in the ballpark.
Miner, if I were you I'd respect Willie's knowledge of the Vietnam era generally and especially of the war itself. The man is not only a genuine Vietnam veteran himself, but also a walking encyclopedia on the subject. He's an expert. And Pernie is no slouch either.

“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

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#164491
Jul 7, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Miner, if I were you I'd respect Willie's knowledge of the Vietnam era generally and especially of the war itself. The man is not only a genuine Vietnam veteran himself, but also a walking encyclopedia on the subject. He's an expert. And Pernie is no slouch either.
I'm not a Vietnam vet. I went on active duty in December, 1973, by which time the U.S. had withdrawn virtually all combat troops.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

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#164492
Jul 7, 2013
 

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WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I'm not a Vietnam vet. I went on active duty in December, 1973, by which time the U.S. had withdrawn virtually all combat troops.
Well, we're sticking with walking encyclopedia and Veteran then.

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

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#164493
Jul 7, 2013
 

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Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not pro Vietnam War but I get tired of it being portrayed as only Nixon's war. There were two other Presidents involved. Cambodia also didn't start with Nixon but with Johnson. As to whether the war was illegal or legal?
Actually, Vietnam started with President Eisenhower, who took the war over when the North Vietnamese defeated the French. It was passed on to Kennedy, who kept it limited to advisors, training the South Vietnamese to fight. Johnson inherited it, and promptly escalated it so American troops were doing most of the fighting. Nixon took over, maintained it until he realized the war was a big loser, and ended our involvement, leaving the South vietnamese government to sink or swim. They sank.

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

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#164494
Jul 7, 2013
 

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WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I'm not a Vietnam vet. I went on active duty in December, 1973, by which time the U.S. had withdrawn virtually all combat troops.
So you're the guy who replaced me... I left active duty in 1972.
UiDiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

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#164495
Jul 7, 2013
 

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WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>In reading your post, I have to wonder a) how much you actually know about Ho, and b) how much you actually know about the post WWII era.
I ask because to naively claim the U.S. COULD have gotten on the right side of a USSR (and Chinese communist) trained revolutionary like Ho, suggests you don't know much about him.
To claim that our decision to aid the French was motivated by neo-colonial economic considerations alone demonstrates a profound lack of knowledge of the postwar period, particularly the track record of other USSR trained revolutionaries like Ho.
There are any umber of things to criticize in U.S. policy and actions in Vietnam from 1945 forward, but what you're putting out here isn't even in the ballpark.
Interjecting For Minder49. Come on WWW.
Do Tell how US plunder Vietnam's Oil resource and other commodities?
What did Bill MAher said about us Americans?
Know anything about US PNAC agendas, US MAnifest Destiny, USD/OIl Hegemony...
UiDiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

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#164496
Jul 7, 2013
 

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Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, we're sticking with walking encyclopedia and Veteran then.
I stick to Researching myself , WWW is half correct!

“Unemployed Bush 5.3 obama 8.7”

Since: Jul 10

Labor Participation Rate 63.0%

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#164497
Jul 7, 2013
 

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Our "boy king" screws up again... for the whole world to see.

"Demonstrators held signs that read "Egypt: A revolution not a coup" and others held signs with an 'X' over President Barack Obama's face. The anti-American sentiment stems from a perception by some that Obama was not supportive of the army's actions to overthrow Morsi."

"Some held signs showing Obama with a beard in an attempt to depict him as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood."

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/07...

“zero nuclear weapons”

Since: Sep 08

Perryville

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#164498
Jul 7, 2013
 
BobinTX wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, Vietnam started with President Eisenhower, who took the war over when the North Vietnamese defeated the French. It was passed on to Kennedy, who kept it limited to advisors, training the South Vietnamese to fight. Johnson inherited it, and promptly escalated it so American troops were doing most of the fighting. Nixon took over, maintained it until he realized the war was a big loser, and ended our involvement, leaving the South vietnamese government to sink or swim. They sank.
Presdent Kennedy had the right idea about Vietnam infact there is strong evidence that he wanted a total pullout by 65.

[SECTION] 1: CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
B. Recommendations.


We recommend that:
1. General Harkins review with Diem the military changes necessary to complete the military campaign in the Northern and Central areas (I, II, and III Corps) by the end of 1964, and in the Delta (IV Corps) by the end of 1965. This review would consider the need for such changes as:
a. A further shift of military emphasis and strength to the Delta (IV Corps).
b. An increase in the military tempo in all corps areas, so that all combat troops are in the field an average of 20 days out of 30 and static missions are ended.
c. Emphasis on "clear and hold operations" instead of terrain sweeps which have little permanent value.
d. The expansion of personnel in combat units to full authorized strength.
e. The training and arming of hamlet militia to an accelerated rate, especially in the Delta.
f. A consolidation of the strategic hamlet program, especially in the Delta, and action to insure that future strategic hamlets are not built until they can be protected, and until civic action programs can be introduced.

2. A program be established to train Vietnamese so that essential functions now performed by U.S. military personnel can be carried out by Vietnamese by the end of 1965. It should be possible to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel by that time.

3. In accordance with the program to train progressively Vietnamese to take over military functions, the Defense Department should announce in the very near future presently prepared plans to withdraw 1000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. This action should be explained in low key as an initial step in a long-term program to replace U.S. personnel with trained Vietnamese without impairment of the war effort.
UiDiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

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#164499
Jul 7, 2013
 

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nebka wrote:
<quoted text>
Presdent Kennedy had the right idea about Vietnam infact there is strong evidence that he wanted a total pullout by 65.
[SECTION] 1: CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
B. Recommendations.
We recommend that:
1. General Harkins review with Diem the military changes necessary to complete the military campaign in the Northern and Central areas (I, II, and III Corps) by the end of 1964, and in the Delta (IV Corps) by the end of 1965. This review would consider the need for such changes as:
a. A further shift of military emphasis and strength to the Delta (IV Corps).
b. An increase in the military tempo in all corps areas, so that all combat troops are in the field an average of 20 days out of 30 and static missions are ended.
c. Emphasis on "clear and hold operations" instead of terrain sweeps which have little permanent value.
d. The expansion of personnel in combat units to full authorized strength.
e. The training and arming of hamlet militia to an accelerated rate, especially in the Delta.
f. A consolidation of the strategic hamlet program, especially in the Delta, and action to insure that future strategic hamlets are not built until they can be protected, and until civic action programs can be introduced.
2. A program be established to train Vietnamese so that essential functions now performed by U.S. military personnel can be carried out by Vietnamese by the end of 1965. It should be possible to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel by that time.
3. In accordance with the program to train progressively Vietnamese to take over military functions, the Defense Department should announce in the very near future presently prepared plans to withdraw 1000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. This action should be explained in low key as an initial step in a long-term program to replace U.S. personnel with trained Vietnamese without impairment of the war effort.
You not that stupid, like most us Amwricans, JFK is not the head honcho of the establishment and have no power to decidw, as most Presidents are just puppets, behind the Curtian, the US Imperail directive makes decision for country! JFK got assassinated for many reasons, as he irked the US imperial Directive ! Follow the the bloodly money trial. Yea you gonna say it A cONSPIRACY! AS sOME cONSPIRACY ARE NOT theory

“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

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#164500
Jul 7, 2013
 
BobinTX wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, Vietnam started with President Eisenhower, who took the war over when the North Vietnamese defeated the French. It was passed on to Kennedy, who kept it limited to advisors, training the South Vietnamese to fight. Johnson inherited it, and promptly escalated it so American troops were doing most of the fighting. Nixon took over, maintained it until he realized the war was a big loser, and ended our involvement, leaving the South vietnamese government to sink or swim. They sank.
You can start the clock under Truman, since we financed the French war with cash subsidies and arms.

People in this thread sure do seem to be in a charitable mood, btw ... first Miner's attempt to portray Ho as reasonable enough for the U.S. to work with, your description of Nixon as something other than someone who was lying about Vietnam from before his election and never, ever quit.
UiDiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

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#164501
Jul 7, 2013
 
BobinTX wrote:
Our "boy king" screws up again... for the whole world to see.
"Demonstrators held signs that read "Egypt: A revolution not a coup" and others held signs with an 'X' over President Barack Obama's face. The anti-American sentiment stems from a perception by some that Obama was not supportive of the army's actions to overthrow Morsi."
"Some held signs showing Obama with a beard in an attempt to depict him as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood."
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/07...
U believe in OUR US corporatist faux media too much, blind! Bill Maher the political commenter had made a correct assessment about most Americans, sad fact! SHeeeopples are you! BWHAHHAHAHAA

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

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#164502
Jul 7, 2013
 
Great cover version of the original by Lipps, Inc

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Since: Apr 07

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#164503
Jul 7, 2013
 
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I'm not a Vietnam vet. I went on active duty in December, 1973, by which time the U.S. had withdrawn virtually all combat troops.
Then I stand corrected on that point. Thanks for setting me straight.
UiDiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

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#164504
Jul 7, 2013
 
UiDiotRACEMAKEWORLDPEACE wrote:
<quoted text>You not that stupid, like most us Amwricans, JFK is not the head honcho of the establishment and have no power to decidw, as most Presidents are just puppets, behind the Curtian, the US Imperail directive makes decision for country! JFK got assassinated for many reasons, as he irked the US imperial Directive ! Follow the the bloodly money trial. Yea you gonna say it A cONSPIRACY! AS sOME cONSPIRACY ARE NOT theory
ADD That is JFK believe in Peace and withdrawal, not Imperailial directive Manifest Destiny...
UiDiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

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#164506
Jul 7, 2013
 
Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. 1922
"
Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race.

====\\

America Eugenic Program on AMericans according to race at home and around the world. EVIL!

Like Bill MAher corrected assessment as Pronounced most our Americans as bastion of dumb , stupid... BWHHAHAHAAA

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