There is Everything Wrong with Abortion
Doctor REALITY

Little Rock, AR

#227593 Mar 10, 2013
Abortion is OF THE DEVIL.
The Advocate

Mexico, Mexico

#227594 Mar 10, 2013
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
There is not a person on this forum who would deny help or defend the existing life of a human being who can live outside the uterus.
You keep trying to argue for living, breathing human beings.
There is a HUGE difference between a 12 year old child, and a 12 day old embryo.
One is a living, breathing, independent-of-its-mother's uterus being, and the other is 100% dependent upon it's mother's unique uterine conditions.
One is already born. One cannot possibly live outside the mother's uterus for even a nanosecond.
THAT is the difference. Your refusal to take that into consideration only makes your arguments ridiculous and unworthy of consideration.
True. I don't think kids would take kindly to being called "fetus," like "hey y'all! This is my son Richie. Now he may look like your average, sturdy 17 year old farm boy, but to me, he's still my little fetus."

“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#227595 Mar 10, 2013
Doctor REALITY wrote:
Abortion is OF THE DEVIL.
Rape is of the Devil. Keep it in your pants.
Bjorn Fwei

Tulsa, OK

#227596 Mar 10, 2013
The Advocate wrote:
<quoted text>
True. I don't think kids would take kindly to being called "fetus," like "hey y'all! This is my son Richie. Now he may look like your average, sturdy 17 year old farm boy, but to me, he's still my little fetus."
Probably not, come to think of it....

Whatever made you think of it?

You're weird.
The Advocate

Mexico, Mexico

#227597 Mar 10, 2013
Bjorn Fwei wrote:
<quoted text>Probably not, come to think of it....
Whatever made you think of it?
You're weird.
Well, it was a response to a poster who responded to a poster who apparently believes the life of a fetus, zygote, embryo, whatever stage-- is comparable to that of a fully developed child.
Bjorn Fwei

Tulsa, OK

#227598 Mar 10, 2013
The Advocate wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, it was a response to a poster who responded to a poster who apparently believes the life of a fetus, zygote, embryo, whatever stage-- is comparable to that of a fully developed child.
People actually think that way?

Wowser.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#227599 Mar 11, 2013
The Advocate wrote:
<quoted text>
True. I don't think kids would take kindly to being called "fetus," like "hey y'all! This is my son Richie. Now he may look like your average, sturdy 17 year old farm boy, but to me, he's still my little fetus."
Do you refer to your 17 year old as a baby? A Toddler? Or as a Senior Citizen?

That's why we don't refer to embryos or fetuses as a "baby."

Because that's not what they are.

When they're born, they're babies or infants.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#227600 Mar 11, 2013
This is heartbreaking for all concerned:

A woman who was raped gave the resultant infant up for adoption and tried to put it all behind her. As an adult, the daughter has tried to track her biological mother down.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/adoptee-s...

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#227601 Mar 11, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
No, the xian message was invented by Paul and various "church" fathers after him. The God that gave the Laws to Moses also said that those laws were to be followed for ever. A message that had to be repeated often, by most of the prophets...
Wrong again "often wrong Liam", the christian message came from the father himself through his son Jesus Christ who was the Word in human flesh and blood, which is why many call it "christianity" which is a word not mentioned in the bible, same God who gave you the old despensation laws is the same Go0d in human form that gave you the NT ordinances.

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#227602 Mar 11, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
The only place that it says "thou shalt not KILL" is in MIStranslation of the actual verse, which is quite clear in that what is prohibited is MURDER. Killing is not only NOT prohibited, it is DEMANDED in certain circumstances.
The ignorance is all yours...
The ignorance and the Blindness all belong to you, not me, the bible is clear on the subject as it says the same thing in two different terms,'thou shalt do no murder' and 'thou shalt not kill', there are no mistranslations here.

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#227603 Mar 11, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
So Paul is an apostle because Paul SAYS that he is an apostle...
But Paul is a false prophet because the Bible says that he is a false prophet by the only definition that matters: he tells people to ignore the Laws of the Torah.
It really does not get any clearer than this, in over a dozen places in Deuteronomy along, the Bible very specifically states that ALL of the Laws are to be followed FOR EVER, and that anyone who calls for changing even one letter is a false prophet that must be stoned to death. Then Paul comes along and says to drop the Laws, ignore them, they weren't really meant to be for ever, that was just God joking with the Jews...
Is this MY righteousness? No, don't be stupid. I am merely telling you what the Bible really says. If you choose not to believe me, feel free to read Deuteronomy for your self.
Christ himself made paul a witness unto him upon his conversion, he was the Lord's special envoy to the gentile church locations in and around Asia minor at that time, you deny the Lord Jesus Christ and try to establish your "salvation" in old despensation laws that were ended with the arrival of Christ, Christ himself began to preach this gospel and anything that Paul and the other written unto the churches are an extension of the Lord's Word as Christ is the Word in human form.........
Matthew 10:32-33
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
At present this doesn't appear to be you.
Jeremiah 17:10 - I the LORD search the heart,[I] try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways,[and] according to the fruit of his doings.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man [be] in Christ,[he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Peter 1:21 - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Continue to deny the Lord Jesus, you will wake up in the judgement just be be cast into hellfire.
USG

Saint Louis, MO

#227604 Mar 11, 2013
LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>The ignorance and the Blindness all belong to you, not me, the bible is clear on the subject as it says the same thing in two different terms,'thou shalt do no murder' and 'thou shalt not kill', there are no mistranslations here.
What about in self defense?

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#227606 Mar 11, 2013
USG wrote:
<quoted text>
What about in self defense?
Trust and faith in God can deliver you those situations without having to kill anyone, there have been testimonies by believers to this effect.

Isaiah 54:17
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#227607 Mar 11, 2013
A response in three parts...
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(Edited for space)
Three points:
1 – I think you might be confusing “morality” with “opinion” here. Morality is not the same as opinion. How do we know what “morality” is anyway? Morality is what is considered to be basic, acceptable conduct between one another, as opposed to a subjective world based on the opinions of the most rich and powerful. We can understand certain moral imperatives by studying history, and observing the patterns of nature, and by using our power of reasoning. One of the foundations of what is moral, or right is to understand that we all share the same fate, and must be subject to the same laws regardless of race, gender, disability, age, stage of development, state of dependency, place of residence or amount of property. We can't forget that inevitably we are all vulnerable, and that the strong must protect the weak.
...
That IS a good definition of morality, and one that I am fine with. But it has nothing to do with morality through the ages. Once upon a time, it was considered highly "moral" to murder those who held a different faith - even if that faith was just a slightly different sect of xianity. Trivial differences in dogma were considered enough to burn people at the stake, and the majority view was that it was highly moral to do this.

Now, we can look back as say that we are SOOOO much more moral that this, but what will future generations say about us?

(See this for a discussion of stages of morality development:
http://www83.homepage.villanova.edu/richard.j... )

Is burning people at the stake properly moral? Only under stage 1, and only if the concept of collective Divine punishment for tolerating heretics is true.

But what about other ancient practices? Go far enough back, and an infant was not given a name for a week, for the simple reason that it was not considered to be a living person before that. The risk of infant death was simply too high to do otherwise. IS that defensible as a modern practice? I would say that our medical care is good enough that it is unlikely that an infant will die unless there were discernible problems right from the start.

Is it moral to kill prisoners of war out of hand? Not currently, but go back, and the logistics problems become insurmountable to keep them alive - a quick, clean death becomes the only moral option.

And what if the Aztecs were right? What if the only thing that keeps the Sun rising was the pulling out of the still beating hearts of the captives taken, and the only thing that is keeping us alive is that they killed more in a day than they needed for a year? What happens to us when that back log of sacrifices runs out? Is it more moral to give up one person per day to a bloody sacrifice than it would be to condemn every living thing on Earth to a cold death?

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#227608 Mar 11, 2013
A response in three parts
Part 2
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(Edited for space)
Three points:
...
2 - Killing someone in self defensive is an act that protects one's own inherent rights(self-interest), or the inherent rights of others(moral interest), and must be equally applied to all in order to be just. I never brought up anything in the Bible, but it is hypocritical that twice in the same comment you both condone, and condemn the same thing, which is 1: killing innocent children, and 2: the justification used for killing in the Bible.
...
I never condone the killing of children, innocent or otherwise. Never, under any circumstances. Do try to remember that this discussion is not about killing children, we are here to discuss abortion.

You might what to go back and reread my post, I was pointing out that the Bible is not always a good guide for determining a moral course of action.

Can we agree that self defense is always permitted? Of course, we need to limit it to legitimate self defense and not some whack-job's delusions about the police and black helicopters, and secret U.N. mind control rays...

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#227609 Mar 11, 2013
Part 3
LightForce wrote:
<quoted text>(Edited for space)
Three points:
...
3 – The age or condition at which a person has a higher survival rate should make no difference on their value as a person, or the inherent rights that they possess. There has to be some point at which a human becomes a “person”. The most obvious point of that happening used to be thought of as being at birth. Now with modern ultrasound equipment we can actually see the development of a child in the womb. Some people now say that the point of personhood should be when the heart starts beating at 18 days, or when the brain can be detected at 8 weeks. Some would say that it is when all of the structures necessary to feel pain are functioning at 9 weeks, or when it is possible for a baby to live outside of the womb at 24 weeks . Some say that it is only after the child leaves the mother's womb, and still others think that it is even after that – up to 3 years after birth. But the most distinct point other than at birth is at the point of conception. At this point the one celled human being is created and becomes completely distinct from either of it's parents, and even has it's entire genetic code established to make it who it will be as an adult. No other time in the child's development is so dramatic a point of demarcation as this. Since there is no other outstanding difference in the child at birth other than that instead of being inside of the mother, it is now outside of the mother and visible to us, it has to be the moment of conception that marks the beginning of a person.
Just to respond to your last paragraph, think about the fact that 100% of born people die.
Very silly. Of COURSE the chance of survival affects moral decisions. Given tow persons and the chance to safe only one, the most moral choice is to save the one with the best chance of survival. Emotion may cloud that judgment...

I have made no attempt to disguise that I approach this from a religious perspective. I believe that all humans have a soul, separate from the physical body. As such, it merely becomes a question of determining WHEN the soul enters the body, and it is ludicrous to think that it happens any time before birth. As such, prior to birth, it is not a person, it is a wad of goo and a potential person.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

#227610 Mar 11, 2013
LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>The ignorance and the Blindness all belong to you, not me, the bible is clear on the subject as it says the same thing in two different terms,'thou shalt do no murder' and 'thou shalt not kill', there are no mistranslations here.
There are. It's been proven. You're wrong. Just because you don't think you are, doesn't mean you aren't. There are numerous mistranslations in the bible you read. This is a FACT.
hope

Hannibal, MO

#227611 Mar 11, 2013
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
You call me immoral because I chose abortion once and life twice. I gave birth twice. I chose to have those children live.
Let's investigate this:
You have chosen to tell the truth, presumably, a few times. You have chosen to lie as well.
Does that make you nothing BUT a liar?
You chose to live a few times, and tried to kill yourself a few times.
Does that make you a killer? Immoral? Does that make you a bad mother because you tried to deprive your child of a mother when he was still young? Does it make you a bad grandmother because you tried to deprive your grandchildren of a grandmother?
Wear that hat yourself. See how you like it.
YAWN.......the human animal never ceases to amaze......it saves babies only to bring them into a world not fit for life........

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#227612 Mar 11, 2013
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
There are. It's been proven. You're wrong. Just because you don't think you are, doesn't mean you aren't. There are numerous mistranslations in the bible you read. This is a FACT.
Prove it.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Westerville, OH

#227613 Mar 11, 2013
LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text>Prove it.
I have in a previous post. You ignored it.

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