Bush is a hero

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159150 Feb 5, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not sure what came first but tp or the 9-12 project but when many 9-12'ers went to Washington D.C. a few years back I remember the media saying (hoping?) something crazy would happen. It did! Many people that are not professional protestors came from many faiths, some no faith to stand up a few things. I've posted the 9 principles and 12 values a few times here. Whats funny is each time not one person has said they disagreed. But then listen to media and the usual rant about racist bigot blah blah blah when its clear few in the movement hold any such view.
The most glaring problem I see here, Chris, is that it's not 'clear' that few in the Tea Party are racist, when the racist perspective is so well documented in many right-wing publications, and so often offered by politicians on the right.

And yes, there are publications, and politicians, on the left you've called 'racist' as well, about some of whom I share your opinion. But they are either less numerous, or don't get as much television coverage.

Since I don't watch much television, that's pretty moot in my case.

Having said that, it's not necessarily numbers, but emphasis, which seems to make the right stand out more as 'racist'- the left's racism is more subtle, and therefore, perhaps, more insidious.

JMO
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159151 Feb 5, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll just refer you back to LisW's comment on it, I agree with her. I've deleted mine. Palin if any of you can remember is a weak spot with me. I think the liberals true colors really shine through with her treatment. So thats what I'll do is just let the libs speak loud and clear on it, and just let them keep making excuses for their hate..........
And thats the sum of it. My wife's mom had cancer the year we met and can't tell you how thankful we are to still have her today. Both of these woman are stronger than I can say and remind a bit of Palin. Family and most of the values that drive libs crazy. I just see the bashing of Palin as an example of how some of the most hateful on the left view about half this nation. Tolerance? Not a bit.

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159152 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing to do with this particular discussion but it was brought up a while ago so I thought I'd bring it back just to bring closure? Maybe no one cares?
http://www.canoncitydailyrecord.com/ci_225197...
The Catholic Bishops of Colorado have expressed their support of Catholic Health Initiatives after that group acknowledged that it was "morally wrong" for attorneys to argue a fetus is not a human being under Colorado law in defense of a lawsuit involving St. Thomas More Hospital.
Attorneys for the hospital, which is sponsored by CHI, cited the state's Wrongful Death Act in legal proceedings connected to the death of Lori Stodghill and her unborn twins. Stodghill died of a heart attack at St. Thomas More on New Year's Day in 2006; her twins died with her.
Did the Court reverse the judgement?

Sorry, but in my opinion, too little, too late, too 'convenient'.

And something tells me it won't give 'closure' to her family, either. The only thing which will give them 'closure' on this, is time, and a quest for acceptance of her death, untimely or not. That's really REALLY hard to achieve, for some of us.

JMO

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#159153 Feb 5, 2013
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>The most glaring problem I see here, Chris, is that it's not 'clear' that few in the Tea Party are racist, when the racist perspective is so well documented in many right-wing publications, and so often offered by politicians on the right.
And yes, there are publications, and politicians, on the left you've called 'racist' as well, about some of whom I share your opinion. But they are either less numerous, or don't get as much television coverage.
Since I don't watch much television, that's pretty moot in my case.
Having said that, it's not necessarily numbers, but emphasis, which seems to make the right stand out more as 'racist'- the left's racism is more subtle, and therefore, perhaps, more insidious.
JMO
I wonder how much press coverage Romney would have gotten if he said something like, oh lets just say,'They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#159154 Feb 5, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>
And thats the sum of it. My wife's mom had cancer the year we met and can't tell you how thankful we are to still have her today. Both of these woman are stronger than I can say and remind a bit of Palin. Family and most of the values that drive libs crazy. I just see the bashing of Palin as an example of how some of the most hateful on the left view about half this nation. Tolerance? Not a bit.
Good to hear of your MiL's health and in beating the cancer..........

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159155 Feb 5, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
I wonder how much press coverage Romney would have gotten if he said something like, oh lets just say,'They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
Oh, probably as much as Biden did...but frankly there were so many more "gaffes" of this nature from his fellows, and Romney himself, that that one might not even have been noticed.

Got any other examples?

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159156 Feb 5, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>
And thats the sum of it. My wife's mom had cancer the year we met and can't tell you how thankful we are to still have her today. Both of these woman are stronger than I can say and remind a bit of Palin. Family and most of the values that drive libs crazy. I just see the bashing of Palin as an example of how some of the most hateful on the left view about half this nation. Tolerance? Not a bit.
Please Chris - family and values don't 'drive libs crazy'. It's the Right's insistence that the only true 'values' are their values, and that the Right wants to define "family," narrowly, for the rest of us, that makes the rest of us grind our teeth at night.

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159157 Feb 5, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>
Could be becasue they is more to the story. From what I read they didn't just do this they worked and talked to the co. that owns this hospital for quite some time. Also other things that went on unknown to the diocese came to light looking into it. From an Obama approved media source:
Olmsted's announcement came after months of talks between the Diocese, the hospital and the hospital's parent company, Catholic Healthcare West.
"Specifically the fact that he requested we admit the procedure performed was an abortion and that it was a violation of the ethical and religious directives and that we would not perform such a procedure in the future," he said. "We could not agree to that. We acted appropriately."
He said he recently learned that Catholic Healthcare West also is responsible for contraceptive counseling, voluntary sterilization, and other practices he said violate the ethical and religious directives.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/21/ariz...
Rationalize much?

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#159158 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>For anyone interested in the way the Nazis took and exercised power, I'd recommend a three book series (The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, The Third Reich at War) by Richard J. Evans, a British historian.
It gets arcane at times (especially the Third Reich in Power), but the recitation of facts is interspersed with diary entries and other first person accounts of events as they unfolded, from supporters, opponents, and victims of Nazism.
Lyndi was quite right when she said "Fear was only one ingredient in that perfect political storm which permitted Hitler to do what he did. There were boatloads of perfectly aligned contributing factors; the economy, the mood of the nation, the need to find someone to blame etc. all of which led to Hitler's rise to power but none of it could have propelled the carnage without Hitler himself."
The Nazis did use fear as a propaganda tool. One way they did that was by appointing themselves as the arbiters of what was and what was not truly German, and the Germanism they promoted regarded Germany as special, as more important in the world than other nations, in a manner that is easily distinguished from 'ordinary' love of country. They were quite adept at taking a trivial or insignificant event by someone they regarded as not-German and turning it into an affront to the traditions of the Fatherland.
Now, there's nothing uniquely German or Nazi about that. It's just your garden variety propaganda technique, and you don't have to be a Nazi to do something like that. It's a tactic favored by demagogues everywhere.

I wonder if that's the kind of fear Pern is talking about.
Could be. It appeared as written as if his rise to power was due to their fear of speaking out against him. That simple point, I think, is a misunderstanding of a dynamic, often chaotic, situation that evolved over the course of years. Again, thank you for filling out the spaces with light and color, and especially thanks for the book lead(s). Just finishing up a book on the Iraq War, so I'll be casting about for the next read. Arcane is alright, as long as it's well-written. I made it through Shirer's tomes (Nightmare Years, Rise & Fall).

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159159 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Could be. It appeared as written as if his rise to power was due to their fear of speaking out against him. That simple point, I think, is a misunderstanding of a dynamic, often chaotic, situation that evolved over the course of years. Again, thank you for filling out the spaces with light and color, and especially thanks for the book lead(s). Just finishing up a book on the Iraq War, so I'll be casting about for the next read. Arcane is alright, as long as it's well-written. I made it through Shirer's tomes (Nightmare Years, Rise & Fall).
I just picked up Shirer's The Fall of the Third Republic at the library book sale.

That period in French history (and that portion of WWII) has always fascinated me for the way the French right was so fearful of and focused on defeating the French left that they all but ignored Germany while knowing they had German sympathizers and collaborators in their midst.

Evans is dryer than Shirer, and goes into much more detail. He has the benefit of warehouses full of information that wasn't available to Shirer - German documents fully cataloged, British and U.S. documents declassified (and to a much lesser extent French), and even a large number of Soviet documents that were readily available for a decade or so.

Lately I've been on a Civil War kick, mostly how secession came about.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159160 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>What you're asking is why does someone become a martyr, and I don't think there is any one answer for it.
I think he truly believed in the righteousness of his cause. His justification, if not his planning, was well reasoned, and I don't think he just snapped.
Oh, and to prove that the more things change, the more they stay the same - the Democrats blamed the Republicans for Brown.
;-)
The book I'm reading is called The Tribunal, edited by John Stauffer and Zoe Trodd. It starts with selected works by Brown himself, then goes on to cover immediate reaction Norh and South, as well as national and international reaction over the next 50 years. It's all articles and letters, not a summary of the coverage by an author.
It sounds really interesting. I'll have to see if they have it at the library. Thanks for the tip! And yes, that finger pointing has been going on a long time.:)

Willie, can you answer me this? I reread Uncle Tom's Cabin not long ago. I loved the character of Uncle Tom. Why is it a name associated with someone who goes along with "Whitey"?

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159161 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>It's no different than saying that a woman wore a short skirt so she was asking to be raped.
If Palin hadn't been so 'viciously' treated, she wouldn't have had near as much press...and she knew that better than anyone. She gloried in it, Lis, and she did her utmost to keep it in prime time. She wasn't just wearing a short skirt...she was grinding on pervert row, and lap-dancing.

I realize that still doesn't "justify" the depth of anti-Palin frenzy, which gripped many folks during the political campaigns of which she was a part; some of it was pretty awful, especially the stuff about her special needs son, and totally uncalled for.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159162 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>As I said, we see what we expect to see. You've both shown two fine examples. Not finding what you want expressly in the words, you assume a worst case anyway. Pre-loaded indignation will not be denied.
Hmm, how to elaborate further in a field already sown with mines? Probably just bull ahead and damn the torpedoes.
It was political happenstance that Palin got her opportunity to shine on a national stage. Once freed of the campaign, she made the most of her opportunity. She did so with her eyes wide open. She was not content to be just another political animal. She made herself a firebrand, a "rogue" in her own words.
There's something really odd in the shrill characterization of her alleged "treatment" and the spillover to her family. It's unfortunate, and the excesses were at times deplorable, but again, she did so with eyes wide open, and didn't shrink from the fight. She didn't go and fashion herself any kind of moderate either. She went for max light and max heat, and did so with gusto. Did she "suffer" anything that any other candidate potentially endures, or ever has? Hmm, you might want to reference Andy and Rachel Jackson on that score. Chelsea Clinton might have something further to add. Or Kerry. Or McCain. Or.....
Nothing special "happened" with this politician/commentator, at least not out of proportion with the blaze of her own stoked fire. Yet, there is a special kind of vehemence over the "treatment" this one candidate/political firebrand allegedly received. Not to go so far as to say it smacks of a weird reverse chauvinism, but it's odd in any case, that's for sure. If ya can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Palin became a Master Chef.
Did she profit from the hullabaloo? Damn skippy. Did she work the vitriol that came her way? Like a Gibson Les Paul. She made darn sure that every perceived slam and slur was repeated for maximum exposure. Book and ticket sales spiked accordingly. She toyed with people's expectations right up to the primaries, when any fool could see she had no intention of anything more than keeping her hand in as a player, and squeeze that udder just a leetle more while we're at it.
It's funny yaknow. If she's called stupid, her fans are upset. If one says she played her hand shrewdly and calculatingly brilliant, and provided damn well for her family in the bargain, one is suspected of unspoken guile. So it goes with fan clubs.
I mean, you never got any of my money but still, good for you, Sarah. It was fun while it lasted.
Many of the things happened before she and McCain lost the election. I am not talking so much about after but the immediate reaction to her and during the election cycle. Well, it's over now but it is one of those moments in history where the sharks came out to feed and they didn't try to hide their blood lust.

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159163 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Many of the things happened before she and McCain lost the election. I am not talking so much about after but the immediate reaction to her and during the election cycle. Well, it's over now but it is one of those moments in history where the sharks came out to feed and they didn't try to hide their blood lust.
I would be more inclined to cut Palin a break, if she hadn't brought her family into the limelight so very deliberately. I'm reminded of Liberace's famous words: "They laughed at me, and called me names....I cried all the way to the bank."

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#159164 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
In part this is what I am talking about. Usually when a woman, especially an attractive woman and mother, is attacked it brings out a man's chivalrous nature. The things that were said about her, the sexual threats, the name calling, the sly attacks on her daughters would illicit something protective in a man. But, in this case, the pack overrides the chivalry and decency and even nice men become part of the gang and then it is justified with some jab that she'll be recompensed for it so it's all okay.
And this is what I'm talking about. Palin and her supporters made tall hay out of the alleged "attacks", many of which came from obscure and inconsequential sources that wouldn't have made it to the news cycle had Palin not repeated them for effect, ad infinitum. This quickly revealed as a central pillar of their campaign strategy, and was an extremely effective recruiting and fund generation tool.

Romney, on the other hand, sized up a political campaign quite succinctly. Asked about a particularly scurrilous negative ad (from the Gingrich camp), he dismissed the question, saying,”This is, after all, politics. There's no whining in politics." What do Palin fans not get about that?

This is also what I'm talking about. The modern world is a minefield for a male in the Women In The Workplace Era. If you treat them with old-school deference, you >will< be castigated by half the distaff for treating them as weaker members. If you ignore their gender and treat them as you would a man, the other half >will< decry the demise of chivalry. Damned if ya does, danged if ya dasn't.

And this is finally what I'm talking about. Palin enjoyed widespread popularity and success, and enjoyed it long past the typical expiration date of any similar figure. But if 1000 people showed up at a rally, 999 of them could be wildly enthusiastic, but all we'll hear about is the one with an "attack" sign. I get it, it sells tickets. I'm surprised somebody didn't think to co-opt "The Ballad Of John And Yoko" as "The Ballad Of Todd and Sarah."

"Christ ya know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be.
The way things are goin'
they're gonna crucify me."

>cue Sarah's flute solo<
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>No, I am not avoiding the question of the inherent evil of mankind. It is in all of us but hopefully not all of us will give into it. It will not always make an appearance because it takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out. I think the attacks on Sarah Palin by the majority of media outlets caused a fury of like behavior in the general society and then an otherwise decent man like yourself was able to justify what was done to her.

I am not saying that her policies cannot be questioned, her political career, her funny way of talking or any number of things she does that are odd to you but when it comes to the gross things that were leveled at her and her family even I was surprised that even the women leaders of the Left kept silent and I don't expect much from them.
Whoa. Back up, Nelly. Questioning her career and policy statements was >exactly< what I was doing at one point, which still sits there in our back pages, and my comments and questions were summarily ignored, and instead a flurry of gossipy exchanges appeared between fans, which could be summed up as "Oh, some men are just threatened by a strong woman." I'm not sure, but I do believe you were among that choir.

There was, and still is, a lot of that sort of Alaskan Sidestep going on in any attempts to discuss Palin on-point. I suspect there's an unconscious reason why many would rather hyper-focus on alleged "gross things".

You guys got that Palin Defense Package sewn up real nice and tight.

Since: Sep 10

Hermosa Beach, CA

#159165 Feb 5, 2013
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>I would be more inclined to cut Palin a break, if she hadn't brought her family into the limelight so very deliberately. I'm reminded of Liberace's famous words: "They laughed at me, and called me names....I cried all the way to the bank."
We better move on from a Palin discussion.

The risk is that Lyndi will see it, and we'll be in for a real rant.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159166 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
It sounds really interesting. I'll have to see if they have it at the library. Thanks for the tip! And yes, that finger pointing has been going on a long time.:)
Willie, can you answer me this? I reread Uncle Tom's Cabin not long ago. I loved the character of Uncle Tom. Why is it a name associated with someone who goes along with "Whitey"?
I did not know the answer to that off the top of my head, so I Googled it. This is from Wikipedia, but what it says is consistent with information I've read about the impact of the book.

"American copyright law before 1856 did not give novel authors any control over derivative stage adaptations, so Stowe neither approved the adaptations nor profited from them. Minstrel show retellings in particular, usually performed by white men in blackface, tended to be derisive and pro-slavery, transforming Uncle Tom from Christian martyr to a fool or an apologist for slavery.

"Adapted theatrical performances of the novel remained in continual production in the United States for at least 80 years. These representations had a lasting cultural impact and influenced the pejorative nature of the term Uncle Tom in later popular use."

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#159167 Feb 5, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
We better move on from a Palin discussion.
The risk is that Lyndi will see it, and we'll be in for a real rant.
Whatchoo mean 'we'........?

(snicker)

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159168 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Whoa. Back up, Nelly. Questioning her career and policy statements was >exactly< what I was doing at one point, which still sits there in our back pages, and my comments and questions were summarily ignored, and instead a flurry of gossipy exchanges appeared between fans, which could be summed up as "Oh, some men are just threatened by a strong woman." I'm not sure, but I do believe you were among that choir.
There was, and still is, a lot of that sort of Alaskan Sidestep going on in any attempts to discuss Palin on-point. I suspect there's an unconscious reason why many would rather hyper-focus on alleged "gross things".
You guys got that Palin Defense Package sewn up real nice and tight.
I got a chuckle out of that 'it's fair to talk about her career and policy statements' too.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#159169 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Many of the things happened before she and McCain lost the election. I am not talking so much about after but the immediate reaction to her and during the election cycle. Well, it's over now but it is one of those moments in history where the sharks came out to feed and they didn't try to hide their blood lust.
Please excuse my presumption, but I feel like it's a case where many are emotionally invested in a person, and naturally tend to gloss over any wrinkles, and just as naturally resent those who point them out. You surely have to admit at least that there's something more than Sarah-bashing going on when so many from that campaign, and on back to Alaska, who were in her camp at one time, ended up not being fans. One or two disgruntled workers? We could dismiss that. But we're talking about numbers here.

I'm sorry, I still can't see that Ms. Palin underwent anything that all candidates don't endure. She really wasn't ready for that slot, and it showed. She may have been in the future, but not in 2008. But she ended up making lemonade out of a lemon. There's no revenge like success.

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