allen

Voorhees, NJ

#158271 Jan 28, 2013
bush I feel was racist but then changed his mind so yea.. I think he's pretty much a hero I mean look how much he donated...
allen

Voorhees, NJ

#158272 Jan 28, 2013
bush is an extremely intelligent guy if anything..

he doesn'tr eally have beliefs he just wants to be popular.. and he deserves every bit of it..

he knows how to flip flop

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#158273 Jan 28, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>In the original exchange you compared reproductive health care imposed by the government to things like drug and food safety and proper working conditions. I held that protecting people from toxic work environments and food and drugs was to keep one group of people from hurting another.
Thousands of treatments are afforded millions of people, paid thru insurance, for which no one is or will be affected but the patient. I shouldn't have to give examples - it's too patently obvious. Yet I've given a couple which are reasonable extensions of that argument. You see those examples, and take the easy route of accusation, rather than accept you might not have thoroughly considered the ramifications of your proposal.
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Birth control is a self-driven protection of oneself. No one is endangering another person. You turned that around on me completely.
I turned nothing. I took your argument to a viable and logical extension. But it's just silly. An antibiotic or steroid regimen is very often just "self-driven protection of self". Tough it out, we could say - a bladder or yeast infection affects no one but oneself. Go home and drink copious amounts of cranberry juice. We could reel off example after example without "twisting" a thing.

The very volume of it's use reduces the cost, so cost is a minimal factor. Group insurance puts downward pressure even more on the cost. It is used by the vast majority of the target population, inc. those among the groups claiming ideological opposition, and it's widespread availability benefits society at large. Opposition to contraception is driven by one group trying to impose their personal morality and/or ideology beyond those not within that group. It is NOT a business decision.
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I do beg your pardon Hip but I believe if I said just "I disagree" you would see it as an ad hominem attack.
Silliness. I think I know a personal attack when I see one and that isn't even in the same state. No need to beg my pardon, just how about we stick to the discussion as it unfolds naturally and leave the predictions and reactions based on those presuppositions to the soothsayers?
UidiotRaceMAKEWO LRDPEACE

United States

#158274 Jan 28, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>Many of my views are quite middle of the road. I don't see common decency as a legacy of the left. It's why I liked Romney.
You mean the Flip Flopping Flopper Predatory Corporatist carpetbagger Schemer ROMEney ROwmoney Romney you Middle class lifestyle into the gutter, no wonder you clueless...
UidiotRaceMAKEWO LRDPEACE

United States

#158275 Jan 28, 2013
allen wrote:
bush I feel was racist but then changed his mind so yea.. I think he's pretty much a hero I mean look how much he donated...
Oh yea bushjr donated his biggest war mongering War debts to tune of trillion plus USdollar Year on Year since he become ughlord Dicktator Warmongering Us President, and this had financially and morally bankrupted the US. What you been smoking lately?

WBHAHHAHAaa
lisw

Delaware, OH

#158276 Jan 28, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>First of all, that 'very intricate network' you talk has AT LEAST 50 variables - and they're better in some places than they are in others.
Second, I've never said that no one can get help. All I was trying to point out is that there is a specific problem in those fifty 'very intricate networks' when it comes to the small number of individuals with a propensity to violence because of mental illness.
Most of these cases don't 'rack up" the death toll of a Tucson or Aurora or Sandy Hook. Often there's only one or two victims - a cop, a family member, a minister, some random stranger. Sometimes it's whole families.
No - not every family has attempted to get help, but all too often they (sometimes even the individual themselves) have tried and failed. They get a ten or twenty or thirty day stay in the hospital, a handful of pills on discharge, and not much else. Sometimes they don't even get that.
I'm also not suggesting there are easy answers. There's a delicate balance between the civil liberties of the mentally ill and the need for society to protect itself (and those who suffer from mental illness) from the fallout from that disease.
The fifty states are pretty similar and if they even have 1/2 of what Iowa and Ohio have then we are doing alot right. But I agree people do fall through the cracks just like they fall through the cracks of the justice system. I watched a show about serial killers. Many had juvenile records, that of course were sealed and I mean records of murder.
The incidents you are talking about, release from the hospital with no follow-up are perhaps just things you've heard about. Like any illness a follow-up plan is always put into place (hospitals all have social workers)but like any illness it is up to the patient to follow through. You get alot of heart patients that don't take their meds and follow up with the doctor. So far it is not a crime to be mentally ill. Now when someone reveals that they are dangerous and they do many times it is imperative that there is proper follow up, forced follow up if you will. That may be where the real cracks are and I am so willing to talk about that. Duty to warn has been in place for a very long time. If the clinician doesn't know he can't warn, if he does he'd better make sure the person is committed. The Aurora and the Sandy Hook cases appear to me to be someone not following through properly. So who do we penalize?
lisw

Delaware, OH

#158277 Jan 28, 2013
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Thousands of treatments are afforded millions of people, paid thru insurance, for which no one is or will be affected but the patient. I shouldn't have to give examples - it's too patently obvious. Yet I've given a couple which are reasonable extensions of that argument. You see those examples, and take the easy route of accusation, rather than accept you might not have thoroughly considered the ramifications of your proposal.
<quoted text>I turned nothing. I took your argument to a viable and logical extension. But it's just silly. An antibiotic or steroid regimen is very often just "self-driven protection of self". Tough it out, we could say - a bladder or yeast infection affects no one but oneself. Go home and drink copious amounts of cranberry juice. We could reel off example after example without "twisting" a thing.
The very volume of it's use reduces the cost, so cost is a minimal factor. Group insurance puts downward pressure even more on the cost. It is used by the vast majority of the target population, inc. those among the groups claiming ideological opposition, and it's widespread availability benefits society at large. Opposition to contraception is driven by one group trying to impose their personal morality and/or ideology beyond those not within that group. It is NOT a business decision.
<quoted text>Silliness. I think I know a personal attack when I see one and that isn't even in the same state. No need to beg my pardon, just how about we stick to the discussion as it unfolds naturally and leave the predictions and reactions based on those presuppositions to the soothsayers?
You will find whatever you are looking for.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#158278 Jan 28, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The answer is that my respect for Lyndi's opinions, and for her intellect, is the same as it was at the start. Lyndi is no dummy, and she expresses herself very well, probably better than 95% of the posters I have encountered on Topix.
Lyndi and I have gone over the issues, we know where we disagree. If questions are asked, I will answer. Otherwise I will share opinions but don't feel obligated to debate each point, each time.
So tell us. What do you think of the "pathway to citizenship" bipartisan proposal for undocumented immigrants?
OK fine counsellor.

Simply stated, I support Sen Rubio's plan for Immigration Reform. I doubt if either the House OR Obama can conjure up a better blueprint.

IINM, Sen Rubio discussed his plan (at least a mock-up) about 8 days ago on Fox News, and it sounded like the best way forward.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#158279 Jan 28, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Is there anyone besides you who offers an opinion on an issue related to mental health who knows what they're talking about, lisw?
What's the bfd? If someone worked the professional field for a considerable amount of time, it only follows they would have a better understanding of the procedures than a para-legal or a farmer.

In this case, a retired mental health pro can usually tell by what a lay person is saying, whether they know what they're talking about or not. It's really not that big of a freakin' mystery.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#158280 Jan 28, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
OK fine counsellor.
Simply stated, I support Sen Rubio's plan for Immigration Reform. I doubt if either the House OR Obama can conjure up a better blueprint.
IINM, Sen Rubio discussed his plan (at least a mock-up) about 8 days ago on Fox News, and it sounded like the best way forward.
Good for you. The Senate bipartisan proposal goes a bit further, with a path to citizenship over time. Rubio's plan excluded citizenship, just residency.

I prefer the Senate plan, but either way it's a step in the right direction--if it can get by the House.

“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#158281 Jan 28, 2013
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>The fifty states are pretty similar and if they even have 1/2 of what Iowa and Ohio have then we are doing alot right. But I agree people do fall through the cracks just like they fall through the cracks of the justice system. I watched a show about serial killers. Many had juvenile records, that of course were sealed and I mean records of murder.
The incidents you are talking about, release from the hospital with no follow-up are perhaps just things you've heard about. Like any illness a follow-up plan is always put into place (hospitals all have social workers)but like any illness it is up to the patient to follow through. You get alot of heart patients that don't take their meds and follow up with the doctor. So far it is not a crime to be mentally ill. Now when someone reveals that they are dangerous and they do many times it is imperative that there is proper follow up, forced follow up if you will. That may be where the real cracks are and I am so willing to talk about that. Duty to warn has been in place for a very long time. If the clinician doesn't know he can't warn, if he does he'd better make sure the person is committed. The Aurora and the Sandy Hook cases appear to me to be someone not following through properly. So who do we penalize?
Penalize?

I'm not looking to penalize anyone, lisw (and certainly not looking to criminalize mental illness).

At the very least I'm looking for ways to PREVENT future instances (knowing that we can't prevent all of them, and the hardest ones to prevent may be the most sensational). I'm also looking for a way to help the afflicted individuals and their families BEFORE they commit these kinds of acts - be it the murder of an individual or family, or a Tucson/Aurora/Sandy Hook.

I think we have come to rely too much on medication; I think we've made commitment too difficult; I think we've made it harder to get guardianship assigned as a way to keep the necessary people informed and still comply with HIPAA; and frankly, we 'street' some people far too quickly.
UidiotRaceMAKEWO LRDPEACE

United States

#158282 Jan 28, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Penalize?
I'm not looking to penalize anyone, lisw (and certainly not looking to criminalize mental illness).
At the very least I'm looking for ways to PREVENT future instances (knowing that we can't prevent all of them, and the hardest ones to prevent may be the most sensational). I'm also looking for a way to help the afflicted individuals and their families BEFORE they commit these kinds of acts - be it the murder of an individual or family, or a Tucson/Aurora/Sandy Hook.
I think we have come to rely too much on medication; I think we've made commitment too difficult; I think we've made it harder to get guardianship assigned as a way to keep the necessary people informed and still comply with HIPAA; and frankly, we 'street' some people far too quickly.
Violent Video games?

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#158283 Jan 28, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Good for you. The Senate bipartisan proposal goes a bit further, with a path to citizenship over time. Rubio's plan excluded citizenship, just residency.
I prefer the Senate plan, but either way it's a step in the right direction--if it can get by the House.
Save it. If it was up to me, these border jumpers would be required to self deport back to their home countries, and reenter the US legally as the other immigrants who actually respect our laws did. They would not be eligible for ANY entitlements, other than emergency critical medical treatment.

Pretty sure that Rubio agreed a week ago that as long as these people went to the back of the citizenship line, he'd be ok with that. But the details for whichever plan is implemented, will still need to be hammered out and tweaked.

“Mean People Suck”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#158284 Jan 28, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
What's the bfd? If someone worked the professional field for a considerable amount of time, it only follows they would have a better understanding of the procedures than a para-legal or a farmer.
In this case, a retired mental health pro can usually tell by what a lay person is saying, whether they know what they're talking about or not. It's really not that big of a freakin' mystery.
Still pissed about the catcher stuff, are we, bobby?

Anyway ...

In this instance many consumers of mental health services have a vastly different view of the availability of care and the system of care than the rather rosy picture of the 'intricate systems' painted by lisw.

I doubt there's a person posting in this thread who hasn't seen, in the aftermath of a tragic case where a mentally ill person kills someone, the obligatory interview with the perpetrators family where they recount their frustrations in getting help for them. The larger an area you live in (or follow the news from), the more often you've seen it.

I understand that lisw is a fierce advocate of her patients - that she wants to protect them from the kind of backlash that certain people anxious to turn the conversation away from their special interest seem to be encouraging. Those are not, and never have been, the intent of any comments I've made.

So ... there's your answer, bobby. Snarl away.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#158285 Jan 28, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Save it. If it was up to me, these border jumpers would be required to self deport back to their home countries, and reenter the US legally as the other immigrants who actually respect our laws did. They would not be eligible for ANY entitlements, other than emergency critical medical treatment.
Pretty sure that Rubio agreed a week ago that as long as these people went to the back of the citizenship line, he'd be ok with that. But the details for whichever plan is implemented, will still need to be hammered out and tweaked.
It hurts, huh?

But hey, it's a price you have to pay to keep the Republican party from fading away.

Hey Bob, these are real people, no different from you and me. We should follow the golden rule.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#158287 Jan 29, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Penalize?
I'm not looking to penalize anyone, lisw (and certainly not looking to criminalize mental illness).

At the very least I'm looking for ways to PREVENT future instances (knowing that we can't prevent all of them, and the hardest ones to prevent may be the most sensational). I'm also looking for a way to help the afflicted individuals and their families BEFORE they commit these kinds of acts - be it the murder of an individual or family, or a Tucson/Aurora/Sandy Hook.

I think we have come to rely too much on medication; I think we've made commitment too difficult; I think we've made it harder to get guardianship assigned as a way to keep the necessary people informed and still comply with HIPAA; and frankly, we 'street' some people far too quickly.
Excellent.

And the reasons this last paragraph are sad but true are not a lack of compassion in the field. It has far more to do with lack of resources on the part of the ill, coupled with chronically reduced funding from the gov't, ie, taxes.

A healthy society takes care of their own. Our society does not appear to be healthy, by most measures. Sure, our life expectancy is right up there, but a visit to a nursing home will disabuse one of any rosy notions of the general quality of that extended life.

Musing - Ayn Rand's utopia would be peopled only with the quick and the strong.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#158288 Jan 29, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
It hurts, huh?
But hey, it's a price you have to pay to keep the Republican party from fading away.
Hey Bob, these are real people, no different from you and me. We should follow the golden rule.
NO DIFFERENT?? They violated our law, Chaser! Every one of them.

It's bleeding heart Libs like you that have nearly bankrupt CA and sent the US into ginormous debt.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#158289 Jan 29, 2013
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Still pissed about the catcher stuff, are we, bobby?
Anyway ...
In this instance many consumers of mental health services have a vastly different view of the availability of care and the system of care than the rather rosy picture of the 'intricate systems' painted by lisw.
I doubt there's a person posting in this thread who hasn't seen, in the aftermath of a tragic case where a mentally ill person kills someone, the obligatory interview with the perpetrators family where they recount their frustrations in getting help for them. The larger an area you live in (or follow the news from), the more often you've seen it.
I understand that lisw is a fierce advocate of her patients - that she wants to protect them from the kind of backlash that certain people anxious to turn the conversation away from their special interest seem to be encouraging. Those are not, and never have been, the intent of any comments I've made.
So ... there's your answer, bobby. Snarl away.
The line between my grumpy "snarling" and your icy sarcasm is pretty thin, Wilson.

Disney

United States

#158290 Jan 29, 2013
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
NO DIFFERENT?? They violated our law, Chaser! Every one of them.
It's bleeding heart Libs like you that have nearly bankrupt CA and sent the US into ginormous debt.
True words. And he spits on people like my pastor that has such a love for this nation he gave up everything to do it the right way. But we know libs like him don't give a damn about what's right.

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#158291 Jan 29, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
It hurts, huh?
But hey, it's a price you have to pay to keep the Republican party from fading away.
Hey Bob, these are real people, no different from you and me. We should follow the golden rule.
Do you think the Dems are following the golden rule or just buying votes? Not that it really matters..........

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