There is Everything Wrong with Abortion

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“Jesus is coming soon”

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#227606
Mar 11, 2013
 
USG wrote:
<quoted text>
What about in self defense?
Trust and faith in God can deliver you those situations without having to kill anyone, there have been testimonies by believers to this effect.

Isaiah 54:17
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

“No Allah: know peace”

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#227607
Mar 11, 2013
 

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A response in three parts...
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(Edited for space)
Three points:
1 – I think you might be confusing “morality” with “opinion” here. Morality is not the same as opinion. How do we know what “morality” is anyway? Morality is what is considered to be basic, acceptable conduct between one another, as opposed to a subjective world based on the opinions of the most rich and powerful. We can understand certain moral imperatives by studying history, and observing the patterns of nature, and by using our power of reasoning. One of the foundations of what is moral, or right is to understand that we all share the same fate, and must be subject to the same laws regardless of race, gender, disability, age, stage of development, state of dependency, place of residence or amount of property. We can't forget that inevitably we are all vulnerable, and that the strong must protect the weak.
...
That IS a good definition of morality, and one that I am fine with. But it has nothing to do with morality through the ages. Once upon a time, it was considered highly "moral" to murder those who held a different faith - even if that faith was just a slightly different sect of xianity. Trivial differences in dogma were considered enough to burn people at the stake, and the majority view was that it was highly moral to do this.

Now, we can look back as say that we are SOOOO much more moral that this, but what will future generations say about us?

(See this for a discussion of stages of morality development:
http://www83.homepage.villanova.edu/richard.j... )

Is burning people at the stake properly moral? Only under stage 1, and only if the concept of collective Divine punishment for tolerating heretics is true.

But what about other ancient practices? Go far enough back, and an infant was not given a name for a week, for the simple reason that it was not considered to be a living person before that. The risk of infant death was simply too high to do otherwise. IS that defensible as a modern practice? I would say that our medical care is good enough that it is unlikely that an infant will die unless there were discernible problems right from the start.

Is it moral to kill prisoners of war out of hand? Not currently, but go back, and the logistics problems become insurmountable to keep them alive - a quick, clean death becomes the only moral option.

And what if the Aztecs were right? What if the only thing that keeps the Sun rising was the pulling out of the still beating hearts of the captives taken, and the only thing that is keeping us alive is that they killed more in a day than they needed for a year? What happens to us when that back log of sacrifices runs out? Is it more moral to give up one person per day to a bloody sacrifice than it would be to condemn every living thing on Earth to a cold death?

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

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#227608
Mar 11, 2013
 

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A response in three parts
Part 2
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(Edited for space)
Three points:
...
2 - Killing someone in self defensive is an act that protects one's own inherent rights(self-interest), or the inherent rights of others(moral interest), and must be equally applied to all in order to be just. I never brought up anything in the Bible, but it is hypocritical that twice in the same comment you both condone, and condemn the same thing, which is 1: killing innocent children, and 2: the justification used for killing in the Bible.
...
I never condone the killing of children, innocent or otherwise. Never, under any circumstances. Do try to remember that this discussion is not about killing children, we are here to discuss abortion.

You might what to go back and reread my post, I was pointing out that the Bible is not always a good guide for determining a moral course of action.

Can we agree that self defense is always permitted? Of course, we need to limit it to legitimate self defense and not some whack-job's delusions about the police and black helicopters, and secret U.N. mind control rays...

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

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#227609
Mar 11, 2013
 

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Part 3
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(Edited for space)
Three points:
...
3 – The age or condition at which a person has a higher survival rate should make no difference on their value as a person, or the inherent rights that they possess. There has to be some point at which a human becomes a “person”. The most obvious point of that happening used to be thought of as being at birth. Now with modern ultrasound equipment we can actually see the development of a child in the womb. Some people now say that the point of personhood should be when the heart starts beating at 18 days, or when the brain can be detected at 8 weeks. Some would say that it is when all of the structures necessary to feel pain are functioning at 9 weeks, or when it is possible for a baby to live outside of the womb at 24 weeks . Some say that it is only after the child leaves the mother's womb, and still others think that it is even after that – up to 3 years after birth. But the most distinct point other than at birth is at the point of conception. At this point the one celled human being is created and becomes completely distinct from either of it's parents, and even has it's entire genetic code established to make it who it will be as an adult. No other time in the child's development is so dramatic a point of demarcation as this. Since there is no other outstanding difference in the child at birth other than that instead of being inside of the mother, it is now outside of the mother and visible to us, it has to be the moment of conception that marks the beginning of a person.
Just to respond to your last paragraph, think about the fact that 100% of born people die.
Very silly. Of COURSE the chance of survival affects moral decisions. Given tow persons and the chance to safe only one, the most moral choice is to save the one with the best chance of survival. Emotion may cloud that judgment...

I have made no attempt to disguise that I approach this from a religious perspective. I believe that all humans have a soul, separate from the physical body. As such, it merely becomes a question of determining WHEN the soul enters the body, and it is ludicrous to think that it happens any time before birth. As such, prior to birth, it is not a person, it is a wad of goo and a potential person.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#227610
Mar 11, 2013
 

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LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>The ignorance and the Blindness all belong to you, not me, the bible is clear on the subject as it says the same thing in two different terms,'thou shalt do no murder' and 'thou shalt not kill', there are no mistranslations here.
There are. It's been proven. You're wrong. Just because you don't think you are, doesn't mean you aren't. There are numerous mistranslations in the bible you read. This is a FACT.
hope

Hannibal, MO

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#227611
Mar 11, 2013
 

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mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
You call me immoral because I chose abortion once and life twice. I gave birth twice. I chose to have those children live.
Let's investigate this:
You have chosen to tell the truth, presumably, a few times. You have chosen to lie as well.
Does that make you nothing BUT a liar?
You chose to live a few times, and tried to kill yourself a few times.
Does that make you a killer? Immoral? Does that make you a bad mother because you tried to deprive your child of a mother when he was still young? Does it make you a bad grandmother because you tried to deprive your grandchildren of a grandmother?
Wear that hat yourself. See how you like it.
YAWN.......the human animal never ceases to amaze......it saves babies only to bring them into a world not fit for life........

“Jesus is coming soon”

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#227612
Mar 11, 2013
 
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
There are. It's been proven. You're wrong. Just because you don't think you are, doesn't mean you aren't. There are numerous mistranslations in the bible you read. This is a FACT.
Prove it.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

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#227613
Mar 11, 2013
 

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LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>Prove it.
I have in a previous post. You ignored it.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

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#227614
Mar 11, 2013
 

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"Ratsah" means murder. This is the word that appears in the Old Testament. This not anywhere near the word for "kill" which begins with an "h." I know people who speak Hebrew. I also know how to use the computer to look up the Hebrew text and see the word for myself.

You're incorrect. The Old Testament says, "Thou shalt not murder."

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

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#227615
Mar 11, 2013
 

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And if you don't trust the Hebrew translation, go ahead and check out the Latin and Greek translations as well. They also translate with a word that refers to "murder."

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

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#227616
Mar 12, 2013
 

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LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>Wrong again "often wrong Liam", the christian message came from the father himself through his son Jesus Christ who was the Word in human flesh and blood, which is why many call it "christianity" which is a word not mentioned in the bible, same God who gave you the old despensation laws is the same Go0d in human form that gave you the NT ordinances.
So, in other words, you are incredibly proud of your ignorance and will fight tooth and nail to preserve that ignorance...

Do try to pay attention here, so I don't have to keep saying the obvious over and over. For xianity to be true, then the New Testament must be true. For the New Testament to be true, the prophecies of the Old Testament must be true. For the prophecies of the Old Testament to be true, then the Torah must be true. For the Torah to be true, then the author must have been inspired by the God of the Bible.(The alternative is that the Torah was just made up by one or several guys and contains no truth, end of discussion.)

So, from here, if ANY of the Bible is inspired from a God, then it would HAVE to be the Torah, because it is the Torah on which all else hangs. If the Torah is false, then the whole thing is false. However, if the Torah is true, then xianity MUST be false, because xianity CONTRADICTS the teaching of the Torah.

By the way, the translation of the word "Torah" into English is "Law".

If the Torah is inspired, then the God of the Bible REPEATEDLY said that all of His Laws are to be followed FOR EVER. Period. You CANNOT dispute this, it is repeated over and over and over. Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, the books of Kings and Chronicles, and most of the prophets ALL repeat the point that the Laws are to be followed FOR EVER.

In Deuteronomy, the children of Israel are warned that they MUST follow the Laws diligently FOR EVER, and if they did, they would be blessed, if they failed, they would be cursed. The rest of the Bible is filled with that warning being carried out. EVERY time they failed to fulfill the Torah, they were cursed with invasion, captivity, plagues, etc, etc, etc.

In a couple of points in the gospels, Jesus is quoted as having said that the Laws MUST be followed, that the Law would never be removed, that to be good, a person had to obey the Laws. Jesus NEVER said to drop the Law.

After he died, his disciples continued to follow the Laws. Think about that: the people who best KNEW what he taught continued to follow the Laws of Moses and taught that everyone that would follow them had to do the same.

Then Paul has his hallucination, and changes all that completely. PAUL had the idea that it was somehow okay to ignore what CENTURIES of messages from the God of the Bible had said: to follow the Laws of Moses FOR EVER.

Now, go back and reread this entire post.

Again.

Do you understand it yet? Or do you need to read it again? Or worse, do I have to start pulling out dozens of Bible verses to show you just how wrong you are?

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

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#227617
Mar 12, 2013
 

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LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>The ignorance and the Blindness all belong to you, not me, the bible is clear on the subject as it says the same thing in two different terms,'thou shalt do no murder' and 'thou shalt not kill', there are no mistranslations here.
In Hebrew it is quite clear, there is NO commandment to not "kill", only a Commandment to not "murder". If you don't know Hebrew, do not argue with those who do when it comes to the meaning of a word IN Hebrew...

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Hightstown, NJ

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#227618
Mar 12, 2013
 

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Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
In Hebrew it is quite clear, there is NO commandment to not "kill", only a Commandment to not "murder". If you don't know Hebrew, do not argue with those who do when it comes to the meaning of a word IN Hebrew...
Isn't it amazing when someone is so proud of his/her ignorance? This is a commonly known fact that many Christians choose to ignore and refuse to look into for themselves because, like every other inconsistency in the bible, it would shed doubt on their beliefs.

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#227619
Mar 12, 2013
 

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mamma-san wrote:
This is heartbreaking for all concerned:
A woman who was raped gave the resultant infant up for adoption and tried to put it all behind her. As an adult, the daughter has tried to track her biological mother down.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/adoptee-s...
Yes, it's heartbreaking, but her statement of "This was before rape was invented." is complete crap and she lost all my sympathy with that along her complete refusal to tell her daughter about what happened.
If she'd just had one private meeting with the woman, and said "Don't contact me again, it's all too painful for me" and the adoptee had continued trying to contact and make a relationship, THEN I could sympathize. THEN the adoptee would be going too far.
Before rape was invented??? She's a selfish and crappy mother.
I say this as a survivor of forcible rapes, a mother, and an adoptee.

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#227620
Mar 12, 2013
 

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Oh, I read more of the story. It was her boyfriend who got her pregnant, the rape was STATUTORY, not a forcible stranger rape. They'd been dating for over two years.
The father's family wanted to keep the baby, but had no rights to stop the adoption, although they tried.
Nope, she's getting no sympathy from me over ONE attempt at contact that she rejected, and not pursued by the adoptee further.
The headline and all makes it seem as if she was harassed by the daughter. She wasn't.
USG

Saint Louis, MO

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#227621
Mar 12, 2013
 

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Thou shall not murder.

It's pretty clear what that means. Since we kill things all the time, whether it's plants or animals or people if we determine that as punishment, it couldn't be thou shall not kill.

There is no mention of abortion in the Bible.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

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#227622
Mar 12, 2013
 

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mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you refer to your 17 year old as a baby? A Toddler? Or as a Senior Citizen?
That's why we don't refer to embryos or fetuses as a "baby."
Because that's not what they are.
When they're born, they're babies or infants.
My Mom continued to call be her "baby" all her life, even after I had a kid of my own.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

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#227623
Mar 12, 2013
 

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LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>Christ himself made paul a witness unto him upon his conversion, he was the Lord's special envoy to the gentile church locations in and around Asia minor at that time,
For the sake of our justice system, I pray that you NEVER sit on a jury...

The ONLY "evidence" that we have of that is Paul's own word, and the word of one of his traveling companions. Can you say "biased source"? Almost... let's try again: "bi- assed source". There you go. There is no corroborating evidence that any of it happened anywhere outside Paul's own mind.
LAWEST100 wrote:
you deny the Lord Jesus Christ and try to establish your "salvation" in old despensation laws that were ended with the arrival of Christ,
So, the God of the Bible said that the Laws were to be observed FOR EVER, but you want to call Him a liar. Good luck with that.
LAWEST100 wrote:
Christ himself began to preach this gospel and anything that Paul and the other written unto the churches are an extension of the Lord's Word as Christ is the Word in human form.........
Jesus preached Judaism. He insisted that all of the Laws needed to be followed for all time. Paul contradicts what the rest of the Bible said on the subject.
LAWEST100 wrote:
Matthew 10:32-33
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Peter was talking about Paul.
LAWEST100 wrote:
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
At present this doesn't appear to be you.
Nope. I will never call on a false god for salvation. Sort of like calling upon a cement life ring to save you from drowning.
LAWEST100 wrote:
Jeremiah 17:10 - I the LORD search the heart,[I] try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways,[and] according to the fruit of his doings.
If you want to continue to pretend to worship the God of the Bible, you had better pay attention to this verse...

I am happy with the fruit of the trees that I have planted.
LAWEST100 wrote:
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man [be] in Christ,[he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gross conceptual errors.
LAWEST100 wrote:
2 Peter 1:21 - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Continue to deny the Lord Jesus, you will wake up in the judgement just be be cast into hellfire.
Hell is another myth with no Biblical justificationi.

“No Allah: know peace”

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#227624
Mar 12, 2013
 

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LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>Trust and faith in God can deliver you those situations without having to kill anyone, there have been testimonies by believers to this effect.
Isaiah 54:17
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
Silly child, you should not try to quote out of context, it makes you look even more foolish when you are shown to be wrong...

Isaiah 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

This is a comment about the times AFTER the REAL Messiah comes. Since this did not happen after Jesus, it is obvious that Jesus was not the Messiah of prophecy.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

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#227625
Mar 12, 2013
 

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Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't it amazing when someone is so proud of his/her ignorance? This is a commonly known fact that many Christians choose to ignore and refuse to look into for themselves because, like every other inconsistency in the bible, it would shed doubt on their beliefs.
That is why I like posting the way I do. Using the facts of the Bible to prove false beliefs wrong is SOOOOOO much fun!

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