Bush is a hero

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#159096 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Perception. We see what we need to see. You see a poor persecuted soccer mom. I see a gal who, if she's prudent, will never have to work another day in her life if she chooses, nor will her immediate family. Tooling around the nation in designer buses ain't cheap. Looks to me like she did quite well, working all sides of the "group" with brilliant results. A true American success story.
rk
Hopefully I'm wrong. It almost seems like your justifying the cruelty because she made money off it. That makes it alright.

I'm sure the Palins thought it was a hoot when their 20 y/o daughter recieved death threats for going on DWTS.

I see Palin as someone who was asked to run on the VP ticket and accepted. Its sad to think that, that now can be seen as a bad thing and something not only the candidate should be mocked and ridiculed for years for, but her family also.
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159097 Feb 5, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Hopefully I'm wrong. It almost seems like your justifying the cruelty because she made money off it. That makes it alright.
I'm sure the Palins thought it was a hoot when their 20 y/o daughter recieved death threats for going on DWTS.
I see Palin as someone who was asked to run on the VP ticket and accepted. Its sad to think that, that now can be seen as a bad thing and something not only the candidate should be mocked and ridiculed for years for, but her family also.
You bet. Its also why I think we will fewer and fewer people of honor bother to run. Why would they? But whats funny and quite sad is that people moan about smears all the while spending time energy and doing just what they claim to oppose.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159098 Feb 5, 2013
The Catholic Centre Party wasn't extremist, although like other political parties they had drifted right to compete with the Nazis and in fear of the Communists.

The Catholic Centre Party couldn't have stopped Hitler from taking absolute control even if they'd committed immediate suicide and voted against the Enabling Act.

The Centre Party and the Catholic Church itself joins the German military, German industrialists, German Lutheran Church, German monarchists, and the delusional Nazis who took the Socialist part of Nazism seriously - all of them elements who made the (literally) fatal mistake that you could take Hitler's word and felt they could still control Hitler.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159100 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I appreciate that further information. Pern's assertion is simply that Hitler rose to power due to the people being afraid to speak out against him or his party. This was not the case in 1932. Fear was a factor, but as I said, for the average Kraut through the 20's and early 30's (paralleling the rise of Nazism), it was not so much fear of Hitler or the Nazi Party, but fears which included the turmoils of a combative and chaotic democratic system with annual elections, fear of further economic turmoil arising from the austerity measures of Hitler's predecessors, and fear of continued national disgrace arising from the humiliations imposed by Versailles. The popular vote for the Nazi Party rose steadily throughout the 20's and early 30's, placing doubt to claims of a fear to speak out against them.
As for the demonization of ethnic and ideological groups, Shirer points out that there was a nascent nationalistic string running through the German psyche only awaiting the right person to pluck out the chord. Hitler did so with virtuosity, elevating nationalist emotion to a xenophobia.
True enough, without fear, Hitler could not have come into power. But it wasn't fear of speaking out against him.
For anyone interested in the way the Nazis took and exercised power, I'd recommend a three book series (The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, The Third Reich at War) by Richard J. Evans, a British historian.

It gets arcane at times (especially the Third Reich in Power), but the recitation of facts is interspersed with diary entries and other first person accounts of events as they unfolded, from supporters, opponents, and victims of Nazism.

Lyndi was quite right when she said "Fear was only one ingredient in that perfect political storm which permitted Hitler to do what he did. There were boatloads of perfectly aligned contributing factors; the economy, the mood of the nation, the need to find someone to blame etc. all of which led to Hitler's rise to power but none of it could have propelled the carnage without Hitler himself."

The Nazis did use fear as a propaganda tool. One way they did that was by appointing themselves as the arbiters of what was and what was not truly German, and the Germanism they promoted regarded Germany as special, as more important in the world than other nations, in a manner that is easily distinguished from 'ordinary' love of country. They were quite adept at taking a trivial or insignificant event by someone they regarded as not-German and turning it into an affront to the traditions of the Fatherland.

Now, there's nothing uniquely German or Nazi about that. It's just your garden variety propaganda technique, and you don't have to be a Nazi to do something like that. It's a tactic favored by demagogues everywhere.

I wonder if that's the kind of fear Pern is talking about.
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159101 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>For anyone interested in the way the Nazis took and exercised power, I'd recommend a three book series (The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, The Third Reich at War) by Richard J. Evans, a British historian.
It gets arcane at times (especially the Third Reich in Power), but the recitation of facts is interspersed with diary entries and other first person accounts of events as they unfolded, from supporters, opponents, and victims of Nazism.
Lyndi was quite right when she said "Fear was only one ingredient in that perfect political storm which permitted Hitler to do what he did. There were boatloads of perfectly aligned contributing factors; the economy, the mood of the nation, the need to find someone to blame etc. all of which led to Hitler's rise to power but none of it could have propelled the carnage without Hitler himself."
The Nazis did use fear as a propaganda tool. One way they did that was by appointing themselves as the arbiters of what was and what was not truly German, and the Germanism they promoted regarded Germany as special, as more important in the world than other nations, in a manner that is easily distinguished from 'ordinary' love of country. They were quite adept at taking a trivial or insignificant event by someone they regarded as not-German and turning it into an affront to the traditions of the Fatherland.
Now, there's nothing uniquely German or Nazi about that. It's just your garden variety propaganda technique, and you don't have to be a Nazi to do something like that. It's a tactic favored by demagogues everywhere.
I wonder if that's the kind of fear Pern is talking about.
You mean something trivial like saying "those tea party folks are a danger" "We need to watch the 9-12ers" Something trivial like that? Or perhaps it would be something like say, or the d.h.s. saying some groups need to be watched more closely. Nothing like that right?

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159102 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Your friends made the wrong decision for THEMSELVES or perhaps their guilt is being perpetuated by outside influences but I promise you, they are in a minority.
My friends are truly a minority of awesome strong women. That is why they are my friends.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159103 Feb 5, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Hopefully I'm wrong. It almost seems like your justifying the cruelty because she made money off it. That makes it alright.
I'm sure the Palins thought it was a hoot when their 20 y/o daughter recieved death threats for going on DWTS.
I see Palin as someone who was asked to run on the VP ticket and accepted. Its sad to think that, that now can be seen as a bad thing and something not only the candidate should be mocked and ridiculed for years for, but her family also.
That is how it sounded to me too. He did not really justify the attacks on her with excuse that she was compensated, did he?
I too see Palin as having been attacked simply because the opposition had the audacity to ask her to be on the ticket. Then one of the most vicious attacks I can remember in my lifetime began.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159104 Feb 5, 2013
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>I don't doubt that some women regret their abortions, perhaps bitterly. But I could tell you just as many stories about those who don't regret them, and in fact were relieved....not depressed. I happen to be one of them. While I mourn the loss of those pregnancies I lost through miscarriage, the one I had terminated was mis-located, and would have been the end of me. Ectopic pregnancies kill. Mind you, the OB gave me very strong advice, but I ALWAYS had the choice of whether to abort, or take that chance. I was never told I HAD to terminate the pregnancy, even though the doc told me my chances for survival were very small - but that it was completely my decision. That decision left me alive to bear two sons, and that, my friend, I don't regret for a New York minute.
Yes, my situation was extreme, and so many here doubt that doctors would ever be prohibited from saving a woman's life from an ectopic pregnancy, but it happens already in many countries where abortion is completely illegal. And the laws being proposed here, which concern personhood, and 'destruction of evidence' DO NOT MENTION an exception for saving a woman's life.
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/01/25/new-mexi...
We can complacently say that such bills don't often become law, but the fact that laws such as this even make it to the Floor of the House, bodes ill for women's lives, and frankly, makes me livid.
SisterKL, you had no choice but to make the decision that you made. You didn't choose to terminate life, that life was unsustainable by the nature of the placement the baby never stood a chance. Your own life was at risk. I am not Catholic, I don't know what the viewpoint of the Church is regarding those instances but doing anything different than what you did would not be my advice.
The House and Senate debate all kinds of stupid things. It is the nature of the entity. Even if something is passed that seems rather sketchy there are courts that rush to stop its implementation.
I lost a child to miscarriage too. I sympathize with your losses. Every so often I think about how old that child would be that I lost. I wonder who the person is that is missing from our family.
Abortions due to rape and ectopic pregnancy are pretty rare. I am sad that so many women just see abortion as a big magic eraser that they can use to eliminate a bad decision.
I believe that abortion will always be legal in this country. I think the majority of people want it that way. My problem is with the need to use the taxpayer to fund it. There are people who will contribute to it the same way cancer research is contributed to. The government should not be in the business of eliminating it's citizens.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159105 Feb 5, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean something trivial like saying "those tea party folks are a danger" "We need to watch the 9-12ers" Something trivial like that? Or perhaps it would be something like say, or the d.h.s. saying some groups need to be watched more closely. Nothing like that right?
Short answer - the people who make sweeping, broad brush assertions about the Tea Party are doing the same thing.

That said, the Tea Party is a mass movement. It has no platform, only vague principals. Mass movements are made up of a wide range of people holding all sorts of opinions, sometimes seemingly contradictory opinions.

Mass movements throughout history have been a vehicle by which extremists recruit and make their agendas acceptable to greater numbers of people. It doesn't matter if the mass movements or the extremists are left or right.

To use examples on the left, communists attempted to subvert the Civil Rights movement to their purposes. Communists and anarchists and wingnuts of all stripes tried to subvert the anti Vietnam war movement in the 60s.

In the 30s/early 40s, both left and right wing fanatics used the America First/isolationist movement for those purposes.

That's been my only concern about the Tea Party - that fanatics and extremists will use the anger and passion of its participants to recruit/inspire the next lone wolf warrior for the 'true America' McVeigh. I have the same concern about the imitation hippie space cadets of Occupy - that the next generation of left wing rebels without a clue SDS/Weather Underground bombers will spring forth from it.

There are mean, nasty, evil things that go bump in the night on the left and the right, Chris - and yes, they bear watching.

I haven't said anything more here than I've said before. I can't help or control what people chose to hear.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159106 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Perception. We see what we need to see. You see a poor persecuted soccer mom. I see a gal who, if she's prudent, will never have to work another day in her life if she chooses, nor will her immediate family. Tooling around the nation in designer buses ain't cheap. Looks to me like she did quite well, working all sides of the "group" with brilliant results. A true American success story.
In part this is what I am talking about. Usually when a woman, especially an attractive woman and mother, is attacked it brings out a man's chivalrous nature. The things that were said about her, the sexual threats, the name calling, the sly attacks on her daughters would illicit something protective in a man. But, in this case, the pack overrides the chivalry and decency and even nice men become part of the gang and then it is justified with some jab that she'll be recompensed for it so it's all okay.

No, I am not avoiding the question of the inherent evil of mankind. It is in all of us but hopefully not all of us will give into it. It will not always make an appearance because it takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out. I think the attacks on Sarah Palin by the majority of media outlets caused a fury of like behavior in the general society and then an otherwise decent man like yourself was able to justify what was done to her.
I am not saying that her policies cannot be questioned, her political career, her funny way of talking or any number of things she does that are odd to you but when it comes to the gross things that were leveled at her and her family even I was surprised that even the women leaders of the Left kept silent and I don't expect much from them.

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#159107 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
That is how it sounded to me too. He did not really justify the attacks on her with excuse that she was compensated, did he?
I too see Palin as having been attacked simply because the opposition had the audacity to ask her to be on the ticket. Then one of the most vicious attacks I can remember in my lifetime began.
One of the things I hear all the time about Palin is that she puts herself and her family out there. Therefore they deserve what they get an she's asking for it and exposing herself to it.

Then the next thing the seeming jealousy of the fact that she makes money off her appearances.

I dont want to put words in Hips mouth and i apologize if I'm wrong but Im fairly certain he has taken that stance before.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159108 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
My friends are truly a minority of awesome strong women. That is why they are my friends.
And that's very nice but experts agree they aren't representative of how the majority of women feel post abortion and I just wanted to make that clear for anyone who happens to be reading along.

Your particular scenario was curious to me on two levels. 1) That so "many" of your close friends had an abortion and 2) they are all experiencing an identical month long guilt reaction years after the fact. Generally there is a common denominator to such a phenomenon such as a religious component being involved or perhaps underlying issues.....
But whatever the reason, their reaction isn't the norm. I do hope their difficulties subside and vanish altogether.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159109 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Short answer - the people who make sweeping, broad brush assertions about the Tea Party are doing the same thing.
That said, the Tea Party is a mass movement. It has no platform, only vague principals. Mass movements are made up of a wide range of people holding all sorts of opinions, sometimes seemingly contradictory opinions.
Mass movements throughout history have been a vehicle by which extremists recruit and make their agendas acceptable to greater numbers of people. It doesn't matter if the mass movements or the extremists are left or right.
To use examples on the left, communists attempted to subvert the Civil Rights movement to their purposes. Communists and anarchists and wingnuts of all stripes tried to subvert the anti Vietnam war movement in the 60s.
In the 30s/early 40s, both left and right wing fanatics used the America First/isolationist movement for those purposes.
That's been my only concern about the Tea Party - that fanatics and extremists will use the anger and passion of its participants to recruit/inspire the next lone wolf warrior for the 'true America' McVeigh. I have the same concern about the imitation hippie space cadets of Occupy - that the next generation of left wing rebels without a clue SDS/Weather Underground bombers will spring forth from it.
There are mean, nasty, evil things that go bump in the night on the left and the right, Chris - and yes, they bear watching.
I haven't said anything more here than I've said before. I can't help or control what people chose to hear.
The big difference between the Tea Party movement and the others you've included would be the overall age of the group. The older folks of the Tea Party (over 40 crowd) verses those other groups made up of a lot of college kids who are easily manipulated. The Tea Party picks up their own trash. The kids, not so much. Kids smash windows and over turn cars, defecate in parks and sidewalks, and in general get carried away with themselves.
I agree that we should always be on guard against subversive movements even within what we consider a good cause. Ever Vigilant.
Disney

United States

#159110 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Short answer - the people who make sweeping, broad brush assertions about the Tea Party are doing the same thing.
That said, the Tea Party is a mass movement. It has no platform, only vague principals. Mass movements are made up of a wide range of people holding all sorts of opinions, sometimes seemingly contradictory opinions.
Mass movements throughout history have been a vehicle by which extremists recruit and make their agendas acceptable to greater numbers of people. It doesn't matter if the mass movements or the extremists are left or right.
To use examples on the left, communists attempted to subvert the Civil Rights movement to their purposes. Communists and anarchists and wingnuts of all stripes tried to subvert the anti Vietnam war movement in the 60s.
In the 30s/early 40s, both left and right wing fanatics used the America First/isolationist movement for those purposes.
That's been my only concern about the Tea Party - that fanatics and extremists will use the anger and passion of its participants to recruit/inspire the next lone wolf warrior for the 'true America' McVeigh. I have the same concern about the imitation hippie space cadets of Occupy - that the next generation of left wing rebels without a clue SDS/Weather Underground bombers will spring forth from it.
There are mean, nasty, evil things that go bump in the night on the left and the right, Chris - and yes, they bear watching.
I haven't said anything more here than I've said before. I can't help or control what people chose to hear.
Ok, this is reasonable.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159111 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
And that's very nice but experts agree they aren't representative of how the majority of women feel post abortion and I just wanted to make that clear for anyone who happens to be reading along.
Your particular scenario was curious to me on two levels. 1) That so "many" of your close friends had an abortion and 2) they are all experiencing an identical month long guilt reaction years after the fact. Generally there is a common denominator to such a phenomenon such as a religious component being involved or perhaps underlying issues.....
But whatever the reason, their reaction isn't the norm. I do hope their difficulties subside and vanish altogether.
I have no idea why you felt you had to get back to this, why you felt the need to repeat yourself. Get on and take your sympathies elsewhere.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159112 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>For anyone interested in the way the Nazis took and exercised power, I'd recommend a three book series (The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, The Third Reich at War) by Richard J. Evans, a British historian.
It gets arcane at times (especially the Third Reich in Power), but the recitation of facts is interspersed with diary entries and other first person accounts of events as they unfolded, from supporters, opponents, and victims of Nazism.
Lyndi was quite right when she said "Fear was only one ingredient in that perfect political storm which permitted Hitler to do what he did. There were boatloads of perfectly aligned contributing factors; the economy, the mood of the nation, the need to find someone to blame etc. all of which led to Hitler's rise to power but none of it could have propelled the carnage without Hitler himself."
The Nazis did use fear as a propaganda tool. One way they did that was by appointing themselves as the arbiters of what was and what was not truly German, and the Germanism they promoted regarded Germany as special, as more important in the world than other nations, in a manner that is easily distinguished from 'ordinary' love of country. They were quite adept at taking a trivial or insignificant event by someone they regarded as not-German and turning it into an affront to the traditions of the Fatherland.
Now, there's nothing uniquely German or Nazi about that. It's just your garden variety propaganda technique, and you don't have to be a Nazi to do something like that. It's a tactic favored by demagogues everywhere.
I wonder if that's the kind of fear Pern is talking about.
Brilliantly said Willie and I thank you for adding more to this discussion than my measly abilities ever could.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159113 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not saying that her policies cannot be questioned, her political career, her funny way of talking or any number of things she does that are odd to you but when it comes to the gross things that were leveled at her and her family even I was surprised that even the women leaders of the Left kept silent and I don't expect much from them.
Women "from the left" can be very particular which women they will go to bat for and which ones they'll sit back and watch get batted around.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159114 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
But whatever the reason, their reaction isn't the norm. I do hope their difficulties subside and vanish altogether.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/interactive/discus...

Reading these women I don't get the impression they are religious, just hurting.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159115 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no idea why you felt you had to get back to this, why you felt the need to repeat yourself. Get on and take your sympathies elsewhere.
I repeated myself because you skipped over the information I provided and made an irrelevant comment about your friendships. I believe passing out false information is always a bad idea and I'm sometimes compelled to get out the right information even if some may find it displeasing.
You're entitled to do anything you want with your opinions when they're flying around in your head but once they're out of your mouth they are mine to comment on.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159116 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
The big difference between the Tea Party movement and the others you've included would be the overall age of the group. The older folks of the Tea Party (over 40 crowd) verses those other groups made up of a lot of college kids who are easily manipulated. The Tea Party picks up their own trash. The kids, not so much. Kids smash windows and over turn cars, defecate in parks and sidewalks, and in general get carried away with themselves.
I agree that we should always be on guard against subversive movements even within what we consider a good cause. Ever Vigilant.
I know you can't characterize America First as a youth movement, and I question that with the civil rights movement although they did much of the grunt work.

Oh, and let's face it - the overwhelming majority of those who make up Occupy are eventually going to go get a bath, haircut and a real job and grow up to be the next Tea Party in a generation or two.

Since we're talking about a relatively small pool of people who might fall under the sway of extremists (again, regardless of the orientation of the movement or the extremists), I don't think the difference in age, manners, and grooming makes much difference. A vulnerable young person showing up at a TP rally may feel the 'old folks' aren't really doing enough to foster the 'new American Revolution', and look for someone promising more direct action.

I can't emphasize enough that we're talking about a relatively small pool of people who might fall under the sway of extremists - but it doesn't take many. Far right militias/white supremacists committed murders (financed by robberies) all over the Northwest, Colorado and the Midwest in the 80s. Far left bombers operated all over the country from the 60s through the 70s.

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