There is Everything Wrong with Abortion

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#232159 Apr 7, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
You know in your heart that it's murder. You're obviously just looking for some justification for it. Is everything that is, or has been legal to do, right to do? Of course not. It's often only a means of justification for the self-serving. Stop denying the truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-justificati...
No, I don't know that. Murder is an illegal act. Abortion is not murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

Point. Set. Match.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

#232160 Apr 7, 2014
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that gives any rights to wads of goo. The woman has the right to make all of the medical decisions regarding her body, which is the only body of concern, there are no children involved.
Row V Wade never contradicted your claim because there is nothing to contradict. A person's right begin once they are born and become a person.
To the contrary, at the time the 14th Amendment was adopted, abortion was already illegal or being made illegal throughout the nation. The criminalization of abortion accelerated during the 1860s, and by 1900 it was generally considered a felony in every state. To there was no reason for Congress to specifically discuss the unborn in their debate on the 14th Amendment. The unborn were already a protected class in the U.S.

House sponsor John Bingham explained the intent when he argued that the Amendment was intended to be universal and to apply to any human being.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

#232161 Apr 7, 2014
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
There were people pushing for the abolition of slavery well before the Declaration of Independence. They recognized early on that the blacks had the same rights as whites.
In sharp contrast, abortion affects only one human being, and she has every right to make all of the medical decisions regarding her own body. The only way that rights can be violated WRT abortion is by the denial of a woman's right to get one.
<quoted text>
The claim that a wad of goo is a person is merely your particular delusion, certainly it is not a recognized fact.
<quoted text>
Only if you have ANY valid evidence that that is what PP is/was doing. Don't bother pointing to anti-abortion sites, show me objective, testable evidence supporting your claim
1. There are people today pushing for the abolition of abortion just as it was with slavery. They recognize that all human beings have the equal right to life. Pro-choice is a deceptive term since it respects the right to choose only of the most powerful of the two individuals involved, just as it is with slavery.

2. Denying a woman the right to an abortion in most cases is the same as denying her the right to murder. It is a known scientific fact in our modern times that our lives begin at conception. Your viewpoint can't be logically argued.

3. There's no shortage of evidence that PP evolved from the specific ideas about eugenics in the twentieth century, and that abortion was just a continuation of that idea after forced sterilizations were abolished. PP initially targeted only black neighborhoods, but it soon also included the poor whites. Before that time most black women wouldn't even think of killing their child, and most abortions were committed by whites. Now half of all blacks in America are killed before they are born. Any third rate investigation into it should help you find these facts. There's too many clues.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

#232162 Apr 7, 2014
Liam R wrote:
Except the entire point of predestination is that the choices are only an illusion, that it has already been determined that that fetus would not survive to term and live birth. Whether getting an abortion, or getting hit by a bus, it will happen as scheduled.
<quoted text>
Perhaps I would have made my point better if I had said ALL choices are only an illusion. It doesn't matter if the woman "chooses" to get an abortion, or she desperately wants to continue the pregnancy so that some day she will have a child, predestination says that if the pregnancy is meant to not carry to full term, then it will not carry to full term. The woman's "choice" in the matter is an illusion, predestination said that she was going to have an abortion at such-and-such a time, on such-and-such a date, in such-and-such a place. That fate was determined before the woman's grandmother was born.
Regardless of whether or not they are predestined to be murderers, it is still wrong.

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#232163 Apr 7, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Regardless of whether or not they are predestined to be murderers, it is still wrong.
That is not your call. You aren't the one pregnant.
You NEVER EVER get to make that decision for a woman.
Ever.
Just bites at you, doesn't it?

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232164 Apr 8, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
You forgot about the right of the child again.
I'll restate those three choices again in plain english:
1. Keep the baby.
2. Give the baby up for adoption
3. Murder the baby
Murder is never the right option, nor should it be legal.
No one here has ever advocated murder. And by definition, murder is illegal and always has been.

Of course, the rational people here advocate for access to abortion so as to prevent possible murder of babies.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232165 Apr 8, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
To the contrary, at the time the 14th Amendment was adopted, abortion was already illegal or being made illegal throughout the nation. The criminalization of abortion accelerated during the 1860s, and by 1900 it was generally considered a felony in every state. To there was no reason for Congress to specifically discuss the unborn in their debate on the 14th Amendment. The unborn were already a protected class in the U.S.
House sponsor John Bingham explained the intent when he argued that the Amendment was intended to be universal and to apply to any human being.
Gross conceptual error. Laws do not trump the Constitution, the Constitution trumps laws. As such, it does not matter if or when laws were passed, since the ratification of the Bill of Rights, women have had a right to make private decisions about their health care. The mere fact that it took up until 1973 to recognize that that included the right for women to seek an abortion does not change the fact that that right was always there. Heck, it took decades to recognize that women had a Constitutional right to own property.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232166 Apr 8, 2014
Wow. your zealotry has totally blinded you to things like what constitutes a "fact".
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
1. There are people today pushing for the abolition of abortion just as it was with slavery. They recognize that all human beings have the equal right to life. Pro-choice is a deceptive term since it respects the right to choose only of the most powerful of the two individuals involved, just as it is with slavery.
And there are people pushing for the destruction of America. There are people pushing for the deportation of all blacks and Latinos, to make America racially pure. There are people pushing to make xianity the only legal religion in America, in utter defiance of the Constitution. I even found a web site pushing for recognition of the Earth as flat because that is what the Bible teaches.

The term pro-choice recognizes that the choice is being made by the only person affected by that choice.
LightForce wrote:
2. Denying a woman the right to an abortion in most cases is the same as denying her the right to murder. It is a known scientific fact in our modern times that our lives begin at conception. Your viewpoint can't be logically argued.
Utter nonsense. No one has a right to murder. And the ONLY fact that science can state is that the wad of goo has a genetic code distinct from the mother's. Claiming that that constitutes "our lives" is just wishful thinking on your part.

And if my viewpoint could not be logically argued, then I would not be arguing that point....
LightForce wrote:
3. There's no shortage of evidence that PP evolved from the specific ideas about eugenics in the twentieth century, and that abortion was just a continuation of that idea after forced sterilizations were abolished. PP initially targeted only black neighborhoods, but it soon also included the poor whites. Before that time most black women wouldn't even think of killing their child, and most abortions were committed by whites. Now half of all blacks in America are killed before they are born. Any third rate investigation into it should help you find these facts. There's too many clues.
No blacks have ever been killed before they were born. Not one.

Frankly, even if your allegations about Planned Parenthood were true, I would still support the work they do NOW. Sure, misguided eugenics are wrong, no problem agreeing with you there. Henry Ford supported the Nazis. Does that mean that no one should ever buy a Ford car today? Organizations, like people, learn and grow and can overcome bad beginnings with conscious efforts.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232167 Apr 8, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Regardless of whether or not they are predestined to be murderers, it is still wrong.
So, you REALLY do not understand the whole point of "predestination", do you?

Consider this: You stand on top of a tall building, holding a rock. Let go of the rock over the edge. Now tell the rock not to fall. Be sure to speak loudly and clearly tot hat falling rock. Do you think that the rock will not hit the ground?

In predestination, there is no free will, EVERYTHING has already been determined. Whether or not a pregnant woman will carry to term, or get hit & killed by a bus, or have an abortion. Note: she is NOT "choosing" to get an abortion, the woman has no more choice in the matter than does the rock in my example above.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

#232168 Apr 9, 2014
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
Gross conceptual error. Laws do not trump the Constitution, the Constitution trumps laws. As such, it does not matter if or when laws were passed, since the ratification of the Bill of Rights, women have had a right to make private decisions about their health care. The mere fact that it took up until 1973 to recognize that that included the right for women to seek an abortion does not change the fact that that right was always there. Heck, it took decades to recognize that women had a Constitutional right to own property.
I was just pointing out the intent of the 14th Amendment as was stated by House sponsor John Bingham who stated that the 14th Amendment was intended to be universal and to apply to any human being.. So if your argument is that laws do not trump Constitution, you would have to agree that all human beings have the equal right to life., and also that preborn children are considered human beings as it was also considered at the time The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was written as is witnessed by the fact that abortion was a felony in every state. The unborn were already protected so there was no need to mention the already obvious, that they are included in “persons”- or human beings.

Though it is true that women have always had the right to make private decisions about their health care, they have not always had the right to kill their children. And health reasons for having an abortion only constitutes at the most one-percent of all abortions regardless of what you think the best “excuse” might be.

”How strangely will the tools of a tyrant pervert the plain meaning of words!” Samuel Adams
LightForce

Rockford, MI

#232169 Apr 9, 2014
Liam R wrote:
Wow. your zealotry has totally blinded you to things like what constitutes a "fact".
<quoted text>
And there are people pushing for the destruction of America. There are people pushing for the deportation of all blacks and Latinos, to make America racially pure. There are people pushing to make xianity the only legal religion in America, in utter defiance of the Constitution. I even found a web site pushing for recognition of the Earth as flat because that is what the Bible teaches.
The term pro-choice recognizes that the choice is being made by the only person affected by that choice.
<quoted text>
Utter nonsense. No one has a right to murder. And the ONLY fact that science can state is that the wad of goo has a genetic code distinct from the mother's. Claiming that that constitutes "our lives" is just wishful thinking on your part.
And if my viewpoint could not be logically argued, then I would not be arguing that point....
<quoted text>
No blacks have ever been killed before they were born. Not one.
Frankly, even if your allegations about Planned Parenthood were true, I would still support the work they do NOW. Sure, misguided eugenics are wrong, no problem agreeing with you there. Henry Ford supported the Nazis. Does that mean that no one should ever buy a Ford car today? Organizations, like people, learn and grow and can overcome bad beginnings with conscious efforts.
1. Yes, I could have easily used that same argument in response to your original comment, but instead I chose to use logic. To the contrary, the only relationship that your examples here have to abortion is that some of them may be just as wrong. So I guess then that you could add to your list “people advocating for the murder of millions of children”.

2. Do try to logically argue it.

3. Half of all blacks are killed before ever being born. This is in sharp contrast to most blacks being against abortion before PP infiltrated their neighborhoods and began promoting abortion as a good thing. Remember that the KKK and Margaret Sanger had a great influence on PP and why they are what they are today – an abortion mill. To the contrary, there are thousands of other clinics that women can go to to get real help with their pregnancies without the preconceived bias towards abortion that PP has.

If the Nazi's were still being funded by Henry Ford today, I would not by a Ford. For the same reason I wouldn't go to PP because it helps to keep them in business to continue their eugenics agenda.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232170 Apr 10, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
I was just pointing out the intent of the 14th Amendment as was stated by House sponsor John Bingham who stated that the 14th Amendment was intended to be universal and to apply to any human being.. So if your argument is that laws do not trump Constitution, you would have to agree that all human beings have the equal right to life., and also that preborn children are considered human beings as it was also considered at the time The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was written as is witnessed by the fact that abortion was a felony in every state. The unborn were already protected so there was no need to mention the already obvious, that they are included in “persons”- or human beings.
Why do you hate logic so much?

Laws never trump the Constitution. However, it does not follow that wads of goo are persons. The mere fact that there were laws against abortion does not change that fact. Some time, you should look into some of the other laws that were on the books back then, things that would be considered GROSS violations of civil rights today.

In any event, the 14th Amendment specifically does NOT apply to fetuses:

14th Amentment
Section 1. All persons BORN...
LightForce wrote:
Though it is true that women have always had the right to make private decisions about their health care, they have not always had the right to kill their children. And health reasons for having an abortion only constitutes at the most one-percent of all abortions regardless of what you think the best “excuse” might be.
”How strangely will the tools of a tyrant pervert the plain meaning of words!” Samuel Adams
Roe v Wade has already determined that the woman's right to privacy in making medical decisions concerning her own body means that she can make decisions regarding abortion, just like any other medical decision. A woman does not need to have her health endangered to choose to have a boob job. Had there been any legitimate legal backing for considering a wad of goo to be a person as defined under the law, then R v W could not have been decided as it was.

In other words, you will need to find LEGITIMATE objective, testable evidence showing that a fetus is a PERSON. The mere fact that it has an independent DNA structure is obviously not nearly enough.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232171 Apr 10, 2014
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Yes, I could have easily used that same argument in response to your original comment, but instead I chose to use logic. To the contrary, the only relationship that your examples here have to abortion is that some of them may be just as wrong. So I guess then that you could add to your list “people advocating for the murder of millions of children”.
2. Do try to logically argue it.
3. Half of all blacks are killed before ever being born. This is in sharp contrast to most blacks being against abortion before PP infiltrated their neighborhoods and began promoting abortion as a good thing. Remember that the KKK and Margaret Sanger had a great influence on PP and why they are what they are today – an abortion mill. To the contrary, there are thousands of other clinics that women can go to to get real help with their pregnancies without the preconceived bias towards abortion that PP has.
If the Nazi's were still being funded by Henry Ford today, I would not by a Ford. For the same reason I wouldn't go to PP because it helps to keep them in business to continue their eugenics agenda.
No one, black white green or blue, has ever been killed before they were born. It is impossible.

As for blacks having a disproportionate percentage of abortions, one need only look at the demographics of poverty. POOR women are more likely to get an abortion - especially through PP than are rich women, and blacks are disproportionately poor.

Since: Oct 13

Sweden

#232172 Apr 24, 2014
Hm :/ same guys here as for three months ago... okidoke

Abortion is disgusting, but between a mother and her fetus, and even her infant- the mother is the one who can fear death. She has priority- should the extremest situations occur. Pregnancy isn't allways that devine ritual which makes the "The American Dream" come true.

No. There be pain, blood and tears- to sometimes fatal results for all the involved. Labour, to some, is a fucked up remnant of Stone Age- where scientific progress should've stepped in long ago with optional ways for reproduction. It should be made illegal for women to not check themselves for pregnancy after unprotected sex- a week before and after menstruation.

Obviously this law can't be enforced practically, but if unwanted pregnancy occurs, without there being any sign of mental illness or physical force(like rape), late abortion should be punishable... < abit harsh that, but I'm open for suggestions.

We all hate abortion, so let's discuss the means to phase it out from the many ways to not have children- of which celibacy is NOT an option either!!

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#232174 Apr 25, 2014
AverageGuy87 wrote:
Hm :/ same guys here as for three months ago... okidoke
Abortion is disgusting, but between a mother and her fetus, and even her infant- the mother is the one who can fear death. She has priority- should the extremest situations occur. Pregnancy isn't allways that devine ritual which makes the "The American Dream" come true.
No. There be pain, blood and tears- to sometimes fatal results for all the involved. Labour, to some, is a fucked up remnant of Stone Age- where scientific progress should've stepped in long ago with optional ways for reproduction. It should be made illegal for women to not check themselves for pregnancy after unprotected sex- a week before and after menstruation.
Obviously this law can't be enforced practically, but if unwanted pregnancy occurs, without there being any sign of mental illness or physical force(like rape), late abortion should be punishable... < abit harsh that, but I'm open for suggestions.
We all hate abortion, so let's discuss the means to phase it out from the many ways to not have children- of which celibacy is NOT an option either!!
Again, you are leaving the onus on women. Where does the man's responsibility lie? Should it be illegal for men to NOT wear a condom? Or to walk away from his child?

Since: Oct 13

Sweden

#232175 Apr 25, 2014
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, you are leaving the onus on women. Where does the man's responsibility lie? Should it be illegal for men to NOT wear a condom? Or to walk away from his child?
Well I imagine most couples prefer to not use condom. And as for abandoning parental responsibility- that's far past whether abortion is ok or not, isn't it?

Like I said, it's impossible to force women into pregnancy tests. But after fertile sex occurs, women have at least two-three months to find out if they're pregnant- and abort before the fetus developes into a baby. It's waiting past that deadline that should be made illegal- and even though the father has responsibility in this aswell, it's up to the woman alone to test to herself for pregnancy and allso to sign up for abortion.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#232176 Apr 25, 2014
AverageGuy87 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I imagine most couples prefer to not use condom. And as for abandoning parental responsibility- that's far past whether abortion is ok or not, isn't it?
Like I said, it's impossible to force women into pregnancy tests. But after fertile sex occurs, women have at least two-three months to find out if they're pregnant- and abort before the fetus developes into a baby. It's waiting past that deadline that should be made illegal- and even though the father has responsibility in this aswell, it's up to the woman alone to test to herself for pregnancy and allso to sign up for abortion.
It may be that YOU prefer not to use a condom. Please don't speak for others.

If men were more responsible, there would be far fewer abortions.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#232177 Apr 25, 2014
AverageGuy87 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I imagine most couples prefer to not use condom. And as for abandoning parental responsibility- that's far past whether abortion is ok or not, isn't it?
Like I said, it's impossible to force women into pregnancy tests. But after fertile sex occurs, women have at least two-three months to find out if they're pregnant- and abort before the fetus developes into a baby. It's waiting past that deadline that should be made illegal- and even though the father has responsibility in this aswell, it's up to the woman alone to test to herself for pregnancy and allso to sign up for abortion.
But what about a woman in those areas that do everything they can to interfere with a woman's right to choose? It might take more than a month or two to find a suitable clinic and get an appointment - and that is AFTER the woman realizes that she is pregnant.

Since: Oct 13

Sweden

#232178 Apr 26, 2014
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
It may be that YOU prefer not to use a condom. Please don't speak for others.
If men were more responsible, there would be far fewer abortions.
Nahhh :/ I'd like to think I know people in general. Condom is mostly used to avoid diseases and the like.

Absolutely, I truly agree.

Since: Oct 13

Sweden

#232179 Apr 26, 2014
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
But what about a woman in those areas that do everything they can to interfere with a woman's right to choose? It might take more than a month or two to find a suitable clinic and get an appointment - and that is AFTER the woman realizes that she is pregnant.
You lead my thoughts to OP, aka Precious. Bumped into her lately have you?

Well it shouldn't have to come to that obviously- but if a woman realizes she is pregnant, which could take really long depending on her usual weight/size- then it's a tragedy if she proceeds with the abortion. But she can't be blamed for it. Until proper pregnancy control is enforced, no one can be held accountable for a trial. Sometimes, shit simply happens

Shouldn't have to come to it, and there should be much better education on the matter. Neither pregnancy or abortion is fun to go through. But an unwanted child growing up with two recentful parents is even worse I imagine. It's up to the mother to decide the survival of her fetus/infant. But women should be educated on the means to prevent pregnancy, so that abortion someday, will never be needed anymore.

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