Bush is a hero

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#159107 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
That is how it sounded to me too. He did not really justify the attacks on her with excuse that she was compensated, did he?
I too see Palin as having been attacked simply because the opposition had the audacity to ask her to be on the ticket. Then one of the most vicious attacks I can remember in my lifetime began.
One of the things I hear all the time about Palin is that she puts herself and her family out there. Therefore they deserve what they get an she's asking for it and exposing herself to it.

Then the next thing the seeming jealousy of the fact that she makes money off her appearances.

I dont want to put words in Hips mouth and i apologize if I'm wrong but Im fairly certain he has taken that stance before.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159108 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
My friends are truly a minority of awesome strong women. That is why they are my friends.
And that's very nice but experts agree they aren't representative of how the majority of women feel post abortion and I just wanted to make that clear for anyone who happens to be reading along.

Your particular scenario was curious to me on two levels. 1) That so "many" of your close friends had an abortion and 2) they are all experiencing an identical month long guilt reaction years after the fact. Generally there is a common denominator to such a phenomenon such as a religious component being involved or perhaps underlying issues.....
But whatever the reason, their reaction isn't the norm. I do hope their difficulties subside and vanish altogether.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159109 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Short answer - the people who make sweeping, broad brush assertions about the Tea Party are doing the same thing.
That said, the Tea Party is a mass movement. It has no platform, only vague principals. Mass movements are made up of a wide range of people holding all sorts of opinions, sometimes seemingly contradictory opinions.
Mass movements throughout history have been a vehicle by which extremists recruit and make their agendas acceptable to greater numbers of people. It doesn't matter if the mass movements or the extremists are left or right.
To use examples on the left, communists attempted to subvert the Civil Rights movement to their purposes. Communists and anarchists and wingnuts of all stripes tried to subvert the anti Vietnam war movement in the 60s.
In the 30s/early 40s, both left and right wing fanatics used the America First/isolationist movement for those purposes.
That's been my only concern about the Tea Party - that fanatics and extremists will use the anger and passion of its participants to recruit/inspire the next lone wolf warrior for the 'true America' McVeigh. I have the same concern about the imitation hippie space cadets of Occupy - that the next generation of left wing rebels without a clue SDS/Weather Underground bombers will spring forth from it.
There are mean, nasty, evil things that go bump in the night on the left and the right, Chris - and yes, they bear watching.
I haven't said anything more here than I've said before. I can't help or control what people chose to hear.
The big difference between the Tea Party movement and the others you've included would be the overall age of the group. The older folks of the Tea Party (over 40 crowd) verses those other groups made up of a lot of college kids who are easily manipulated. The Tea Party picks up their own trash. The kids, not so much. Kids smash windows and over turn cars, defecate in parks and sidewalks, and in general get carried away with themselves.
I agree that we should always be on guard against subversive movements even within what we consider a good cause. Ever Vigilant.
Disney

Prairie Village, KS

#159110 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Short answer - the people who make sweeping, broad brush assertions about the Tea Party are doing the same thing.
That said, the Tea Party is a mass movement. It has no platform, only vague principals. Mass movements are made up of a wide range of people holding all sorts of opinions, sometimes seemingly contradictory opinions.
Mass movements throughout history have been a vehicle by which extremists recruit and make their agendas acceptable to greater numbers of people. It doesn't matter if the mass movements or the extremists are left or right.
To use examples on the left, communists attempted to subvert the Civil Rights movement to their purposes. Communists and anarchists and wingnuts of all stripes tried to subvert the anti Vietnam war movement in the 60s.
In the 30s/early 40s, both left and right wing fanatics used the America First/isolationist movement for those purposes.
That's been my only concern about the Tea Party - that fanatics and extremists will use the anger and passion of its participants to recruit/inspire the next lone wolf warrior for the 'true America' McVeigh. I have the same concern about the imitation hippie space cadets of Occupy - that the next generation of left wing rebels without a clue SDS/Weather Underground bombers will spring forth from it.
There are mean, nasty, evil things that go bump in the night on the left and the right, Chris - and yes, they bear watching.
I haven't said anything more here than I've said before. I can't help or control what people chose to hear.
Ok, this is reasonable.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159111 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
And that's very nice but experts agree they aren't representative of how the majority of women feel post abortion and I just wanted to make that clear for anyone who happens to be reading along.
Your particular scenario was curious to me on two levels. 1) That so "many" of your close friends had an abortion and 2) they are all experiencing an identical month long guilt reaction years after the fact. Generally there is a common denominator to such a phenomenon such as a religious component being involved or perhaps underlying issues.....
But whatever the reason, their reaction isn't the norm. I do hope their difficulties subside and vanish altogether.
I have no idea why you felt you had to get back to this, why you felt the need to repeat yourself. Get on and take your sympathies elsewhere.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159112 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>For anyone interested in the way the Nazis took and exercised power, I'd recommend a three book series (The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, The Third Reich at War) by Richard J. Evans, a British historian.
It gets arcane at times (especially the Third Reich in Power), but the recitation of facts is interspersed with diary entries and other first person accounts of events as they unfolded, from supporters, opponents, and victims of Nazism.
Lyndi was quite right when she said "Fear was only one ingredient in that perfect political storm which permitted Hitler to do what he did. There were boatloads of perfectly aligned contributing factors; the economy, the mood of the nation, the need to find someone to blame etc. all of which led to Hitler's rise to power but none of it could have propelled the carnage without Hitler himself."
The Nazis did use fear as a propaganda tool. One way they did that was by appointing themselves as the arbiters of what was and what was not truly German, and the Germanism they promoted regarded Germany as special, as more important in the world than other nations, in a manner that is easily distinguished from 'ordinary' love of country. They were quite adept at taking a trivial or insignificant event by someone they regarded as not-German and turning it into an affront to the traditions of the Fatherland.
Now, there's nothing uniquely German or Nazi about that. It's just your garden variety propaganda technique, and you don't have to be a Nazi to do something like that. It's a tactic favored by demagogues everywhere.
I wonder if that's the kind of fear Pern is talking about.
Brilliantly said Willie and I thank you for adding more to this discussion than my measly abilities ever could.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159113 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not saying that her policies cannot be questioned, her political career, her funny way of talking or any number of things she does that are odd to you but when it comes to the gross things that were leveled at her and her family even I was surprised that even the women leaders of the Left kept silent and I don't expect much from them.
Women "from the left" can be very particular which women they will go to bat for and which ones they'll sit back and watch get batted around.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159114 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
But whatever the reason, their reaction isn't the norm. I do hope their difficulties subside and vanish altogether.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/interactive/discus...

Reading these women I don't get the impression they are religious, just hurting.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#159115 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no idea why you felt you had to get back to this, why you felt the need to repeat yourself. Get on and take your sympathies elsewhere.
I repeated myself because you skipped over the information I provided and made an irrelevant comment about your friendships. I believe passing out false information is always a bad idea and I'm sometimes compelled to get out the right information even if some may find it displeasing.
You're entitled to do anything you want with your opinions when they're flying around in your head but once they're out of your mouth they are mine to comment on.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159116 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
The big difference between the Tea Party movement and the others you've included would be the overall age of the group. The older folks of the Tea Party (over 40 crowd) verses those other groups made up of a lot of college kids who are easily manipulated. The Tea Party picks up their own trash. The kids, not so much. Kids smash windows and over turn cars, defecate in parks and sidewalks, and in general get carried away with themselves.
I agree that we should always be on guard against subversive movements even within what we consider a good cause. Ever Vigilant.
I know you can't characterize America First as a youth movement, and I question that with the civil rights movement although they did much of the grunt work.

Oh, and let's face it - the overwhelming majority of those who make up Occupy are eventually going to go get a bath, haircut and a real job and grow up to be the next Tea Party in a generation or two.

Since we're talking about a relatively small pool of people who might fall under the sway of extremists (again, regardless of the orientation of the movement or the extremists), I don't think the difference in age, manners, and grooming makes much difference. A vulnerable young person showing up at a TP rally may feel the 'old folks' aren't really doing enough to foster the 'new American Revolution', and look for someone promising more direct action.

I can't emphasize enough that we're talking about a relatively small pool of people who might fall under the sway of extremists - but it doesn't take many. Far right militias/white supremacists committed murders (financed by robberies) all over the Northwest, Colorado and the Midwest in the 80s. Far left bombers operated all over the country from the 60s through the 70s.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159117 Feb 5, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I know you can't characterize America First as a youth movement, and I question that with the civil rights movement although they did much of the grunt work.
Oh, and let's face it - the overwhelming majority of those who make up Occupy are eventually going to go get a bath, haircut and a real job and grow up to be the next Tea Party in a generation or two.
Since we're talking about a relatively small pool of people who might fall under the sway of extremists (again, regardless of the orientation of the movement or the extremists), I don't think the difference in age, manners, and grooming makes much difference. A vulnerable young person showing up at a TP rally may feel the 'old folks' aren't really doing enough to foster the 'new American Revolution', and look for someone promising more direct action.
I can't emphasize enough that we're talking about a relatively small pool of people who might fall under the sway of extremists - but it doesn't take many. Far right militias/white supremacists committed murders (financed by robberies) all over the Northwest, Colorado and the Midwest in the 80s. Far left bombers operated all over the country from the 60s through the 70s.
You are right. I can't argue with anything you've said here.

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

#159118 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
I repeated myself because you skipped over the information I provided and made an irrelevant comment about your friendships. I believe passing out false information is always a bad idea and I'm sometimes compelled to get out the right information even if some may find it displeasing.
You're entitled to do anything you want with your opinions when they're flying around in your head but once they're out of your mouth they are mine to comment on.
My original post:
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I have many friends who've had abortions and they still grieve for the children that they aborted. Even though they know the situations they found themselves in were very difficult, as adult women they know they could have done it differently. Each of them still remembers the day she went to the clinic and also suffers depression for the month that the abortion occurred in.
Where is the false information?
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159119 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Perception. We see what we need to see. You see a poor persecuted soccer mom. I see a gal who, if she's prudent, will never have to work another day in her life if she chooses, nor will her immediate family. Tooling around the nation in designer buses ain't cheap. Looks to me like she did quite well, working all sides of the "group" with brilliant results. A true American success story.
<quoted text>I propose that that's an abbreviated and flawed view of his rise to power. For the average Kraut in 1920's Germany, it had little to do with fear. Hitler restored a sense of national pride and prosperity, after the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles. It was only after he consolidated his hold on the reins that the really nasty stuff he'd been imagining got the go-ahead. By then the only way to dislodge him was murder death kill.
It appears you're avoiding a very simple question, which arose directly from your own proposition, but that's ok. In a world of relative truths, it ain't no thang;)
Be well. rk
That's exactly why we must remain alert, and the two term presidency is absolutely necessary. We sure don't want to resort to murder.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159120 Feb 5, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Catholic Centre Party, huh? If only entities had control over the name selections of extremist political parties. The integrity of dogs may never recover from the unfortunate endorsement of Cujo by the National Warm Puppy Coalition.
Can't help it, I'm laughing.
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159121 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
In part this is what I am talking about. Usually when a woman, especially an attractive woman and mother, is attacked it brings out a man's chivalrous nature. The things that were said about her, the sexual threats, the name calling, the sly attacks on her daughters would illicit something protective in a man. But, in this case, the pack overrides the chivalry and decency and even nice men become part of the gang and then it is justified with some jab that she'll be recompensed for it so it's all okay.
No, I am not avoiding the question of the inherent evil of mankind. It is in all of us but hopefully not all of us will give into it. It will not always make an appearance because it takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out. I think the attacks on Sarah Palin by the majority of media outlets caused a fury of like behavior in the general society and then an otherwise decent man like yourself was able to justify what was done to her.
I am not saying that her policies cannot be questioned, her political career, her funny way of talking or any number of things she does that are odd to you but when it comes to the gross things that were leveled at her and her family even I was surprised that even the women leaders of the Left kept silent and I don't expect much from them.
I am sorry to say that I wasn't shocked. Before wife and I were even married we started doing things together in missions. One of the first was work with a pregnancy here in town. I've been witness to pure hate by people that do all they can to stop it. Since I know Palin is also quite active in this area some on the far left will stop at nothing to that end. Its one of the reasons I quit posting in any abortion forum. I long ago found better use for my time and some of what I read made me weep.
Chris Clearwater

Clearwater, FL

#159122 Feb 5, 2013
pregnancy center.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159123 Feb 5, 2013
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right. I can't argue with anything you've said here.
I've been thinking about American terrorists lately, since I'm reading a book abou nationaland international reaction to one of America's first (terrorist/freedom fighter), John Brown.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159124 Feb 5, 2013
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Your friends made the wrong decision for THEMSELVES or perhaps their guilt is being perpetuated by outside influences but I promise you, they are in a minority.
Since the early 1980s, groups opposed to abortion have attempted to document the existence of "post-abortion syndrome," which they claim has traits similar to post-traumatic stress disorder demonstrated by some war veterans. In 1989, the American Psychological Association convened a panel of psychologists with extensive experience in this field to review the data. They reported that the studies with the most scientifically rigorous research designs consistently found no trace of "post-abortion syndrome" or long term guilt and furthermore, that no such syndrome is scientifically or medically recognized.
The panel concluded that "research with diverse samples, different measures of response, and different times of assessment have come to similar conclusions. The time of greatest distress is likely to be before the abortion. Severe negative reactions after abortions are rare and while some women may experience sensations of regret, sadness or guilt after an abortion, the overwhelming emotion is relief.
You may be correct in the majority but to eliminate the possibility of post-regret is irresponsible. As a clinician treating for severe depression I was surprised how often it turned out that a prior abortion contributed to this. It was usually the last thing uncovered, meaning it wasn't even being looked for. So a syndrome for the DSM, no, but it does exist.

“Help Cecil Help!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#159125 Feb 5, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Can't help it, I'm laughing.
It's not as unreasonable assumption ad you might think, because at the same time their were far right antidemocratic Catholic parties in parts of Europe. In Hungary and Spain they were significant if not dominant.
lisw

Delaware, OH

#159126 Feb 5, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's go out today and do something to make the country a better place.
Tomorrow, each of can report on what he/she did.
Can't be related to work in any way. What I mean is often acts of good are good but bring in customers, get our name out there, etc. If we come back to report that's self aggrandizement and is not a true act of charity or done for someone else instead of ourselves. Don't ya think?

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