Bush is a hero

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#160279 Mar 17, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
You have a short memory.
Obama vehemently opposed the enhanced interrogations performed on the courier CAPTURED UNDER BUSH at Gitmo which HE VOWED TO SHUT DOWN which LED TO BIN LADEN. It's all in the house that George built.
Sure, sure, the guy who ran the black-stained EI program says so. What else would he say? In fact,(for the benefit of those who care about such silliness as facts), professionals tell us that EI is THE reason bin Laden lived another ten years. The "informant" you're talking about was Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who lied about bin Laden's courier, saying he was retired, sending the hunt down the wrong paths for near a decade. TV dramatics aside, lies and false information are the primary results of EI, according to the overwhelming consensus of military and law enforcement professionals.

George had one major chance - Tora Bora. In spite of his tough talk about terrorists and the nations who harbor them, he, through Rumsfeld, allowed bin Laden to escape to....where? Pakistan.

And where was he found almost a decade later by the next President? yeah.....ouch.
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>During the first campaign, Obama promised repeatedly he would change the course in Afghanistan and Pakistan and only decided later to abandon those promises and stay on the same track. If troops hadn't been in place in both Afghanistan and Pakistan it never would have happened and there isn't anyone on the planet who could convince me Obama would have had the boots on the ground in either country so we could get to Bin Laden.
Want a comparative of how Obama performs after such events?
Look to Benghazi. He was MIA during the attack, called in once, getting info is like pulling teeth, and we are no where close in capturing anyone responsible. Obama is a military pansy even when he sports the tough guy leather flight jacket he puts on for photo ops.
Ah, yes. Those four tragic deaths were a Godsend to your revisionist history, weren't they? You'll always have that, and you can always re-inject blood after you've squeezed the bodies dry.

Funny, when you talk about somebody sporting "a tough guy leather flight jacket he puts on for photo ops" I couldn't help but think of Codpiece George on an aircraft carrier somewhere. What did that banner over his shoulder say again? And we're still there, right? Not sure, haven't got the latest Faux-conservative talking points flyer for my Faux-conservative binder.
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>He did what he did with reluctance and for political points. He pounded his chest like Tarzan when bin Laden was killed which aggravated the he$$ out of the seals who did the deed.
Reluctance? I'll stipulate that. Hell, they weren't absolutely sure he was there until they laid a laser sight on him. I would hope he made the decision to use American force with deliberation and appropriate reluctance, as opposed to previous recent examples of Presidential hubris and false bravado.

But, like you said, "he did what he did," and the architect of 9/11 and so much other carnage is dead. Thank you, Mr. President.
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>You know who really comes out unscathed in hunt in getting to bin Laden?
Clinton.
Maybe he was too busy wooing Monica and then subsequently consumed with trying to keep his job. Of course if he had gotten the boot or resigned, Gore the goofball would have been the encumbant, Bush would probably not have won that election and bin Laden would still be sitting around in his pajamas watching TV and we wouldn't be talking about this.
Well, I'll agree with that, in part. I've always said that that was the most far-reaching fellatio in history. No BJ, no GWB, no Iraq debacle, no injection of further instability in the ME that we'll be dealing with for years to come. Reading the Plan For A New American Century, one could almost think the BJ was another neocon Godsend. Maybe Monica was neocon mole.......

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#160280 Mar 17, 2013
Henri wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes hi, remind me what bin Laden did again? Was there a trial, in which evidence of criminal wrongdoing was presented? Was there a mention of bin Laden's enduring ties to U.S. intelligence? I'm fuzzy on the justification for and details regarding the bin Laden "liquidation"...
(I have a vague recollection of this silly obsession Americans had at one time regarding "innocence until guilt was proven in a court of law"... Must have been a passing fad rather than the cornerstone of American jurisprudence as it was typically presented)
Fuzzy and vague, you got that right. bin Laden is dead. End and period. If there is a God, this murderer of thousands will be choking on pulled pork sandwiches for eternity.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#160281 Mar 17, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
I know spring is coming soon and all, but it's a little early for a cockroach infestation.

I mean, where did all the truthers come from?
I'm just looking forward to the singing of the next stanza - "Where have all the truthers gone? Long time passing."
Henri

Luxembourg

#160282 Mar 17, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure, sure, the guy who ran the black-stained EI program says so. What else would he say? In fact,(for the benefit of those who care about such silliness as facts), professionals tell us that EI is THE reason bin Laden lived another ten years. The "informant" you're talking about was Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who lied about bin Laden's courier, saying he was retired, sending the hunt down the wrong paths for near a decade. TV dramatics aside, lies and false information are the primary results of EI, according to the overwhelming consensus of military and law enforcement professionals.
George had one major chance - Tora Bora. In spite of his tough talk about terrorists and the nations who harbor them, he, through Rumsfeld, allowed bin Laden to escape to....where? Pakistan.
And where was he found almost a decade later by the next President? yeah.....ouch.
<quoted text>
Ah, yes. Those four tragic deaths were a Godsend to your revisionist history, weren't they? You'll always have that, and you can always re-inject blood after you've squeezed the bodies dry.
Funny, when you talk about somebody sporting "a tough guy leather flight jacket he puts on for photo ops" I couldn't help but think of Codpiece George on an aircraft carrier somewhere. What did that banner over his shoulder say again? And we're still there, right? Not sure, haven't got the latest Faux-conservative talking points flyer for my Faux-conservative binder.
<quoted text>
Reluctance? I'll stipulate that. Hell, they weren't absolutely sure he was there until they laid a laser sight on him. I would hope he made the decision to use American force with deliberation and appropriate reluctance, as opposed to previous recent examples of Presidential hubris and false bravado.
But, like you said, "he did what he did," and the architect of 9/11 and so much other carnage is dead. Thank you, Mr. President.
<quoted text>Well, I'll agree with that, in part. I've always said that that was the most far-reaching fellatio in history. No BJ, no GWB, no Iraq debacle, no injection of further instability in the ME that we'll be dealing with for years to come. Reading the Plan For A New American Century, one could almost think the BJ was another neocon Godsend. Maybe Monica was neocon mole.......
Oh, I see! This is a forum for students of American fiction! Of course!
Henri

Luxembourg

#160283 Mar 17, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I'm just looking forward to the singing of the next stanza - "Where have all the truthers gone? Long time passing."
But you know, the truth is stranger than fiction.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#160284 Mar 17, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
I've always said that that was the most far-reaching fellatio in history. No BJ, no GWB, no Iraq debacle, no injection of further instability in the ME that we'll be dealing with for years to come. Reading the Plan For A New American Century, one could almost think the BJ was another neocon Godsend. Maybe Monica was neocon mole.......
Hey, speaking of sex, did you know I'm pretty much the Topix expert on Pilgrim sexual practices and behavior? I usually give a little speech on it around Thanksgiving.
Given your propensity to go on a sexual offensive when you're annoyed {yes, I've seen you do this before} you might enjoy it.
It might also give you some new material the next time you're trying to off-put a woman not of your team. Yes, it's an old trick occasionally employed by the male gender .... it's right up there with a boy dropping a pollywog on a little girls sandwich so he can watch her squeal.

You have an oddly fascinating way of politically expressing yourself and self promoting your vast knowledge of sexual terms simultaneously.

Maybe it's just another peculiar liberal thing.
Anyway, keep it up. You're very good at it!

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#160285 Mar 17, 2013
For cryin' out loud.

Dozens, possibly hundreds, of nameless government employees are the ones that 'got' bin Laden. They're the kind of people who are not impacted by a Presidential election, unless you count the fact that the more senior of them periodically directly reports to a new political hack that couldn't find the restroom (or his or her ass) without a road map.

They crunched numbers and stared at photos and they tracked trends and followed the money and listened to phone conversations and charted message traffic and chased down who knows how many dead end rabbit holes until they finally found him.

Does Obama deserve some credit? Sure - in the same way any mucky-muck deserves some credit for what the people working for them does.

Did Obama claim more credit for the elimination of bin Laden than he deserved? Of course he did. That's what mucky-mucks do, whether they are in the public or the private sector.

Unless you just crawled out from a box of rocks that's smarter than you are you KNOW that's how the game is played. Unless you are a complete and total idiot, you know damned good and well that the same reflected glory would have been claimed by Bush if he was successful, by McCain if he'd won in '08.

Did Bush inadvertently give Obama the opportunity to claim credit? Of course he did, when he tried to deflect attention away from the fact that we hadn't found him yet by minimizing the importance of the task.

Welcome to politics, American style. It's been around for a while ... it's not like it's new.

Jeez.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#160286 Mar 17, 2013
Henri wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I see! This is a forum for students of American fiction! Of course!
Hey- be NICE, Mr.Luxembourg.

Soooooooo, what's it like being squashed between France, Belgium and Germany?

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#160287 Mar 17, 2013
Henri wrote:
<quoted text>
But you know, the truth is stranger than fiction.
Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction - but sometimes a duck is just a duck.

Truthers, now ... they don't even qualify as strange. They're just, well, fuzzy.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#160288 Mar 17, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
For cryin' out loud.
Dozens, possibly hundreds, of nameless government employees are the ones that 'got' bin Laden. They're the kind of people who are not impacted by a Presidential election, unless you count the fact that the more senior of them periodically directly reports to a new political hack that couldn't find the restroom (or his or her ass) without a road map.
They crunched numbers and stared at photos and they tracked trends and followed the money and listened to phone conversations and charted message traffic and chased down who knows how many dead end rabbit holes until they finally found him.
Does Obama deserve some credit? Sure - in the same way any mucky-muck deserves some credit for what the people working for them does.
Did Obama claim more credit for the elimination of bin Laden than he deserved? Of course he did. That's what mucky-mucks do, whether they are in the public or the private sector.
Unless you just crawled out from a box of rocks that's smarter than you are you KNOW that's how the game is played. Unless you are a complete and total idiot, you know damned good and well that the same reflected glory would have been claimed by Bush if he was successful, by McCain if he'd won in '08.
Did Bush inadvertently give Obama the opportunity to claim credit? Of course he did, when he tried to deflect attention away from the fact that we hadn't found him yet by minimizing the importance of the task.
Welcome to politics, American style. It's been around for a while ... it's not like it's new.
Jeez.
Of course you're right, saying what shouldn't need to be said. The worker-bee does the actual work. Same as it ever was. However, in the "buck stops here" tradition, the President bore the responsibility for the final Go/No-Go, as well as the subsequent result, for better or worse. Thus it is entirely appropriate to say that the "mucky-muck" deserves a considerable portion of credit for his part. In addition, he did in fact re-elevate the priority, and re-assigned resources to the hunt which had been downgraded previously. That's another executive decision for which he certainly deserves credit.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#160289 Mar 17, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, speaking of sex, did you know I'm pretty much the Topix expert on Pilgrim sexual practices and behavior? I usually give a little speech on it around Thanksgiving.
Given your propensity to go on a sexual offensive when you're annoyed {yes, I've seen you do this before} you might enjoy it.
It might also give you some new material the next time you're trying to off-put a woman not of your team. Yes, it's an old trick occasionally employed by the male gender .... it's right up there with a boy dropping a pollywog on a little girls sandwich so he can watch her squeal.
You have an oddly fascinating way of politically expressing yourself and self promoting your vast knowledge of sexual terms simultaneously.
Maybe it's just another peculiar liberal thing.
Anyway, keep it up. You're very good at it!
Nice bob and weave. A two-fer! Misdirection as well as Faux self-absorbed indignation all in one! As for my part in your passion play, I merely elaborated on the topic YOU broached, for your own "political expression". In addition, not one word of it could be in any way construed to be personally directed at, around, toward, in the direction, of, or affiliated with, you, nor is there the remotest inclination to do so.

But any port in a storm,'ey?
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#160290 Mar 17, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Nice bob and weave. A two-fer! Misdirection as well as Faux self-absorbed indignation all in one! As for my part in your passion play, I merely elaborated on the topic YOU broached, for your own "political expression". In addition, not one word of it could be in any way construed to be personally directed at, around, toward, in the direction, of, or affiliated with, you, nor is there the remotest inclination to do so.
But any port in a storm,'ey?
Whatever you say, you little freethinker you!

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#160291 Mar 17, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Of course you're right, saying what shouldn't need to be said. The worker-bee does the actual work. Same as it ever was. However, in the "buck stops here" tradition, the President bore the responsibility for the final Go/No-Go, as well as the subsequent result, for better or worse. Thus it is entirely appropriate to say that the "mucky-muck" deserves a considerable portion of credit for his part. In addition, he did in fact re-elevate the priority, and re-assigned resources to the hunt which had been downgraded previously. That's another executive decision for which he certainly deserves credit.
I think you have to split some hairs to argue that the search for bin Laden was 'downgraded' or that Obama re-prioritized. The search for al Qaeda never ceased, and the two were inseparably linked.

That said - you're right, he deserves some credit for making the decision. There were diplomatic risks involved in the byzantine morass of Pakistani politics regardless of success or failure because of our presence in Afghanistan.

The political risks, if the mission failed, probably shouldn't have to be enumerated, but based on the way this conversation has been framed so far ...

There's a script that the parties pass back and forth between one another for circumstances like that. The Rs used it on Carter over the failed Iranian hostage mission; the Ds tried it on Reagan over Lebanon and Qaddafi; the Rs took it back for Clinton over the attempts to get bin Laden.

If Obama's a quarter of the crafty politician he's credited with he knows that script. That's another risk he took - one that, if you accept the notion that he's a political hack only out for power, was far greater than the benefit to be gained.

The amount of credit I'm willing to give Obama is tempered by the fact that I believe that any responsible American politician serving as President from either party would have made the decision Obama made when he made it.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#160295 Mar 17, 2013
details details wrote:
<quoted text>
Six months after the September 11 attack:
www.youtube.com/watch...
You were saying something about splitting hairs?
I'm aware of the quote.

And?

What part of "terror is bigger than one person" puzzles you, exactly?

Look, I'm no fan of George Bush, and I have references right here in the thread who can verify it - but this is silly. Six months out we had no way of knowing if bin Laden/al Qaeda had other plots in motion like 9/11. It would have been sheer folly to focus exclusively on one individual under those circumstances.

To go further - our understanding of al Qaeda itself was shaky.

Was there a bit of exasperation at the fact that the question of bin Laden kept coming up in that response? Sure, and I'll bet you the only thing Bush regrets more than that one was the 'bring it on' nonsense.

BTW ... the only thing dumber than assuming Bush didn't care about capturing/eliminating bin Laden based on that video is claiming it's proof that 9/11 was a false flag operation, and that 'the truth' of the event is unknown except by a small cadre of enlightened individuals who look down on us sheeple.
Jim

Austin, TX

#160296 Mar 17, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Ron Paul, huh?
I never would have guessed...
Ron Paul and/or Dennis Kucinich and/or Cynthia McKinney. They were all presidential candidates, ignored by the mainstream corporate media, who would have been much "better" than the anointed cyphers.

Is there a reason why you didn't acknowledge my mention of the other two?
Jim

Austin, TX

#160297 Mar 17, 2013
Henri wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes hi, remind me what bin Laden did again? Was there a trial, in which evidence of criminal wrongdoing was presented? Was there a mention of bin Laden's enduring ties to U.S. intelligence? I'm fuzzy on the justification for and details regarding the bin Laden "liquidation"...
(I have a vague recollection of this silly obsession Americans had at one time regarding "innocence until guilt was proven in a court of law"... Must have been a passing fad rather than the cornerstone of American jurisprudence as it was typically presented)
Thanks for demonstrating how a non-mainstream, outsider view is likely to cut right through the bullsh!t. The trouble is, you are questioning foundational beliefs, upon which people have constructed elaborate edi-feces.(It's amazing how attached folks are to their edi-feces).

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#160298 Mar 17, 2013
Jim wrote:
<quoted text>
Ron Paul and/or Dennis Kucinich and/or Cynthia McKinney. They were all presidential candidates, ignored by the mainstream corporate media, who would have been much "better" than the anointed cyphers.
Is there a reason why you didn't acknowledge my mention of the other two?
I'm unaware of Kucinich or McKinney enjoying cult status, that's all.
Jim

Austin, TX

#160299 Mar 17, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
I know spring is coming soon and all, but it's a little early for a cockroach infestation.
I mean, where did all the truthers come from?
"Truther" wielded as an insult? Surely this will be one of the distinguishing characteristics of early 21st century American fiction!

I used to think Orwell's dystopian visions were too unbelievable...
Jim

Austin, TX

#160300 Mar 17, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure, sure, the guy who ran the black-stained EI program says so. What else would he say? In fact,(for the benefit of those who care about such silliness as facts), professionals tell us that EI is THE reason bin Laden lived another ten years. The "informant" you're talking about was Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who lied about bin Laden's courier, saying he was retired, sending the hunt down the wrong paths for near a decade....
Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the man who was reportedly waterboarded 183 times in one month alone? Let's see, that's almost six sessions a day.

He lied?? Goodness, that was unexpected...

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#160301 Mar 17, 2013
Jim wrote:
<quoted text>
"Truther" wielded as an insult? Surely this will be one of the distinguishing characteristics of early 21st century American fiction!
I used to think Orwell's dystopian visions were too unbelievable...
Personally, I find the truther dystopian visions too unbelievable, but I'm not one of the enlightened ones.

So ... assuming for a minute that the official story of 9/11 is false and al Qaeda wasn't behind the attack (if there was an actual attack), who did cause it?

That, btw, is a direct question, and I'd appreciate an equally direct answer absent any attempt to bring me to the proper conclusion.

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