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“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

Colorado

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#158939
Feb 3, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you been reading C.S. Lewis' "MERE CHRISTIANITY" lately, Pern, darling?
It has been many many years.
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
You said it VERY well :) When this subject comes up--moral relativism or pragmatism or subjective values or any of the many other names it's known by--I'm always interested to see how many people will hide behind "We have no right to judge/there are no moral absolutes, etc., etc." Bananas. There ARE such things as moral absolutes, and some things ARE always wrong, no matter what the circumstances.
I totally agree.
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
One example of this is murder. All, ALL societies, cultures, etc. on earth, and down through history, have considered murder to be wrong. Now, it's true that cultural differences may mean that what one individual or society or nation considers murder may be different from another's, for instance when a Muslim kills his daughter for speaking to a non-Muslim young man. WE would call that "murder," but many Muslims would call it an "honor killing."
Cultural differences do play a part in defining murder, but I've never yet heard of a society which says murder, in and of itself, is not wrong. And there are many other examples too.
But I digress. The point is that IF VALUES ARE ONLY "SUBJECTIVE," THEN NOTHING--NOTHING AT ALL--CAN BE CONSIDERED RIGHT OR WRONG. That is an incredibly dangerous idea. If values are only subjective or cultural or whatever, THEN EVERYONE IS FREE TO DECIDE FOR HIMSELF WHAT IS OKAY OR IS NOT OKAY. And if that line of thinking is followed to its logical conclusion, it can be--and has been--used to justify the most evil, horrific acts that the world has ever seen.
Ditto!
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Think about it. If what is right or wrong is only subjective, then killing millions of Jews in gas ovens was NOT wrong. Hitler thought it was okay. That was HIS standard. And if right and wrong are only what each of us thinks it is, THEN WE CANNOT CONDEMN HITLER OR ANY OF HIS CRONIES FOR THEIR "FINAL SOLUTION."
Preach it sista.
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>I can hear some of you now: "Ah, but most of the world thought/thinks the Holocaust was wrong! Besides, Hitler was a special case, since he was a megalomaniac. And since more people thought it was wrong than thought it was right, then it must have been wrong!"
Uh uh. You can't have it both ways. If right and wrong are only subjective values, then even if YOU think Hitler was wrong, you cannot criticize him for having different standards from your own. Nor can you criticize Osama bin Laden and 19 Muslim extremists for hijacking four jets and using them to kill 3000 people. THEY were only exercising THEIR values, weren't they?
Now, I'm not saying that little ol' me is the expert on what is right or wrong in any or all cases. I'm not that wise. What I am saying is this: even if we aren't always sure what is right or wrong, THEY EXIST. Denying that will only allow evil to flourish, because if there is no right or wrong, nothing can be considered evil either.
Or at least not until it's too late.
Well said!

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

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#158940
Feb 3, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you been reading C.S. Lewis' "MERE CHRISTIANITY" lately, Pern, darling?
Two things really impressed me. Your reasoning and way with words in that last post and my ability to remember how to do the quote breaks!

<3

“On a sailing ship to nowhere”

Since: Jun 07

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#158941
Feb 3, 2013
 
Okay, three, three things really impressed me in that post: Your reasoning and way with words, my ability to remember quote breaks, and the amount of words and your reference to Clive...okay four things, four things....

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

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#158942
Feb 3, 2013
 
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think I said what you are saying. I did not say that they need to come here and adopt Christianity. What I am saying is that those Western/Judeo Christian principles are already in place and are what formed this nation. Those should not be set aside by or even placed on equal footing with all other religions. We already are what we are.

People of other faiths are welcome to practice their religions in their communities with freedom. That is guaranteed in the first amendment. I think the founders knew full well that we would be a melting pot. I think it was intended, that is, if the Grand Experiment worked.
Where else would you get the idea that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights? Maybe they didn't think it through to apply it to the Black man or Native Americans but that eventually made it's way through the national mindset, albeit almost too late.

The founders took the best principles from the Bible and applied it as well as the other documents and schools of thought which you mentioned. They did not take it from a world religions course at the nearest university and did not seem to find the need to be politically pleasing to the entire world. They just wanted to give people a fighting chance to make something for themselves and their families. They felt that creating unity out of diversity was the best way. Of all the Western countries we seem to have the best chance of doing that.
When I require someone to take an oath with their hand on one particular book, and frown on them using any other book, then I might flatter myself that I'm not forcing them to adopt my belief, but I certainly am actively causing them to act like it in my presence, in order not to offend >my< sensibilities.

I'm not sure just which of the Articles of the US Constitution have precedence in the Bible, nor which principles can be said to be exclusive to same, but I'll not begrudge you your belief. Faith fills many a dug well.

The discussion involves original intent, and as you alluded, the result of the Founder's work may have aspired to greater things, but in application they managed to muddy it up. In addition to those you mentioned, they also left out at least half of the general population, namely the womenfolk. Straightening it out later is not germane to a discussion of original intent.

Referring to the specific discussion regarding Ellison, it might be wise to recall that had the Founders as a whole had an original "unifying" faith in mind, and put it to a vote, "Papists" might have had a hard go. Under your proposal, they could be as Catholic as they wanted as long as they kept it in Maryland. If they venture out they'd need to act like "us" - definition to be provided by "us". We'll have no keeping together in exclusive gatherings and performing strange rites not approved by "us". You can say that the differences are inconsequential to the laity today, but that itself is a late-20th century evolution, knowing very well that we've witnessed to this day in other rooms the bigotry still expressed by many against followers of the "Roman anti-Christ".

Likewise with Jews, which is doubly curious when we consider that the proposal alleges "Judeo"-Christian values. In fact the "nature's God" referred to in the Declaration may just as plausibly have been the God envisioned by the prominent Deists in the founding crowd. Fortunately they saw, as we can surely see, what a slippery slope it would be incorporating any specific "unifying" doctrines or creeds into the foundational document. So they didn't. They established the Rule of Law, based in precedent, and codified by the Constitution.

Live as you please, believe as you like, so long as you adhere to the Law grounded in the Constitution. The Constitution is our sole unity document. Nothing more or less should be required to be an American.

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

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#158943
Feb 3, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Rest assured it isn't. The World Idiot has different ways of being stupid. I think it's rider, just using a different nick.
Please note: I do NOT mean Rider on the Storm, a.k.a. Larry, who lives in Minnesota. I mean the other one. He's posted long swathes of cut&pasted like this before, although this particular batch is a particularly long one.
I shall of course defer to your tenure, as a guide to resident personalities, and take your word for this.
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

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#158944
Feb 3, 2013
 

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An NFL Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
So I'll be next, Somalian communist? You claim to be an American, yet you haven't the slightest concept of freedom of speech.
Let me know when you'll be around to arrest me, lowly pirate.
1st amendment of USC. Not a Somalian Private but Antiwar American! And you Us warmonger/war-for-profiteers/s oldiers of Fortune... as Bushjr & co had been tried for War crimes against humanity at Int'l war crimes Tribinal, you next, sooner or later... But you our US war monger ruined our civil liberties, and create US police State, and morally and financially bankrupted our US, now about history of fall of Empires? You war mongering Dimwit!

Since: Apr 07

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#158945
Feb 3, 2013
 
Pernrider wrote:
Okay, three, three things really impressed me in that post: Your reasoning and way with words, my ability to remember quote breaks, and the amount of words and your reference to Clive...okay four things, four things....
Bless your heart! Thanks, and you're no slouch with words yourself, Pernie :)

I HATE moral relativism, and have since my early 20s. When I first read "MERE CHRISTIANITY," about 15 years ago now, it really helped me put into words ideas that I had believed for many years, but had been unable to express effectively.

Why, why, WHY don't people understand that if a particular worldview/philosophy, etc. can ultimately be used to justify the most horrific, evil events the world has ever seen, THEY HAD BETTER EXAMINE IT VERY CAREFULLY before taking it seriously? I've never believed that pragmatism or existentialism or whatever have nothing whatsoever to offer, but to base your life on them--big difference. In my opinion, not just a big difference, but a tragic mistake.

Nitey nite. Me darling hubby got home 90 minutes ago for the first time in two weeks, and I have a severe case of snuggle deficiency ;)

“Brevity is the soule of wit”

Since: May 09

USA

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#158946
Feb 3, 2013
 

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idiot wrote:
<quoted text>

I am a Somalian Private not Antiwar American!

, you next, sooner or later... My mother has crabs.
Nice rant, imbecile. Do all Somalians lack imagination?
You've said that same dull sht many, many times before, Somalian pirate.

Let me know when you and Barney Fife will be arresting me, foreign fool.

Since: Apr 07

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#158947
Feb 3, 2013
 
Special to Catcher: Don't bother mentioning David Hume, Bertrand Russell or the others to me. I know what they believed, and I reject it.
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

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#158948
Feb 3, 2013
 

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An NFL Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
So I'll be next, Somalian communist? You claim to be an American, yet you haven't the slightest concept of freedom of speech.
Let me know when you'll be around to arrest me, lowly pirate.
Again not a Somalian Communist! You worst one you don't have Clue About Freedom Of Speech and HR347. Not a Somalian Pirate, sooner the International War crime Tribanal like Bush & co had been tried for war crimes against humanity, as you a cohorts of Bush & co Agendas. i have done anything wrong, I'm Just Anti-war American protesters. You our US wAR MONGER/WAR-FOR-PROFITEERS WILL BE OMNE FACING International War crimes Tribunal, Sooner or later you face ICC.

As you our obnoxious US war mongers/Soldier-of-firtune are lowest of low on the plane human, you having empathy and clueless what sanctity of life of life means not to be touched

Look Forest Gump! U war mongering grunts... Again, not a somilian butt private but Anti-War American. As to this post of your is infantile, filled with racism, ad homimem,... You our Us war mongers/war-for-profiteers of many illicit US wars started overseas had ruined our freedom and liberty, as no longer we are seeing freedom but FreeDOOM because you helped the corrupted leaders in power to created a US police State, and ruined our US civil liberties, and stepped on US constitional law with all extra-illegal constitutional Agendas, wired tape Americans without warrants, NDAA, CISPA and SOPA, Anti-protesting, MArtial law, PAtriot Act 1/2... and this had financially and morally BAnkrupted USA, you ignorant war mongering morons are ones ruined our world anmd US with your obnoxious War machines... you lowest of low on plane pof humanity, you are our US warmongering scvmbuckets. Ignorance is bliss for you, as you know no shame, you warring imbeciles, take time to ruminate if you have a brain! How is freedom Of Speech now, you dimwit.
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

United States

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#158949
Feb 3, 2013
 

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An NFL Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice rant, imbecile. Do all Somalians lack imagination?
You've said that same dull sht many, many times before, Somalian pirate.
Let me know when you and Barney Fife will be arresting me, foreign fool.
. Not a Somalian Pirate, sooner or later you ben facing the International War crime Tribanal like Bush & co had been tried for war crimes against humanity, as you a cohorts of Bush & co Agendas. i have not done anything wrong, I'm Just Anti-war American protesters. You our US wAR MONGER/WAR-FOR-PROFITEERS WILL BE ONE FACING International War crimes Tribunal, Sooner or later you face ICC.

“Brevity is the soule of wit”

Since: May 09

USA

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#158950
Feb 3, 2013
 

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idiot wrote:
<quoted text>

Again I am a Somalian Communist! The worst of my stupid kind.
Could you repeat that rambling rant for me? I don't think I've ever heard it before, ignorant Somalian pirate.

“Brevity is the soule of wit”

Since: May 09

USA

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#158952
Feb 3, 2013
 
idiot wrote:
<quoted text> .

I am a Somalian Pirate with Agendas. i have done many things wrong, I'm Just Anti-Semitic Somalian prostate.
Thanks for repeating that load of gas, Somalian. I'd never have know what you meant without your dull redundancies, dull freak.

“Brevity is the soule of wit”

Since: May 09

USA

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#158953
Feb 3, 2013
 
idiot wrote:
<quoted text>S/h/b I have done wrong, As Anti-Semitic foreigner have rights to rule out you Wrongs you our US war mongers/War-for-profiteers/ Arm-weapon MAnufacturers... had ruined US and world with your War machines
Wow. MORE repetition from the Somalian fool.

Encore! Encore!
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

United States

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#158954
Feb 3, 2013
 

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An NFL Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Could you repeat that rambling rant for me? I don't think I've ever heard it before, ignorant Somalian pirate.
. Not a Somalian Pirate, sooner or later you ben facing the International War crime Tribanal like Bush & co had been tried for war crimes against humanity, as you a cohorts of Bush & co Agendas. i have not done anything wrong, I'm Just Anti-war American protesters. You our US wAR MONGER/WAR-FOR-PROFITEERS WILL BE ONE FACING International War crimes Tribunal, Sooner or later you face ICC.

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

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#158955
Feb 3, 2013
 
Pernrider wrote:
<quoted text>
Wonderful! That is totally fine.
Oh, thank you, kindly patriot.
It's so comforting to have your officially stamped approval.
;)
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

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#158956
Feb 3, 2013
 

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Look you War mongering NFL, you not even human, you lowest of low on plane of humanity, War mongering brainless bloodly violent imp, can you not see all War-torned Children left parentless or dead because you Ignorant Soldier-of-fortune Stupid gunning actions. Ruminate if you human, you our war mongering Scvmbuckets soldier boyS Re ignorant! READ UP

A poem for peace , children from around the world want you soldiers to throw you guns away.

Why

Why is it that we fight
Religon, War and Hatred in our veins
Always at war
Always someone dieing
Can't we just stop
Stop the blood spilling
Stop the bones breaking

sarah clifford
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

United States

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#158957
Feb 3, 2013
 

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An NFL Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. MORE repetition from the Somalian fool.
Encore! Encore!
Look you War mongering NFL, you not even human, you lowest of low on plane of humanity, War mongering brainless bloodly violent imp, can you not see all War-torned Children left parentless or dead because you Ignorant Soldier-of-fortune Stupid gunning actions. Ruminate if you human, you our war mongering Scvmbuckets soldier boyS Re ignorant! READ UP

A poem for peace , children from around the world want you soldiers to throw you guns away.

Why

Why is it that we fight
Religon, War and Hatred in our veins
Always at war
Always someone dieing
Can't we just stop
Stop the blood spilling
Stop the bones breaking

sarah clifford

“Brevity is the soule of wit”

Since: May 09

USA

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#158958
Feb 3, 2013
 
idiot wrote:
<quoted text>.

I am a Somalian Pirate,

i have done many things wrong, I'm Just Anti-Semitic Somalian prostate. WILL BE ONE FACING International War crimes Tribunal, Sooner or later you face ICC.
Thanks for fully revealing your stupidity and lack of innovation, Somali pirate.

Tell me how you'll have me brought before a toothless 'tribunal', foreigner.
UidiotRaceMakeWo rldPeace

United States

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#158959
Feb 3, 2013
 

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An NFL Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. MORE repetition from the Somalian fool.
Encore! Encore!
Stop manipulating other posters posts! Not a Somalian look world the our US war mongers/Soldier -of Fortune NFL is Bully the Anti-war Americans and World Civilians... You should be ashame of yourself . You IDiot AKA The NFL Fan had manipulate posters postings, did you know violate Topix rules. BWHHAHAHAA

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