There is Everything Wrong with Abortion

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LightForce

Rockford, MI

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Apr 7, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
I like what you said, but it has one problem. You said the strong protecting the weak, the rich protecting the poor. Except people like Grunt do not want to do these things. Once an unwanted child is born, they do not want to lift a finger to help that child live a normal life. He doesn't want to pay taxes for any sort of subsidized living. It just so happens that a woman accidentally got pregnant and maybe doesn't have the best education or has fallen on hard times and requires subsidized living. Now, I THINK it's responsible to take advantage of the tax dollars we all pay to create a more civilized society and use that money to give that child food, clothing, a bed, and a warm place to live. Yet Grunt and many others like him disagree with that. They think it should be solely up to the mother to just *poof* come up with a new life overnight.
Grunt does OK speaking for himself, but yes, we all need to take responsibility for the welfare of society as a whole, and the fact that some people will always act selfishly and irresponsible just means that the rest of us need to commit even more to that responsibility. How can we ever expect to be treated equally when we treat others unequally? How can we expect others to show respect for us when we ourselves are disrespectful to others? If we don’t commit ourselves to taking responsibility for the welfare of others, then we shouldn’t expect that others will ever take responsibility for the welfare of others either. By our actions, we all take part in shaping the world that we live in. The bottom line is that we need to always try and combat the injustices that we see in our world, but we’ll never accomplish that by committing even more injustices ourselves, or by either setting or building upon an unjust foundation.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

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#228802
Apr 7, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you ever been on a plane? You are aware that they tell people traveling with children to put a mask over their own face first before putting one on the child. Figure that one out.
And by the by, I have never heard of a medical case where a pregnant woman was in critical condition and they took care of the fetus first.
What does this have anything to do with my comment?
LightForce

Rockford, MI

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#228803
Apr 7, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because you *think* something doesn't make it true. Lots of people think a lot of things about PP that aren't true. But people refuse to hear facts because it suits their agenda.
You need to learn how to view the evidence, and to detect the obvious clues. When a spokesperson for PP might consider discussing the possible merits of saving a child’s life, that should at least give you a clue. When she won’t come out and say the obvious when asked, that the life of a child should be saved, that should give you another clue. You can’t come to a conclusion before looking at the evidence, unless your conclusion is preconceived. My conclusion is based solely on the factual evidence here. Then again, in addition to born children in all likelihood being killed, we need to of course consider the rights of the preborn children being killed.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

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#228804
Apr 7, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
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It is what it is in that stage of development. A zygote is not a person.
You lose the argument by using "pro-abortion." No one is pro-abortion. This has been stated to you many times by many posters. As for using morality to guide your thoughts, morality is subjective. You see abortion as selfish, I see it as completely lacking in selfishness. Anyone can choose to spit out a kid and give it a miserable life. But making a decision because you know it's in everyone's best interest despite what you may "want" is actually quite the opposite of selfish. Many women who become pregnant on accident wish they could continue the pregnancy. Many wish their lives were in different places, that they had the money, that they had a better job, that they weren't in an abusive relationship, etc. etc. etc. Many of them wish for a lot of things that would make having a child possible. Wishing for things doesn't make them come true and doesn't stop reality from ruining a lot of people's lives.
We make decisions to end people's lives all the time in our society. Ever hear of passive euthanasia? What do you think pulling the plug means? The problem with what you're saying is that a zygote is not a somebody.
A plant is alive. But that doesn't give it any rights. Things can be alive but that does not mean they are people.
Because it's potential life, there is every reason to abort it if you do not want to produce life. That potential life is also not guaranteed and many women have miscarriages very early on in their pregnancy. I had a miscarriage and by no means did I say I lost a baby. I lost the potential to have a baby if it had come to fruition.
Your lack of any logical reasoning in this entire comment is alarming. What does the stage of a person’s development have to do with whether they are a person or not? Pro-abortion rights views of this are based on a belief in scientific racism that's derived from a primitive understanding of genetics.

This isn’t one of your better comments. I like the guilt thing about how it’s in the best interest of everybody for you to have an abortion. This is what I consider to be very irresponsible on your part and is all too typical of pro-abortionists. You must be a counselor for Planned Parenthood.

The fact is that once you are pregnant, you no longer have to wish that you could have a child, and an abortion will end the life of that child. But then PP wouldn’t want you to know that, would they? Your comments show a very severe lack of ethical discretion.

Pulling the Plug? You are forgetting that the future of a preborn child in all likelihood would be considerably better than that of certain severely ill adults who some would deem to have no “valuable” future at all.

Plant rights? Are you serious? Our ethical behavior towards plants is different than towards people because we eat plants, while there is a reasonable expectation in society that we won’t eat each other.

And again, there is no such thing as a potential life. It’s not possible to kill a “potential” life.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

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#228805
Apr 7, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
If that's true, why aren't you more active in worldwide atrocities that violate the rights of innocent people? Why aren't you worried and actively searching for an end to the combat in Syria? Why aren't you worried about how North Korea is in a police state and its citizens are denied basic freedoms? Do you make this stuff your business to and if so, what do you do about it?
Why are you now obsessed with my personal life? This is a debate about the topic of abortion, and not about my personal life.
LightForce

Rockford, MI

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#228806
Apr 7, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
hahahahahahaha...oh my, we've got a Grunt groupie. Well, let me tell you this: I've known abused women and I've known women who have gotten abortions. And there isn't one damn similarity between them.
Silly, that’s because if you talk to the abused in one case, and to the abuser in another, you will get conflicting stories.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228807
Apr 7, 2013
 

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LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
To your question, this would be an emotional decision based on a current relationship with someone who is presumably loved very much, and with the prospect of losing that person. In that situation where we know for certain that there is no chance at all for her to survive without the abortion, if there is any chance at all for her to live, then I would want her to have the abortion. If she has almost no chance of surviving even with the abortion, it would be a very difficult decision, because you risk losing both of them. Then again, if there is any possible chance that she would survive without having the abortion, you could be killing the child unnecessarily. In this last scenario the decision would be based on the level of your morality, in whether you would risk your life to save another. I myself would, but I wouldn’t be able to make that decision for my wife, so if I was forced to make the decision for her I would have to favor her life. There are a lot of other possible hypothetical scenarios that might occur, and most of the choices that we make would be based on our level of morality, but others would be not much different than tossing a coin to decide. Looking at it objectively, both lives have great inherent value, and the futures of both deserve to be considered. Either way, the survival instinct plays a large role in the decision, and I've never viewed killing in the act of self-defense as immoral if a life is in immenent danger.
I don't think anyone would look at this situation the same as a coin toss.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228808
Apr 7, 2013
 
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Grunt does OK speaking for himself, but yes, we all need to take responsibility for the welfare of society as a whole, and the fact that some people will always act selfishly and irresponsible just means that the rest of us need to commit even more to that responsibility. How can we ever expect to be treated equally when we treat others unequally? How can we expect others to show respect for us when we ourselves are disrespectful to others? If we don’t commit ourselves to taking responsibility for the welfare of others, then we shouldn’t expect that others will ever take responsibility for the welfare of others either. By our actions, we all take part in shaping the world that we live in. The bottom line is that we need to always try and combat the injustices that we see in our world, but we’ll never accomplish that by committing even more injustices ourselves, or by either setting or building upon an unjust foundation.
Grunt doesn't do okay speaking for himself. He just puts out angry dribble. But at least you think it is our responsibility to help care for others.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228809
Apr 7, 2013
 
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
What does this have anything to do with my comment?
I don't remember the exact comment you made because it was a few days ago and it's too late to go back and search for it. You can reiterate it if you'd like.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228810
Apr 7, 2013
 

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LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to learn how to view the evidence, and to detect the obvious clues. When a spokesperson for PP might consider discussing the possible merits of saving a child’s life, that should at least give you a clue. When she won’t come out and say the obvious when asked, that the life of a child should be saved, that should give you another clue. You can’t come to a conclusion before looking at the evidence, unless your conclusion is preconceived. My conclusion is based solely on the factual evidence here. Then again, in addition to born children in all likelihood being killed, we need to of course consider the rights of the preborn children being killed.
Certainly if you have predetermined opinions about something and look hard enough, you're sure to find it regardless. You view her response one way, I view it another. Both of us think we know the reality of the situation.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228811
Apr 7, 2013
 

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LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Your lack of any logical reasoning in this entire comment is alarming. What does the stage of a person’s development have to do with whether they are a person or not? Pro-abortion rights views of this are based on a belief in scientific racism that's derived from a primitive understanding of genetics.
This isn’t one of your better comments. I like the guilt thing about how it’s in the best interest of everybody for you to have an abortion. This is what I consider to be very irresponsible on your part and is all too typical of pro-abortionists. You must be a counselor for Planned Parenthood.
The fact is that once you are pregnant, you no longer have to wish that you could have a child, and an abortion will end the life of that child. But then PP wouldn’t want you to know that, would they? Your comments show a very severe lack of ethical discretion.
Pulling the Plug? You are forgetting that the future of a preborn child in all likelihood would be considerably better than that of certain severely ill adults who some would deem to have no “valuable” future at all.
Plant rights? Are you serious? Our ethical behavior towards plants is different than towards people because we eat plants, while there is a reasonable expectation in society that we won’t eat each other.
And again, there is no such thing as a potential life. It’s not possible to kill a “potential” life.
I don't expect you to see the logic in my argument. You have a narrow view of what is selfish and unselfish.

The stage of development is very important in the case of abortion. It's the very reason why abortion is permissible in our society.

When you use the term "pro-abortion" you are not referring to me or anyone on this thread, so your comment there isn't relevant.

I also wouldn't expect you to understand someone else's dilemma. I don't expect you to understand what it would be like in a certain situation. I don't expect you know what it's like to be faced with that dilemma. And more importantly, I don't care if you don't agree or understand it. It's none of your business what I or any woman decides to do when it comes to her body. That's what you forced birthers don't understand.

A fetus is potential life. There's no certainty that there will be any life for that fetus. And there is no such thing as a preborn child, which you've been told a million times, so there's no need to regurgitate that information. Children are born.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228812
Apr 7, 2013
 

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LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you now obsessed with my personal life? This is a debate about the topic of abortion, and not about my personal life.
Yet here you are meddling in other people's personal lives. Quite the hypocrite. And thank you for proving my point.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#228813
Apr 7, 2013
 

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LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>
Silly, that’s because if you talk to the abused in one case, and to the abuser in another, you will get conflicting stories.
And I repeat, there's no connection between abused women and abortions.
Ella

Rockford, MI

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Apr 8, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
And I repeat, there's no connection between abused women and abortions.
If your knowledge of the abused women and women who have had abortions is limited to your comment, than I would have to agree that your “ignorance is bliss”. For over 23yrs.,I have counseled many women who have been physically, sexually, or ritualistically abused and women who have had abortions, the similarities are startling and staggering. There are many women out there that are physically and emotionally wounded, that go through life hiding behind their masks of deception praying no one will ever see the deep wounds they bear in their souls.
Ocean56

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Message for teen girls who AREN'T pregnant and don't want to be: Many teen girls do not realize that being sexFREE (meaning, free FROM sex) is a winning advantage for them. This is why I think it’s important to give girls in middle and high school a list of the freedoms that being sexFREE provides. The top ten winning advantages of being SF (sexFREE) are:

1. Freedom from unwanted teen pregnancy and teen motherhood.

2. Freedom from incurable STDs like Herpes and fatal STDs like AIDS.

3. Freedom to concentrate on school work and participate in school activities.

4. Freedom to get all homework assignments and studying done and maintain or improve grades.

5. Freedom to participate in learning programs for future jobs and careers.

6. Freedom to graduate with classmates and receive a high school diploma.

7. Freedom to move on to college or vocational school with no restrictions.

8. Freedom to complete a college or vocational program with a degree or certificate.

9. Freedom to look for and accept good jobs with higher salaries.

10. Freedom to get valuable job experience in a chosen career and take courses to learn more job skills.

Getting pregnant and becoming a teen mother will, most likely, take away most of these freedoms, if not all of them. A teen mom has to put the care of her baby first, which means putting her education second. If she has to study for an important test and the baby is sick, the studying may not get done because she has to care for the baby. That may result in her doing poorly on the exam instead of doing well. If a teen mom wants to attend her junior or senior prom but has no one to watch the baby for her, she can’t go to the dance and has to stay home. If a teen mom is going to college, she may fail one or more classes because caring for her baby or child took priority over completing all her course requirements. A teen mom may even have to drop out of high school or college because she could not take care of her baby and do all her school work at the same time.

By contrast, a teen girl who realizes that being sexFREE (again, that means free FROM sex) in middle/high school and college is a clear winning advantage will avoid sex with partners during those years. She will keep her freedom to enjoy all the advantages that the SF choice offers. She is free to concentrate in school, get all her class and homework assignments done, attend any dances she wishes, and take part in school activities like working on the school newspaper or yearbook. Best of all, she will graduate with her class and go on to college or vocational school afterward. If she avoids sexual activity with partners during her college or vocational school years, she will continue to enjoy the advantages indefinitely. She may even decide at some point that she prefers the career world over marriage and children, which is a perfectly valid choice. Not all women wish to be wives and mothers.

It is my firm belief that there is nothing good about getting pregnant as a teenager. Teen pregnancy and teen motherhood can impair or even destroy a girl’s ability to get a good education, which is the foundation for good employment. If a girl cannot get a good job because she doesn’t have a high school diploma, poverty may become inevitable. Sadly, many teen girls don’t know how very hard teen motherhood is until it is too late. They don’t know because no one ever told them, either at home or at school. It is about time that changed.

The “just say no” approach to abstinence-only sex education programs is miserably inadequate because it doesn’t explain WHY teens, especially girls, should say no to sex. The top ten list of winning advantages is a good informational tool to start off with. When a large majority of teens have this information, they may soon begin to realize that enjoying the advantages of the sexFREE choice is a much better option for them than being trapped by the burdens of teen motherhood.
Ocean56

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Apr 8, 2013
 

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Ella wrote:
If your knowledge of the abused women and women who have had abortions is limited to your comment, than I would have to agree that your “ignorance is bliss”. For over 23yrs.,I have counseled many women who have been physically, sexually, or ritualistically abused and women who have had abortions, the similarities are startling and staggering. There are many women out there that are physically and emotionally wounded, that go through life hiding behind their masks of deception praying no one will ever see the deep wounds they bear in their souls.
I wonder; what do you say to the fact that there are many women who DON'T regret having an abortion at all, but were just relieved the option was available to them? Here are stories from women who don't regret having an abortion. From reading some of their stories, I would say they regret GETTING pregnant in the first place.

http://www.imnotsorry.net
Ocean56

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This might help girls see the difference between the two lifestyles of being a free teenager and being a teen mom BEFORE they make the mistake of having sex and possibly ending up pregnant.

If anyone can think of more benefits of lifestyle #1 or negatives of lifestyle #2, please go ahead and add them.

LIFESTYLE #1 - LIFE AS A FREE TEENAGER:
- Keeping up grades, studying, doing homework
- Participating in after-school activities
- Going to school dances and parties
- Relaxing during summer vacation
- Having fun at the junior or senior prom
- Graduating high school and attending after-graduation parties
- Moving on to college or vocational school with no restrictions

LIFSTYLE #2 - LIFE AS A TEEN MOM:
- Missing school, falling behind in classes
- Getting up two or three times at night to feed a baby
- Endless diaper changes, including stinky ones
- Losing friends who don't want to be around crying babies
- Staying home with a crying baby while friends are out having fun
- Missing high school graduation, or even having to drop out of school
- Losing out on the dream job/career originally planned


As a teenager who is happily NOT pregnant, which lifestyle do YOU want? Wouldn't you rather have the first lifestyle instead of the second?

You can keep Lifestyle #1 very easily, just by saying NO to any guy who pressures you to have sex. If your boyfriend says he'll break up with you if you won't have sex with him, don't cave in. Break up with HIM instead. You have the power to say NO; don't be afraid to use it.

Keeping your freedom to BE a teenager; there's no better reason to say no.
Sam

Missouri City, TX

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#228818
Apr 8, 2013
 

Since: Apr 12

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#228819
Apr 8, 2013
 

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The Advocate wrote:
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Problem is, you never actually did link to your "source." Duh.
The problem is, you should read the thread again. I did.

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Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, I'm one of the three percent.
I didn't find it at all convenient.
I found it terrifying, painful, and expensive.
And I find you utterly repugnant.
You're a liar. That's what you are.

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