There is Everything Wrong with Abortion
LightForce

Warren, MI

#230030 May 7, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
THERE IS >>>NO<<< COMMANDMENT TO NOT KILL. In fact, killing is encouraged in the Bible.
There is a commandment to not >>MURDER<<, which is entirely different.
<quoted text>
Irrelevant to the the topic.
<quoted text>
Quite lying. You have NOTHING to support that claim. Did the God of the Bible know the prophet Jeremiah while Jerry was still in the womb? Well, if we accept the concept that this God was able to predict events that would not happen for centuries, then I think that it is safe to say that He would have known that Jerry was actually going to live to reach live birth, and not just end up as a bloody wad of goo, slowly drying to dust in the desert heat. One might even be tempted to say that it was preordained that Jerry was going to live...
Beyond that, you need to learn the difference between a translation and the actual "Word of God". Exodus 21:22 uses the Hebrew term that indicates pregnancy, it does NOT say "child", it says <hareh>, not <valad>.
<quoted text>
Please TRY to learn something before you post anymore. There were NO Pharisees in the days of Moses. They did not exist until around 165 BCE, rather late in the Second Temple Period. For some actual information on the Pharisees (and not just anti-Jewish propaganda) see here:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/455...
die.
(EDITED FOR SPACE)

No.

Exodus 21:22-24 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Meaning:

When men strive together and they hurt unintentionally a woman with child, and her children come forth but no mischief happens - that is, the woman and the children do not die--the one who hurts her shall surely be punished by a fine. But if any mischief happens, that is, if the woman dies or the children, then you shall give life for life.

Also,

Lev. 24:17 “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. Another version says:'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. Notice that this verse actually specifies “human life” or “human being”. We also know from the verse in Exodus 21:12 that this means intentional killing as we discussed earlier.

In addition:

Now, the word children derives from the Hebrew yeled, which is a “child.” In this instance the word is plural,“children,” which likely is calculated to cover multiple births, or perhaps both sexes.“Hareh” refers to the WOMAN who is with child, or pregnant, which actually supports my own view. There is also no linguistic justification for translating verse 22 to refer to a miscarriage. The phrase “if any mischief follow” in Exodus 21:23, does not make any distinction between the mother and her unborn child. It seems to be speaking about a premature birth rather than a miscarriage here with no harm to either the mother or child.

Conclusion:

Although this and other scripture certainly highlights the importance placed on the life of a preborn child, I still don’t feel the need to use it to support my argument.

Notes:

Interestingly, a parallel Assyrian law dated between 1450 B.C. and 1250 B.C. prescribed death by torture in cases of induced abortion. The text reads:‘If a woman by her own deed has cast [aborted] that which is within her womb, and a charge has been brought and proved against her, they shall impale her and not bury her. If she dies from casting that which is in her womb, they shall impale her and not bury her.

Ouch! That would hurt.

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#230031 May 7, 2013
(EDITED FOR RELEVANCE TO ACTUAL AGENDA)
LightForce wrote:
Notes:
Interestingly, a parallel Assyrian law dated between 1450 B.C. and 1250 B.C. prescribed death by torture in cases of induced abortion. The text reads:‘If a woman by her own deed has cast [aborted] that which is within her womb, and a charge has been brought and proved against her, they shall impale her and not bury her. If she dies from casting that which is in her womb, they shall impale her and not bury her.
Ouch! That would hurt.
I'm quite sure if you had your way, this 'deterrent' to abortion would also be law in the United States, and you would rub your hands in glee every time a woman was subjected to it.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#230032 May 7, 2013
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(EDITED FOR SPACE)
No.
Exodus 21:22-24 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Meaning:
When men strive together and they hurt unintentionally a woman with child, and her children come forth but no mischief happens - that is, the woman and the children do not die--the one who hurts her shall surely be punished by a fine. But if any mischief happens, that is, if the woman dies or the children, then you shall give life for life.
No matter how hard you pretend, that is NOT the meaning of that verse. PREEMIES DO NO SURVIVE WITHOUT MODERN MEDICAL INTERVENTION. Certainly not preemies that were abruptly aborted as a result of men fighting. Quite lying about this.
LightForce wrote:
Also,
Lev. 24:17 “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. Another version says:'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. Notice that this verse actually specifies “human life” or “human being”. We also know from the verse in Exodus 21:12 that this means intentional killing as we discussed earlier.
The actual word used was < 'adam > man or mankind.
LightForce wrote:
In addition:
Now, the word children derives from the Hebrew yeled,
No, child comes from the Germanic < cild >.
LightForce wrote:
which is a “child.”
Actually, < yalad > has more to do with giving birth, bringing forth...
LightForce wrote:
In this instance the word is plural,“children,” which likely is calculated to cover multiple births, or perhaps both sexes.“Hareh” refers to the WOMAN who is with child, or pregnant, which actually supports my own view. There is also no linguistic justification for translating verse 22 to refer to a miscarriage. The phrase “if any mischief follow” in Exodus 21:23, does not make any distinction between the mother and her unborn child. It seems to be speaking about a premature birth rather than a miscarriage here with no harm to either the mother or child.
Conclusion:
Although this and other scripture certainly highlights the importance placed on the life of a preborn child, I still don’t feel the need to use it to support my argument.
< 'ishshah > = woman
< hareh > = pregnant
< yeled > = child, offspring
< yatsa' > = go out

You could at least TRY to get the words correct...

Not that it actually helps you. It is ridiculous to try and claim that a preemie had any chance at all abck then. The verse is acknowledging the fact that pregnancy is uncertain, and that men should be more careful around a pregnant woman, but accidents will happen. Miscarriages happen all the time, before modern medical care they would have been far more common than they are today, and even today, many women have to put up with multiple miscarriages even when they WANT to carry to term.
LightForce wrote:
Notes:
Interestingly, a parallel Assyrian law dated between 1450 B.C. and 1250 B.C. prescribed death by torture in cases of induced abortion. The text reads:‘If a woman by her own deed has cast [aborted] that which is within her womb, and a charge has been brought and proved against her, they shall impale her and not bury her. If she dies from casting that which is in her womb, they shall impale her and not bury her.
Ouch! That would hurt.
And the part that you left out was that that penalty applied IF the woman sought the abortion AGAINST her husband's wishes. It was NOT a law against abortions, it was a law about property management.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#230033 May 7, 2013
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
(EDITED FOR RELEVANCE TO ACTUAL AGENDA)
<quoted text>
I'm quite sure if you had your way, this 'deterrent' to abortion would also be law in the United States, and you would rub your hands in glee every time a woman was subjected to it.
The translation that I read said "crucify", not impale...

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#230034 May 7, 2013
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Although your opinion makes about as much logic as rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic does and is completely wrong on so many levels, it’s still relatively refreshing to see something other than just personal attacks on another individual.
Your views are actually “pro-parent’s-right-to-kill-th eir-child”– let’s be honest here. And selfish motives for killing another individual are not a valid argument in a “just” society. The fact that someone may spoil your vacation plans is not good enough reason to kill them either.
However this Nazi idealism got to be this far ingrained into our society’s customs, it is important that we do everything now that we can to try and reverse it.
I challenge you to find anyone who had an abortion because a baby might spoil their vacation plans. That's right up there with the poster who insisted that girls had abortions so that they can fit into their prom dresses.

If you hear of anyone killing children, notify the police. Dial 911. That is unacceptable.

You, typically, don't think beyond birth. You and your ilk have blinders on that shut out everything past labor and delivery.

Explain to me how a 15 year old is supposed to finish school, take care of an infant, plus get a further education while caring for a toddler. Without mommy and daddy paying the bills. That is the reality for far too many. How does she handle her minimum wage job when the baby has an ear infection and she has no sick days and no insurance?

How does she cope when the kid gets chicken pox and she has no sick days and no family to help?

You close your eyes and "fix" it all by saying "there are services to help."

I've been there. I'm here to tell you, the stock answer is "we've exhausted our resources this month."

Most of them give up and resort to illegal means to get money. OR they dump their kids into foster care. Those are the kids who leave their kids in the car while they go drinking with their friends. Or prostituting themselves for drugs.

You close your eyes and live in your castle on the hill. You continue to refuse to acknowledge reality. Those gang-bangers who graffiti everything? Where do your think their parents are? How OLD do you think their parents are?

Next time you hear of teenagers robbing a home to get pain pills, ask yourself how old their parents were. Same with a meth lab. Or children abandoned somewhere.

Pull your head out of your ass and look at the REAL WORLD. Not the Kardashians.

Kids having kids leads to more kids having even younger kids. and it begets a cycle of drugs, irresponsibility, welfare, and more kids. I see it daily. I look around me and see the results.

Just because someone can bear a child does not mean she's meant to be a parent. Just because she has a vagina does not mean she's ready to be a parent.

Care about the BORN child for a while. Care about whether it will be loved, fed, nurtured, and cared for.

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#230035 May 8, 2013
phleb 1 wrote:
Many pro-lifers attempt to intimidate? Lmao! Keep telling yourself that mamsan. Your filthy conscience is getting the best of you.
You got that right.

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#230036 May 8, 2013
Lev. 24:17 “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death."

If only The God had listened to His God.

He would still be here to guide us.

Oh well, lucky we have that free will thing.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#230037 May 8, 2013
Life is Precious wrote:
<quoted text>You got that right.
How's your conscience Liar? Still waiting for those posts in which I lied or stated that all men are horrible.

Oh yes...that's right! I didn't do either!

Don't forget to ask jeeeebus for forgiveness for your lies this morning. Then you can come back tomorrow morning and lie all over again.

Isn't that how it works?

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#230038 May 8, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
The translation that I read said "crucify", not impale...
Either way, that one would LOVE to see any and every woman, who avails herself of an abortion, tortured and killed.

'Lightforce' is light on intelligence....but heavy on the 'force' bit.
LightForce

Warren, MI

#230039 May 8, 2013
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
I challenge you to find anyone who had an abortion because a baby might spoil their vacation plans. That's right up there with the poster who insisted that girls had abortions so that they can fit into their prom dresses.
If you hear of anyone killing children, notify the police. Dial 911. That is unacceptable.
You, typically, don't think beyond birth. You and your ilk have blinders on that shut out everything past labor and delivery.
Explain to me how a 15 year old is supposed to finish school, take care of an infant, plus get a further education while caring for a toddler. Without mommy and daddy paying the bills. That is the reality for far too many. How does she handle her minimum wage job when the baby has an ear infection and she has no sick days and no insurance?
How does she cope when the kid gets chicken pox and she has no sick days and no family to help?
You close your eyes and "fix" it all by saying "there are services to help."
I've been there. I'm here to tell you, the stock answer is "we've exhausted our resources this month."
Most of them give up and resort to illegal means to get money. OR they dump their kids into foster care. Those are the kids who leave their kids in the car while they go drinking with their friends. Or prostituting themselves for drugs.
You close your eyes and live in your castle on the hill. You continue to refuse to acknowledge reality. Those gang-bangers who graffiti everything? Where do your think their parents are? How OLD do you think their parents are?
Next time you hear of teenagers robbing a home to get pain pills, ask yourself how old their parents were. Same with a meth lab. Or children abandoned somewhere.
Pull your head out of your ass and look at the REAL WORLD. Not the Kardashians.
Kids having kids leads to more kids having even younger kids. and it begets a cycle of drugs, irresponsibility, welfare, and more kids. I see it daily. I look around me and see the results.
Just because someone can bear a child does not mean she's meant to be a parent. Just because she has a vagina does not mean she's ready to be a parent.
Care about the BORN child for a while. Care about whether it will be loved, fed, nurtured, and cared for.
Wouldn’t it make life so much easier if we just kill granny too? Your stock answer is to just kill them. How many have to be killed in order to satisfy your lust for blood? Killing a pre, or postnatal child for the reasons that you state should not even be discussed in a just society. You and I both know that what is being done is the actual killing of a prenatal child, so you can stop the charades now. What you are really talking about is the population control/killing of the poor or undesirables in society, instead of discussing changing society. That is very disturbing to me.
LightForce

Warren, MI

#230040 May 8, 2013
NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>I'll tell you when I'm against abortion. When the pregnant woman DOES NOT WANT ONE. I'm completely against a woman being forced to abort, just as I'm against one being forced to gestate an unwanted pregnancy.
Not your body, none of your business.
Wads of goo have no rights, no thoughts, no guarantee they'll develop whether they're wanted or not. The living, breathing woman who is pregnant is the one who has the decision as to whether or not SHE is willing to risk her life and health ATTEMPTING to bring a conception to term.
And you? You aren't even in the game are you? As I recall, you're male, meaning it will never EVER be your decision or any of your business.
Are you saying that a parent should have the right to kill her child at any point during her pregnancy? Are you saying that the child is a “wad of goo” during the entire pregnancy all the way up to birth. Can you answer that with a simple yes or know, or are you going to continue to try to avoid the issue. Your comments keep contradicting themselves because your argument is in itself contradictory and therefore makes no sense. I already know that in order to answer this without looking too silly, you can’t answer with a yes or no. You will have to leave out the “wad of goo” part, or the “It’s not your body” part so that the contradiction will not be so obvious. Either way, your views have already been discredited as just being selfish.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#230041 May 8, 2013
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Wouldn’t it make life so much easier if we just kill granny too? Your stock answer is to just kill them. How many have to be killed in order to satisfy your lust for blood? Killing a pre, or postnatal child for the reasons that you state should not even be discussed in a just society. You and I both know that what is being done is the actual killing of a prenatal child, so you can stop the charades now. What you are really talking about is the population control/killing of the poor or undesirables in society, instead of discussing changing society. That is very disturbing to me.
What I said has no resemblance whatsoever to what you've stated above.

Drama much?

And what you AREN'T addressing is that child AFTER birth.

Why not?

Or are you only posting on here for your daily drama fix and you really don't give a good goddamn.

“Still not convinced”

Since: Jan 12

Sacavém, Portugal

#230042 May 8, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
But we are talking about abortion, no babies involved.
its a baby, not fully formed, but a baby nonetheless

“Still not convinced”

Since: Jan 12

Sacavém, Portugal

#230043 May 8, 2013
NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>Just how does an insensate wad of goo suffer?
Not your pregnancy, none of your business.
There is NEVER a guarantee that a WANTED pregnancy will make it through the first trimester, much less all the way to term. It's none of your business if a woman decides not to risk her life and health attempting to gestate to term.
A woman has a right to do with her body what she wishes...i don't care. but when she does what she wants to do, and this results in a pregnancy, she had done what she wanted to do with her body. However when she goes for an abortion, she is doing something to someone else's body.

your 'wad of goo' statement is cold...ice cold. What has the unborn done to deserve death? NOTHING! It is not at fault for any thing including it's on existence, and yet it is expected to pay with it's life, no trial, no jury, and no say in what happens to them.
Mom and dad dont pay with their lives, why should the innocent unborn?

What dont ppl know in this day and age that unprotected sex in most cases results in a pregnancy? So sexually active ppl should be responsible for their own actions. Responsibility comes with freedom. Everyone has to be responsible for their own actions.

Abortions go against the notion of freedom and justice. Freedom to choose for ones self, and justice is when you get what you deserved.
NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>There is NEVER a guarantee that a WANTED pregnancy will make it through the first trimester, much less all the way to term. It's none of your business if a woman decides not to risk her life and health attempting to gestate to term.
and how does that statement justify an abortion. Because nature may cause a woman to lose a pregnancy whether wanted or not, got nothing to do with one's deliberate action. Abortion is a deliberate action to end a life. And most woman aborting in abortion clinics are not the ones in the situation of having to choose between their life and continuing a dangerous pregnancy.
A woman is risking her life by HAVING THE ABORTION.

Yes it may be none of my business, but it does not make it right. Abortion is not contraception!

NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>"Not your pregnancy, none of your business"
You just changed my mind, I think I'll apply that to the rest of my philosophy and change my opinions about every thing else too......

Slavery " not my slave, not my business".
Murder " not my murder, not my business"
Rape " i didn't get raped, not my business"
Theft "I didn't steal/and nothing was stolen from me, not my business"
Abuse "not me being abused, not my business"
Racism "not be, not my business"

As you can see this type of thinking is anarchy, at it's worst. Basically it says: shut up and let me do what I want, I don't care how it affects anyone else, I just want to do what I want to do. It is narcissistic and evil.

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#230044 May 8, 2013
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you saying that a parent should have the right to kill her child at any point during her pregnancy? Are you saying that the child is a “wad of goo” during the entire pregnancy all the way up to birth. Can you answer that with a simple yes or know, or are you going to continue to try to avoid the issue. Your comments keep contradicting themselves because your argument is in itself contradictory and therefore makes no sense. I already know that in order to answer this without looking too silly, you can’t answer with a yes or no. You will have to leave out the “wad of goo” part, or the “It’s not your body” part so that the contradiction will not be so obvious. Either way, your views have already been discredited as just being selfish.
No, that's not what I'm saying, but you're not interested in facts, just in wanting control over the uteri of women worldwide.
Not going to happen lightfarce. Not your body? Not your uterus? None of your business, at all.

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#230045 May 8, 2013
Kullid wrote:
<quoted text>
its a baby, not fully formed, but a baby nonetheless
No, it is not. Are you just uneducated, or are you being intentionally ignorant?

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#230046 May 8, 2013
Kullid wrote:
<quoted text>
A woman has a right to do with her body what she wishes...i don't care. but when she does what she wants to do, and this results in a pregnancy, she had done what she wanted to do with her body. However when she goes for an abortion, she is doing something to someone else's body.(snipping out the rest of the bs)
You really are an ignorant troll.
"When she does what she wants to do, and this results in a pregnancy,". So, all you care about is punishing women who are sexually active. You don't care about babies or children, just punishing women whose birth control failed or who were raped, or who just messed up. I get it.
You don't care about the children who are here and born, or their mothers or fathers or siblings, just about wads of goo and foetuses.
Ignorant hypocritical troll. Go back under your bridge.

“Still not convinced”

Since: Jan 12

Sacavém, Portugal

#230047 May 8, 2013
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>Both are alive, both have human DNA, AND both are capable of killing their hosts.
So yes.
cancer cells do not have human DNA. The very structure of the human-cells mutate; their DNA mutates, and in most cases mutates the DNA to such a respect as to deviate from the genetic deviation of the human. It will never become a human being. Therefore they are not human, they are a Cancer...best you get rid of it.

“Still not convinced”

Since: Jan 12

Sacavém, Portugal

#230048 May 8, 2013
NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>No, it is not. Are you just uneducated, or are you being intentionally ignorant?
wanna get technical then
Zygote -> Embryo -> Fetus -> Baby

“Still not convinced”

Since: Jan 12

Sacavém, Portugal

#230049 May 8, 2013
NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text> You really are an ignorant troll.
"When she does what she wants to do, and this results in a pregnancy,". So, all you care about is punishing women who are sexually active. You don't care about babies or children, just punishing women whose birth control failed or who were raped, or who just messed up. I get it.
You don't care about the children who are here and born, or their mothers or fathers or siblings, just about wads of goo and foetuses.
Ignorant hypocritical troll. Go back under your bridge.
look at you already throwing insults...anyway
i dont care to punish woman or anybody. everybody knows the result of unprotected sex. its not rocket science. you gonna get pregnant lady!
if you dont want to get pregnant, dont do it, or use protection.

you actually dont know what i care about lady. in fact, i would think that its ppl who care about something as little as 'wads of goo', that care about fully formed human beings. you can kill an embryo/foetus/baby freely without the threat of jail. Maybe thats why you advocate abortion...kinda gets you to do some killing without consequences of being jailed.

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