Bush is a hero
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159127 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
The big difference between the Tea Party movement and the others you've included would be the overall age of the group. The older folks of the Tea Party (over 40 crowd) verses those other groups made up of a lot of college kids who are easily manipulated. The Tea Party picks up their own trash. The kids, not so much. Kids smash windows and over turn cars, defecate in parks and sidewalks, and in general get carried away with themselves.
I agree that we should always be on guard against subversive movements even within what we consider a good cause. Ever Vigilant.
I'm not sure what came first but tp or the 9-12 project but when many 9-12'ers went to Washington D.C. a few years back I remember the media saying (hoping?) something crazy would happen. It did! Many people that are not professional protestors came from many faiths, some no faith to stand up a few things. I've posted the 9 principles and 12 values a few times here. Whats funny is each time not one person has said they disagreed. But then listen to media and the usual rant about racist bigot blah blah blah when its clear few in the movement hold any such view.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159128 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
SisterKL, you had no choice but to make the decision that you made. You didn't choose to terminate life, that life was unsustainable by the nature of the placement the baby never stood a chance. Your own life was at risk. I am not Catholic, I don't know what the viewpoint of the Church is regarding those instances but doing anything different than what you did would not be my advice.
The House and Senate debate all kinds of stupid things. It is the nature of the entity. Even if something is passed that seems rather sketchy there are courts that rush to stop its implementation.
I lost a child to miscarriage too. I sympathize with your losses. Every so often I think about how old that child would be that I lost. I wonder who the person is that is missing from our family.
Abortions due to rape and ectopic pregnancy are pretty rare. I am sad that so many women just see abortion as a big magic eraser that they can use to eliminate a bad decision.
I believe that abortion will always be legal in this country. I think the majority of people want it that way. My problem is with the need to use the taxpayer to fund it. There are people who will contribute to it the same way cancer research is contributed to. The government should not be in the business of eliminating it's citizens.
I can assure you that if both child and mother will die, the Catholic church supports the mother's right to live.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159129 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
In part this is what I am talking about. Usually when a woman, especially an attractive woman and mother, is attacked it brings out a man's chivalrous nature. The things that were said about her, the sexual threats, the name calling, the sly attacks on her daughters would illicit something protective in a man. But, in this case, the pack overrides the chivalry and decency and even nice men become part of the gang and then it is justified with some jab that she'll be recompensed for it so it's all okay.
No, I am not avoiding the question of the inherent evil of mankind. It is in all of us but hopefully not all of us will give into it. It will not always make an appearance because it takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out. I think the attacks on Sarah Palin by the majority of media outlets caused a fury of like behavior in the general society and then an otherwise decent man like yourself was able to justify what was done to her.
I am not saying that her policies cannot be questioned, her political career, her funny way of talking or any number of things she does that are odd to you but when it comes to the gross things that were leveled at her and her family even I was surprised that even the women leaders of the Left kept silent and I don't expect much from them.
To me the "gal" is very telling, in and of itself. Add the rest and you've got a member of the pack.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159130 Feb 5, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
One of the things I hear all the time about Palin is that she puts herself and her family out there. Therefore they deserve what they get an she's asking for it and exposing herself to it.
Then the next thing the seeming jealousy of the fact that she makes money off her appearances.
I dont want to put words in Hips mouth and i apologize if I'm wrong but Im fairly certain he has taken that stance before.
It's no different than saying that a woman wore a short skirt so she was asking to be raped.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159131 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>You may be correct in the majority but to eliminate the possibility of post-regret is irresponsible. As a clinician treating for severe depression I was surprised how often it turned out that a prior abortion contributed to this. It was usually the last thing uncovered, meaning it wasn't even being looked for. So a syndrome for the DSM, no, but it does exist.
It does exist but I don't want people to come away from these discussions thinking it's common. It is not common and quite often any serious problems which crop up post abortion for girls/women existed and went undetected before the abortion. As with the recent gun violence episodes....the psychological problems existed long before the gunman walked into a building and mowed down innocent people before he committed suicide.

Well adjusted girls/women who have good coping skills do not generally suffer years after an abortion. It's rare.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159132 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I can assure you that if both child and mother will die, the Catholic church supports the mother's right to live.
If that is so, why was a hospital in Arizona stripped of its Catholic status for performing an abortion to save the mother's life?
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159133 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>If that is so, why was a hospital in Arizona stripped of its Catholic status for performing an abortion to save the mother's life?
I don't know send me the article. Note I said when it is both that are going to die the church would not expect the woman to die. In an ectopic pregnancy there is no hope that the baby will live and it will kill the mother if not removed. The church isn't stupid. That's not the same as a threat, it is a certainty.(note: I have often said I don't buy what the catholic church says lock, stock and barrel.)
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159134 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>If that is so, why was a hospital in Arizona stripped of its Catholic status for performing an abortion to save the mother's life?
Could be becasue they is more to the story. From what I read they didn't just do this they worked and talked to the co. that owns this hospital for quite some time. Also other things that went on unknown to the diocese came to light looking into it. From an Obama approved media source:

Olmsted's announcement came after months of talks between the Diocese, the hospital and the hospital's parent company, Catholic Healthcare West.

"Specifically the fact that he requested we admit the procedure performed was an abortion and that it was a violation of the ethical and religious directives and that we would not perform such a procedure in the future," he said. "We could not agree to that. We acted appropriately."

He said he recently learned that Catholic Healthcare West also is responsible for contraceptive counseling, voluntary sterilization, and other practices he said violate the ethical and religious directives.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/21/ariz...

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159135 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>If that is so, why was a hospital in Arizona stripped of its Catholic status for performing an abortion to save the mother's life?
Nothing to do with this particular discussion but it was brought up a while ago so I thought I'd bring it back just to bring closure? Maybe no one cares?

http://www.canoncitydailyrecord.com/ci_225197...

The Catholic Bishops of Colorado have expressed their support of Catholic Health Initiatives after that group acknowledged that it was "morally wrong" for attorneys to argue a fetus is not a human being under Colorado law in defense of a lawsuit involving St. Thomas More Hospital.
Attorneys for the hospital, which is sponsored by CHI, cited the state's Wrongful Death Act in legal proceedings connected to the death of Lori Stodghill and her unborn twins. Stodghill died of a heart attack at St. Thomas More on New Year's Day in 2006; her twins died with her.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159136 Feb 5, 2013
Chris Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sorry to say that I wasn't shocked. Before wife and I were even married we started doing things together in missions. One of the first was work with a pregnancy here in town. I've been witness to pure hate by people that do all they can to stop it. Since I know Palin is also quite active in this area some on the far left will stop at nothing to that end. Its one of the reasons I quit posting in any abortion forum. I long ago found better use for my time and some of what I read made me weep.
Chris, I feel your pain here. Better to do what we can when we can and where we can than stir up a bee hive without the help of a beekeeper. This issue will be around as long as mankind/womankind exists on this earth.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159137 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I can assure you that if both child and mother will die, the Catholic church supports the mother's right to live.
This story has caused stir....... You may already have heard of it.

Catholic Ireland: Woman dies after abortion request refused
November 14, 2012
By: Michael StoneSubscribe

Savita Halappanavar was told she could not have a life saving abortion because Ireland was "a Catholic country." After being denied a life saving abortion at Galway University Hospital in Ireland, Savita Halappanavar died.

On Wednesday, November 13, about 2000 demonstrators gathered outside the Irish parliament In Ireland to protest the antiquated, and some say draconian, laws that lead to the needless death of Savita Halappanavar.

Halappanavar, a 31-year-old dentist, was 17 weeks pregnant when she died on October 28 after suffering a miscarriage and septicaemia.

Knowing that the fetus she carried was dying and would not survive, Halappanavar, suffering and in pain, asked repeatedly over a three-day period that her pregnancy be terminated. Yet despite the fact that the fetus was dying, the hospital denied her the right to abort an unviable fetus during a miscarriage. Many believe Halappanavar’s repeated requests for termination were denied because of the country’s anti-abortion Catholic beliefs.
===
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159138 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I don't know send me the article. Note I said when it is both that are going to die the church would not expect the woman to die. In an ectopic pregnancy there is no hope that the baby will live and it will kill the mother if not removed. The church isn't stupid. That's not the same as a threat, it is a certainty.(note: I have often said I don't buy what the catholic church says lock, stock and barrel.)
I will be in the hospital bright and early Monday at 6:00a.m. I would have no problem if the rcc ran it. They don't but I fear the gov having more of a say so in heath care.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159139 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I've been thinking about American terrorists lately, since I'm reading a book abou national and international reaction to one of America's first (terrorist/freedom fighter), John Brown.
On this side of history it is easy to say I agree with John Brown and what he did because we all agree slavery was evil. I wonder what it was like to be him and make the momentous decision to act the way he did before knowing the outcome would fall on his side?

I'm 3/4s through Bonhoeffer.
http://www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor-Marty...

He was part of the Valkyrie Plot. You probably already know that but I added it for other's who might not. I have wondered for years what it was that took him to the point of being in an assassination plot. I good read. Tedious in detail but informative on many levels.
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159140 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Chris, I feel your pain here. Better to do what we can when we can and where we can than stir up a bee hive without the help of a beekeeper. This issue will be around as long as mankind/womankind exists on this earth.
Yes. Before 2004 when I was born again I didn't give a rip about abortion. For reasons that may only be known to God I very quickly went right to this battle. One thing that has really been with me for quite some time is the most passion I've seen over it was by a woman here that had an abortion. Nothing I could post here would do it justice but she has moved me to keep on keeping on! Better start supper. Take care.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159141 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I've been thinking about American terrorists lately, since I'm reading a book abou nationaland international reaction to one of America's first (terrorist/freedom fighter), John Brown.
Does the book go into anything that reveals his rational behind his actions? Do you think it was a combination of hating slavery and other issues in his life that made him snap or was it well reasoned and deliberate because he truly hated slavery?
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159142 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
This story has caused stir....... You may already have heard of it.
Catholic Ireland: Woman dies after abortion request refused
November 14, 2012
By: Michael StoneSubscribe
Savita Halappanavar was told she could not have a life saving abortion because Ireland was "a Catholic country." After being denied a life saving abortion at Galway University Hospital in Ireland, Savita Halappanavar died.
On Wednesday, November 13, about 2000 demonstrators gathered outside the Irish parliament In Ireland to protest the antiquated, and some say draconian, laws that lead to the needless death of Savita Halappanavar.
Halappanavar, a 31-year-old dentist, was 17 weeks pregnant when she died on October 28 after suffering a miscarriage and septicaemia.
Knowing that the fetus she carried was dying and would not survive, Halappanavar, suffering and in pain, asked repeatedly over a three-day period that her pregnancy be terminated. Yet despite the fact that the fetus was dying, the hospital denied her the right to abort an unviable fetus during a miscarriage. Many believe Halappanavar’s repeated requests for termination were denied because of the country’s anti-abortion Catholic beliefs.
===
I believe that has more to do with Irish governance than the Catholic church but if it does have to do with the church in Ireland they are wrong. I know for a fact that removal of the fetus for ectopic pregnancy was done in the catholic hospital in Des Moines.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159143 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Does the book go into anything that reveals his rational behind his actions? Do you think it was a combination of hating slavery and other issues in his life that made him snap or was it well reasoned and deliberate because he truly hated slavery?
What you're asking is why does someone become a martyr, and I don't think there is any one answer for it.

I think he truly believed in the righteousness of his cause. His justification, if not his planning, was well reasoned, and I don't think he just snapped.

Oh, and to prove that the more things change, the more they stay the same - the Democrats blamed the Republicans for Brown.

;-)

The book I'm reading is called The Tribunal, edited by John Stauffer and Zoe Trodd. It starts with selected works by Brown himself, then goes on to cover immediate reaction Norh and South, as well as national and international reaction over the next 50 years. It's all articles and letters, not a summary of the coverage by an author.

Since: Sep 10

Fremont, CA

#159144 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Can't be related to work in any way. What I mean is often acts of good are good but bring in customers, get our name out there, etc. If we come back to report that's self aggrandizement and is not a true act of charity or done for someone else instead of ourselves. Don't ya think?
I agree.

Anything done for any sort of personal gain doesn't qualify.
Dr Shrink

Baltimore, MD

#159145 Feb 5, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree.
Anything done for any sort of personal gain doesn't qualify.
you didn't make any changes at all?
if you agree or not?

but never forget dog of Bush was more smart from clowns like you and even from all those who today occupy rooms of White House,

just stay here and bumble your insanity, because on Jesus topic

All" saints" defeated you and your lawyer job being on the foodstamps past 12 months

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#159146 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Fear was only one ingredient in that perfect political storm which permitted Hitler to do what he did. There were boatloads of perfectly aligned contributing factors; the economy, the mood of the nation, the need to find someone to blame etc. all of which led to Hitler's rise to power but none of it could have propelled the carnage without Hitler himself. He prompted the excercise of political psychological profiling in living political figures prepared by the OSS now the CIA and they did a good job evaluating what was going on under Hitler's hood. Without the messianic view of himself, his brilliant speaking ability to rouse and his complicated and multiple psychological combinations, what occured in Europe and to what magnitude can probably never be replicated.

Here's an excerpt from those papers witten in 1943 you might find interesting.....
(see full text at #159086)
Very interesting. It's almost worth it to wade through your stream of consciousness character slurs and gratuitous demagoguery to get to these gems which you can produce when so moved. Well said.

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