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Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

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#226700
Dec 7, 2012
 
The poof out of corrie st wrote:
I think that women should be given a financial reward for aborting their babies. if people keep giving birth at this rate the world will be out of room in 50yrs.
if god was really like the dude in the bible then he wouldnt have let us get in this state.
euthanasia and suicide should also be encouraged.
and everyone should be given a lethal injection at say 75 years old.
No thank you. I think folks should leave women the frick alone. In my family we live to 90 with all brains intact. You are recomending that I be executed when I have a good 15 years to go? Teh stoopid it burns.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Waterford, MI

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#226701
Dec 7, 2012
 

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CherryTheTart wrote:
<quoted text>
Courage, my Friend. You have lots of it Stand on it. I am holding you in the Light.
Thank you, Cherry. I need all the strength I can borrow.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

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#226702
Dec 7, 2012
 
CherryTheTart wrote:
<quoted text>
A fetus is human, it is alive, and it may be unwanted. Too bad, so sad.
It's creepy how dismissive you are of other people's lives.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

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#226703
Dec 7, 2012
 
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
Plagiarism is an ugly thing. Please quote your source by pasting in the link.
ALL of this doesn't address the issue I pointed out.
Why should a woman be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will?
Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?
(a) I did paste the link.

(b) Because the alternative is a dead baby.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

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#226704
Dec 7, 2012
 
Part 1 of 2...
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"And the fact is that zygotes are NOT complex at all. The zygote is an undistinguished mass of cells, each identical to the others."
...and rapidly growing and developing. As was noted earlier, the "undistinguished mass of cells" has enough genetic information to design a completely new individual. Your description would be better suited for toenail cells.
No, it is exactly suited to describe a zygote. But, for whatever it is worth, a toenail contains all of the same DNA that a zygote has. Shall we make clipping one's toenails illegal?
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"Soundslike Condic is putting her philosophy ahead of the facts. The fact is that an embryo has no indepentant existance outside the mother, thus it cannot be called a living human being. "
Says who? You're just asserting what you want to be true. It's living, and it's a member of homo sapiens. Living human being.
No, a is frequently the case on this thread, what I post is either medical fact or religious belief, and the two are pretty easy to distinguish. If I am talking about an embryo, I am talking about medical facts. If I am talking about souls, it is religion. And the medical fact is that a fetus at less than 24 weeks is HIGHLY unlikely to survive. At 23 weeks, it requires specialists and extensive, specialized (and EXPENSIVE!) medical equipment to have even the slightest chance of "survival" I say "survival" because at that point, the likelihood is very high that the infant will suffer mental and physical defects.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"Thalidomide is legal. What were you thinking?"
Quoteth Wikipedia:
"It was sold from 1957 until 1961, when it was withdrawn after being found to be a teratogen - a cause of birth defects."
Now it might be legal for people who aren't pregnant, which would include all men, but that's besides the point, isn't it?
"Besides there is a HUGE difference between choosing to abort, and choosing to do something that will condemn a human being to a lifetime of suffereing. You might as well claim that I have the right to come and cut off your arms and legs. "
Choosing to abort is a choice to deny a human being the right to any lifetime at all. Let's say that because of complications arising from the drug, the crippled newborn days days after birth. No "lifetime of suffereing."
No human beings are harmed by an abortion.
Robert A. Heinlein once said that the best way to lie is to tell PART of the truth. You seem to know that already...
Thalidomide (from the same Wikipedia article that YOU partially quoted!): Modern uses of thalidomide (trademarked as Thalomid, according to FDA Orange Book) include treating multiple myeloma in combination with dexamethasone,[4] and erythema nodosum leprosum, with strict controls on its use to prevent birth defects.[5] Research is ongoing in its use to treat other cancers and autoimmune conditions...

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

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#226705
Dec 7, 2012
 
Part 2 of 2...
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"ALL forms of birth control fail.
Not all sex is voluntary.
No one has the right to tell anyone else that they cannot have sex.(Well, except maybe for a parent talking to a minor child...)
Withholding sex is a grounds for divorce."
You're right, I don't have a right to prohibit anyone else from having sex. Which isn't what I'm doing, now is it? I'm saying that sex always carries a risk of pregnancy and that the only way to obviate it utterly is not to have sex. If you want sex, you better make sure you're playing it safe.
Irrelevant. Yes, I'd like to see everyone use proper birth control, I think that it should be mandatory for every kid to have proper classes in the use of BC, starting at puberty. "Abstinence only" sex ed should be illegal for any schools.

But as I said, BC fails. The 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits slavery, including womb slavery, therefore no woman can be forced against her will to stay pregnant against her will.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
" Isufficient information. Depending on just HOW premature it is, there could be zero chance of it surviving, or it could be severely handicapped, both physically and mentally. Pulling the plug could well be the greatest blessing that one could give to that infant."
Let's say that infant is completely out of it for the next nine months, and at the end it will be completely recovered.
Or let's stick with the real world and not try to spin little fantasies. Preemies don't have sudden recoveries. The defects that they suffer at birth will be with them for the rest of their miserable lives.(Unless they are minor enough that medical science is able to correct them.)
Nanack Kenden wrote:
" And if the drunk guy hits you, why should you pay his bills? "
"You" in this sentence would be the unborn baby, so I completely agree.
Wrong. The drunk guy is the unwanted fetus.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

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#226706
Dec 7, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
(a) I did paste the link.
(b) Because the alternative is a dead baby.
No babies are harmed in an abortion.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

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#226707
Dec 7, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
(a) I did paste the link.
(b) Because the alternative is a dead baby.
No. The result is an aborted zygote or embryo. It is not a baby.

Unless an acorn is an oak tree, or the egg you eat for breakfast is a chicken.

All of them, given the right conditions, grow into the other.

Explain to me how a zygote or embryo is more important than a living, breathing, sentient human being?

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

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#226708
Dec 7, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
(a) I did paste the link.
(b) Because the alternative is a dead baby.
I have a link here that states that the contents of the uterus are tissue. Not a "baby"

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topic...

Sometimes, an instrument called a curette is used to remove any remaining tissue that lines the uterus. It may also be used to check that the uterus is empty. When a curette is used, people often call the abortion a D&C — dilation and curettage.

There you go.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

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#226709
Dec 7, 2012
 

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1

"Unless an acorn is an oak tree, or the egg you eat for breakfast is a chicken."

Actually, what you eat in an egg is the yolk, which feeds the embryo. As for the acorn, it only begins to grow when put in the ground and FERTILIZED.

"Sometimes, an instrument called a curette is used to remove any remaining tissue that lines the uterus. It may also be used to check that the uterus is empty. When a curette is used, people often call the abortion a D&C — dilation and curettage. "

Keywords being SOMETIMES and REMAINING, implying that that's not the bulk of the procedure.

"Explain to me how a zygote or embryo is more important than a living, breathing, sentient human being? "

1. An embryo fits the living and human being qualifications there. A fetus fits all four.

2. I didn't say that an embryo is MORE important.

3. What's the big deal about a living, breathing, sentient, human being? Why not rationality, self-preservation, sapience and autonomy?

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

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#226710
Dec 7, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"Unless an acorn is an oak tree, or the egg you eat for breakfast is a chicken."
Actually, what you eat in an egg is the yolk, which feeds the embryo. As for the acorn, it only begins to grow when put in the ground and FERTILIZED.
"Sometimes, an instrument called a curette is used to remove any remaining tissue that lines the uterus. It may also be used to check that the uterus is empty. When a curette is used, people often call the abortion a D&C — dilation and curettage. "
Keywords being SOMETIMES and REMAINING, implying that that's not the bulk of the procedure.
"Explain to me how a zygote or embryo is more important than a living, breathing, sentient human being? "
1. An embryo fits the living and human being qualifications there. A fetus fits all four.
2. I didn't say that an embryo is MORE important.
3. What's the big deal about a living, breathing, sentient, human being? Why not rationality, self-preservation, sapience and autonomy?
You are avoiding the crux of my point.

Given the right conditions, an egg turns into a chicken, an acorn into an oak tree, and a zygote/embryo/fetus into a baby.

Yet, we do not call an egg a chicken, nor do we call an acorn an oak tree. Nor do we treat them as such.

Something that cannot survive outside the very specific conditions of one specific woman's uterus does not trump her right to NOT be pregnant.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

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#226711
Dec 7, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"Unless an acorn is an oak tree, or the egg you eat for breakfast is a chicken."
Actually, what you eat in an egg is the yolk, which feeds the embryo. As for the acorn, it only begins to grow when put in the ground and FERTILIZED.
"Sometimes, an instrument called a curette is used to remove any remaining tissue that lines the uterus. It may also be used to check that the uterus is empty. When a curette is used, people often call the abortion a D&C — dilation and curettage. "
Keywords being SOMETIMES and REMAINING, implying that that's not the bulk of the procedure.
"Explain to me how a zygote or embryo is more important than a living, breathing, sentient human being? "
1. An embryo fits the living and human being qualifications there. A fetus fits all four.
2. I didn't say that an embryo is MORE important.
3. What's the big deal about a living, breathing, sentient, human being? Why not rationality, self-preservation, sapience and autonomy?
You are wrong with this statement:

Actually, what you eat in an egg is the yolk, which feeds the embryo.

No. People eat the white which TURNS into the chicken as well. The white is full of protein.

As for the acorn, it only begins to grow when put in the ground and FERTILIZED.

As I stated, given the right conditions, an egg turns into a chicken (WHEN FERTILIZED), an acorn into an oak tree, and z/e/f/ into a baby.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

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#226712
Dec 7, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
It's creepy how dismissive you are of other people's lives.
What other people? You got a midget in your pocket?
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

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#226713
Dec 7, 2012
 
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
You are wrong with this statement:
Actually, what you eat in an egg is the yolk, which feeds the embryo.
No. People eat the white which TURNS into the chicken as well. The white is full of protein.
As for the acorn, it only begins to grow when put in the ground and FERTILIZED.
As I stated, given the right conditions, an egg turns into a chicken (WHEN FERTILIZED), an acorn into an oak tree, and z/e/f/ into a baby.
"The primary natural purpose of egg white is to protect the yolk and provide additional nutrition for the growth of the embryo (when fertilized)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_white

"and z/e/f/ into a baby"

What you're doing is conflating baby with INFANT. Baby is a nontechnical term that I feel applies to the unborn. Your argument is that with the proper circumstances, an acorn becomes a tree and this is analogous with fetal development. Well, under proper circumstances, a newborn becomes a rational, autonomous, sapient human being. But you wouldn't say that a gurgling newborn dimwit is actually on our level?

What you're doing is begging the question. You're simply asserting that being outside the womb is a necessity for legal recognition.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

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#226714
Dec 8, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"The primary natural purpose of egg white is to protect the yolk and provide additional nutrition for the growth of the embryo (when fertilized)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_white
"and z/e/f/ into a baby"
What you're doing is conflating baby with INFANT. Baby is a nontechnical term that I feel applies to the unborn. Your argument is that with the proper circumstances, an acorn becomes a tree and this is analogous with fetal development. Well, under proper circumstances, a newborn becomes a rational, autonomous, sapient human being. But you wouldn't say that a gurgling newborn dimwit is actually on our level?
What you're doing is begging the question. You're simply asserting that being outside the womb is a necessity for legal recognition.
You are ABSOLUTELY right. In most states, being outside the uterus IS the necessity for legal recognition.

You're catching on.
Ocean56

AOL

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#226715
Dec 8, 2012
 
Mpnf1979 wrote:
Thanks, Ocean. This has been a hard week for me. Going through all this and being totally alone with no one to rely on. It's just been rough. Some people are compassionate and others like that other idiot don't give a sh*t about actual people, they just care about a cause and claim they care about people. She's a disgusting person.
I'm trying to heal while also making plans to get back to my family and friends. I never knew when I moved up here that I would be completely abandoned by someone so close to me. Just goes to show you don't really know what someone's capable of...
It's going to take time, but I will get stronger and hopefully the last 7 years will be a blur.
I can definitely understand how hard it can be to live so far away from one's family at a time when you really need them. Glad to hear you're taking action, in the form of making plans to move back to be closer to your family. That's a good step in the right direction.

I'll keep sending positive thoughts your way.:-)
Ocean56

AOL

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#226716
Dec 8, 2012
 
Nanack Kenden wrote:
It's creepy how dismissive you are of other people's lives.
What's REALLY creepy is how dismissive YOU are of women and our reproductive rights. Not every woman wants to get pregnant, give birth, or be a mother.

Motherhood is still optional, and a woman can cheerfully REJECT that option if she doesn't want the hardships that go along with it. No matter how much you whine about abortion, you still don't get to make sexual and reproductive decisions for anyone but yourself. If it isn't YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision. Simple as that.
Ocean56

AOL

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#226717
Dec 8, 2012
 
Ocean56 wrote:
Some of the hardships mothers of all ages will face once a baby arrives include -- but are not limited to -- the following:
1. Loss of Freedom
2. Loss of Sleep
3. Loss of money
Here are some details of these three losses:

LOSS OF FREEDOM - Having a baby really does change everything, including the freedom that girls and women used to have in abundance. Once the baby arrives, that freedom will be gone, for at least the next five or six years and possibly longer. Teen girls and young women who become moms can forget about going out with friends, whether to the movies, to hang out at their favorite restaurant or coffee shop, or anywhere else for that matter. If they do go out, they’ll have to take the baby with them if their parents refuse to babysit. If the baby is sick or very cranky for any number of reasons, girls will end up staying home instead of going out. Girls who are still in middle or high school will find it much harder to do their homework assignments or study for exams when they have to care for a baby as well. It will be a very long time before girls get any of their former freedom back.

LOSS OF SLEEP - The first thing girls and women have to know about motherhood is that newborn babies do NOT sleep eight hours a night. All mothers, myself included, can honestly say that babies can – and do – wake up during the night as many as two or three times. Each time the baby wakes up, mom has to get up with the baby, feed the baby, change the baby’s diaper (which could be a messy one), and then get the baby back to sleep. When my son was a newborn baby, there were nights where I got NO sleep whatsoever. Luckily for me, I had completed high school and post-high school education long before that, so I didn’t have to get up at 5:00am to go to school after having almost no sleep. Those who are teen moms will not be so lucky.

Loss of Money - Whatever money a girl/woman used to spend on herself will have to be spent on the baby, and that cost is far more than most girls could begin to anticipate. These costs include diapers, food, clothing, baby equipment (car seat, crib, stroller, baby carriers, baby and child toys, etc.) and so much more. Anyone who wants to do the math can begin their research by going to their local grocery store and checking out the baby food and diaper sections. Just make sure you have a notebook and calculator, because you will need to multiply those costs for each item several times per week. That’s just for food and diapers, you haven’t even started on the costs for clothing, baby equipment and toys. That will add a staggering amount to your calculations, and the sum will be far higher than you could imagine. If you plan to put the baby in day care for any amount of time during the week, you will have to add up those costs too. Get the picture now? Having a baby costs a HUGE amount of money, which many girls and young women simply do not have, unless they have wealthy parents.
Ocean56

AOL

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#226718
Dec 8, 2012
 
HARDSHIP #4: LOSS OF EDUCATION AND JOB/CAREER OPPORTUNITIES - As hard as it is to acknowledge, a working mother of any age cannot have the same kind of freedom, flexibility or mobility as a woman without children has. If a girl cannot complete high school due to the demands of motherhood, she will not be able to go to college or vocational school, as both typically require a high school diploma first. That automatically limits her ability to find good employment, and she may well have to settle for a minimum wage job, which pays far less than what is needed to raise a child comfortably. Girls and women who complete high school may find that many jobs require a college degree or vocational school certificate, and without those, she may still not be able to get a job that pays a decent salary. A high school diploma alone is no guarantee of good employment, but all girls need one if they hope to advance to higher levels of education that their chosen job or career requires.

HARDSHIP #5: LOSS OF MOBILITY - Those who don’t have children have a rather naďve idea that parents can just as easily take a baby with them whenever they go out. They are half right. Yes, parents can take a baby out with them, but it is far from easy. Even going to the grocery store with a baby can be a huge hassle. First they have to get the baby dressed, which can be difficult when the little one is happy being home and doesn’t want to be dressed to go out. After getting baby dressed, which can take much longer than mom expected, mom then has to put baby into the car seat, get baby out of the car seat when she arrives at the store, then carry baby around until she can find a cart with an infant carrier. Most grocery stores have very few of those, as I personally discovered long ago. Some may not have any. Going to a restaurant with a baby can also be very stressful, especially if baby suddenly begins crying or screaming for unknown reasons. Mothers who walk into restaurants with screaming or crying babies will find themselves the object of hostile stares, which usually last until they finally have to leave.

HARDSHIP #6: LOSS OF PRIVATE TIME - When a baby arrives, a mom will quickly find that she doesn’t have privacy any more. If she used to read books for hours with few or no interruptions, that will no longer be an option for her. If she is a teen mom who needs quiet time to complete her homework assignments or study for important final exams, that won’t be possible either. A baby will demand her attention many times during the day, so she won’t have private time for doing the things she enjoys or needs to complete.

HARDSHIP #7: DEALING WITH COLIC – For girls/women who are unaware, colic is a long period of crying, screaming and shrieking that can last for many hours a day, and even all night. It can begin when the baby is as young as three weeks old, and it can go on until the baby is five months old. My son had colic for almost two months as an infant. For me, it seemed more like two years. During that time, the crying usually began in the early evening and would last until past midnight. I often walked around the small apartment, carrying him in my arms, for hours trying to comfort him, but nothing I did really worked. He wouldn’t eat, and he most certainly didn’t sleep, and I was a wreck as a result. Being deprived of sleep, with a colicky baby on top of that, can really feel like torture for a mom after a while. I was no exception.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

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#226719
Dec 8, 2012
 
Ocean56 wrote:
<quoted text>
I can definitely understand how hard it can be to live so far away from one's family at a time when you really need them. Glad to hear you're taking action, in the form of making plans to move back to be closer to your family. That's a good step in the right direction.
I'll keep sending positive thoughts your way.:-)
Thank you! Believe it or not, your kind words have put a smile on my face. You never know how much you need people until you REALLY need them.

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