Ocean56

AOL

#226715 Dec 8, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
Thanks, Ocean. This has been a hard week for me. Going through all this and being totally alone with no one to rely on. It's just been rough. Some people are compassionate and others like that other idiot don't give a sh*t about actual people, they just care about a cause and claim they care about people. She's a disgusting person.
I'm trying to heal while also making plans to get back to my family and friends. I never knew when I moved up here that I would be completely abandoned by someone so close to me. Just goes to show you don't really know what someone's capable of...
It's going to take time, but I will get stronger and hopefully the last 7 years will be a blur.
I can definitely understand how hard it can be to live so far away from one's family at a time when you really need them. Glad to hear you're taking action, in the form of making plans to move back to be closer to your family. That's a good step in the right direction.

I'll keep sending positive thoughts your way.:-)
Ocean56

AOL

#226716 Dec 8, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
It's creepy how dismissive you are of other people's lives.
What's REALLY creepy is how dismissive YOU are of women and our reproductive rights. Not every woman wants to get pregnant, give birth, or be a mother.

Motherhood is still optional, and a woman can cheerfully REJECT that option if she doesn't want the hardships that go along with it. No matter how much you whine about abortion, you still don't get to make sexual and reproductive decisions for anyone but yourself. If it isn't YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision. Simple as that.
Ocean56

AOL

#226717 Dec 8, 2012
Ocean56 wrote:
Some of the hardships mothers of all ages will face once a baby arrives include -- but are not limited to -- the following:
1. Loss of Freedom
2. Loss of Sleep
3. Loss of money
Here are some details of these three losses:

LOSS OF FREEDOM - Having a baby really does change everything, including the freedom that girls and women used to have in abundance. Once the baby arrives, that freedom will be gone, for at least the next five or six years and possibly longer. Teen girls and young women who become moms can forget about going out with friends, whether to the movies, to hang out at their favorite restaurant or coffee shop, or anywhere else for that matter. If they do go out, theyíll have to take the baby with them if their parents refuse to babysit. If the baby is sick or very cranky for any number of reasons, girls will end up staying home instead of going out. Girls who are still in middle or high school will find it much harder to do their homework assignments or study for exams when they have to care for a baby as well. It will be a very long time before girls get any of their former freedom back.

LOSS OF SLEEP - The first thing girls and women have to know about motherhood is that newborn babies do NOT sleep eight hours a night. All mothers, myself included, can honestly say that babies can Ė and do Ė wake up during the night as many as two or three times. Each time the baby wakes up, mom has to get up with the baby, feed the baby, change the babyís diaper (which could be a messy one), and then get the baby back to sleep. When my son was a newborn baby, there were nights where I got NO sleep whatsoever. Luckily for me, I had completed high school and post-high school education long before that, so I didnít have to get up at 5:00am to go to school after having almost no sleep. Those who are teen moms will not be so lucky.

Loss of Money - Whatever money a girl/woman used to spend on herself will have to be spent on the baby, and that cost is far more than most girls could begin to anticipate. These costs include diapers, food, clothing, baby equipment (car seat, crib, stroller, baby carriers, baby and child toys, etc.) and so much more. Anyone who wants to do the math can begin their research by going to their local grocery store and checking out the baby food and diaper sections. Just make sure you have a notebook and calculator, because you will need to multiply those costs for each item several times per week. Thatís just for food and diapers, you havenít even started on the costs for clothing, baby equipment and toys. That will add a staggering amount to your calculations, and the sum will be far higher than you could imagine. If you plan to put the baby in day care for any amount of time during the week, you will have to add up those costs too. Get the picture now? Having a baby costs a HUGE amount of money, which many girls and young women simply do not have, unless they have wealthy parents.
Ocean56

AOL

#226718 Dec 8, 2012
HARDSHIP #4: LOSS OF EDUCATION AND JOB/CAREER OPPORTUNITIES - As hard as it is to acknowledge, a working mother of any age cannot have the same kind of freedom, flexibility or mobility as a woman without children has. If a girl cannot complete high school due to the demands of motherhood, she will not be able to go to college or vocational school, as both typically require a high school diploma first. That automatically limits her ability to find good employment, and she may well have to settle for a minimum wage job, which pays far less than what is needed to raise a child comfortably. Girls and women who complete high school may find that many jobs require a college degree or vocational school certificate, and without those, she may still not be able to get a job that pays a decent salary. A high school diploma alone is no guarantee of good employment, but all girls need one if they hope to advance to higher levels of education that their chosen job or career requires.

HARDSHIP #5: LOSS OF MOBILITY - Those who donít have children have a rather naÔve idea that parents can just as easily take a baby with them whenever they go out. They are half right. Yes, parents can take a baby out with them, but it is far from easy. Even going to the grocery store with a baby can be a huge hassle. First they have to get the baby dressed, which can be difficult when the little one is happy being home and doesnít want to be dressed to go out. After getting baby dressed, which can take much longer than mom expected, mom then has to put baby into the car seat, get baby out of the car seat when she arrives at the store, then carry baby around until she can find a cart with an infant carrier. Most grocery stores have very few of those, as I personally discovered long ago. Some may not have any. Going to a restaurant with a baby can also be very stressful, especially if baby suddenly begins crying or screaming for unknown reasons. Mothers who walk into restaurants with screaming or crying babies will find themselves the object of hostile stares, which usually last until they finally have to leave.

HARDSHIP #6: LOSS OF PRIVATE TIME - When a baby arrives, a mom will quickly find that she doesnít have privacy any more. If she used to read books for hours with few or no interruptions, that will no longer be an option for her. If she is a teen mom who needs quiet time to complete her homework assignments or study for important final exams, that wonít be possible either. A baby will demand her attention many times during the day, so she wonít have private time for doing the things she enjoys or needs to complete.

HARDSHIP #7: DEALING WITH COLIC Ė For girls/women who are unaware, colic is a long period of crying, screaming and shrieking that can last for many hours a day, and even all night. It can begin when the baby is as young as three weeks old, and it can go on until the baby is five months old. My son had colic for almost two months as an infant. For me, it seemed more like two years. During that time, the crying usually began in the early evening and would last until past midnight. I often walked around the small apartment, carrying him in my arms, for hours trying to comfort him, but nothing I did really worked. He wouldnít eat, and he most certainly didnít sleep, and I was a wreck as a result. Being deprived of sleep, with a colicky baby on top of that, can really feel like torture for a mom after a while. I was no exception.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

#226719 Dec 8, 2012
Ocean56 wrote:
<quoted text>
I can definitely understand how hard it can be to live so far away from one's family at a time when you really need them. Glad to hear you're taking action, in the form of making plans to move back to be closer to your family. That's a good step in the right direction.
I'll keep sending positive thoughts your way.:-)
Thank you! Believe it or not, your kind words have put a smile on my face. You never know how much you need people until you REALLY need them.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226720 Dec 8, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
You are ABSOLUTELY right. In most states, being outside the uterus IS the necessity for legal recognition.
You're catching on.
And it shouldn't be. See?

I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."

“Peace be with you”

Since: Sep 09

Good will to all!

#226721 Dec 8, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
On what grounds do you oppose legal abortion? Do you value women? Because if you do, it is insulting on your part to decide for them what's "moral". Forcing a continued pregnancy on anyone unwilling is draconian and barbaric and it just won't work.

Countries with strict anti-abortions laws show next to little difference in the numbers. Meanwhile, countries that have liberal abortion laws and support women/children via paid maternity leave, subsidized daycare, etc. have diminished numbers.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226728 Dec 8, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
No. Abortion is legal because it's a fact.

I believe that abortion should remain legal because a woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will. Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares. Should it be made illegal again, it's a slippery slope to forced birthing.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226729 Dec 8, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Abortion is legal because it's a fact.
I believe that abortion should remain legal because a woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will. Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares. Should it be made illegal again, it's a slippery slope to forced birthing.
"woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will."

Actually, if the alternative is a dead baby, then there are pros and cons to be weighed for each alternative. Should I go back to the thalidomide analogy?

"forced birthing"?

What's that, exactly?

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226730 Dec 8, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will."
Actually, if the alternative is a dead baby, then there are pros and cons to be weighed for each alternative. Should I go back to the thalidomide analogy?
"forced birthing"?
What's that, exactly?
The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning. During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail.

And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226731 Dec 8, 2012
"The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning."

We were already over this. What you eat in the egg does not constitute a developing chick.

"During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail."

"Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares"

"Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?"

"Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will?"

Also:

https://www.google.com/search...

None of those are babies. Fine.

"And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense."

"Please notice that I can state my argument with ad hominem arguments. I'm sorry I can't say the same about you."

Now that we've established that you can't live up to your own (admittedly low) standards, why don't we analyze what you said. You said that if abortion was criminalized it would be a "slippery slope" to "forced birthing", implying that banning abortion itself would not be "forced birthing".

That's common sense.

I'm also simultaneously highly amused and disgusted that accusing one's opponent of being pro-childbirth is now an actual critique.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226732 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"The primary natural purpose of egg white is to protect the yolk and provide additional nutrition for the growth of the embryo (when fertilized)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_white
"and z/e/f/ into a baby"
What you're doing is conflating baby with INFANT. Baby is a nontechnical term that I feel applies to the unborn. Your argument is that with the proper circumstances, an acorn becomes a tree and this is analogous with fetal development. Well, under proper circumstances, a newborn becomes a rational, autonomous, sapient human being. But you wouldn't say that a gurgling newborn dimwit is actually on our level?
What you're doing is begging the question. You're simply asserting that being outside the womb is a necessity for legal recognition.
"Baby" is a colloquial expression that applies to my dog "Baby," my BF when he has been good, my 20 year old daughters and my car.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226733 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will."
Actually, if the alternative is a dead baby, then there are pros and cons to be weighed for each alternative. Should I go back to the thalidomide analogy?
"forced birthing"?
What's that, exactly?
It is what women put up with and died on account of before safe and legal abortion and reliable legal contraception. Even so, women resisted. My Mother had an abortion when it was illegal.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226734 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning."
We were already over this. What you eat in the egg does not constitute a developing chick.
"During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail."
"Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares"
"Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?"
"Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will?"
Also:
https://www.google.com/search...
None of those are babies. Fine.
"And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense."
"Please notice that I can state my argument with ad hominem arguments. I'm sorry I can't say the same about you."
Now that we've established that you can't live up to your own (admittedly low) standards, why don't we analyze what you said. You said that if abortion was criminalized it would be a "slippery slope" to "forced birthing", implying that banning abortion itself would not be "forced birthing".
That's common sense.
I'm also simultaneously highly amused and disgusted that accusing one's opponent of being pro-childbirth is now an actual critique.
WTF are you talking about?

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226735 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
"Should" in one hand and shit in the other, each handful has the same value.
Ocean56

AOL

#226736 Dec 9, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
Thank you! Believe it or not, your kind words have put a smile on my face. You never know how much you need people until you REALLY need them.
You're very welcome, and I'm glad I could help, even in a small way.:-)

Ocean56

AOL

#226737 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
Thank goodness it's not for YOU to decide on the abortion issue. That has already been done, by the SCOTUS.

If you believe abortion is wrong, nobody is forcing you to have one. You just don't get to make sexual and reproductive decisions for anyone but yourself.

Motherhood is still an option, which a woman can cheerfully REJECT if she doesn't want the hardships and responsibilities that motherhood involves. She can reject it if she doesn't ever want pregnancy or children, or if she is DONE having kids and doesn't want any more. In any case, unless it is YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226738 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
Abortion is legal because women have the same number of abortions legal or illegal.

Criminalizing or making abortions inaccessible kills women and their fetuses.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226739 Dec 9, 2012
http://io9.com/5958187/what-happens-to-women-...

The researchers, led by Diana Greene Foster, followed and did intensive interviews with these women, who ran the gamut of abortion experiences. Some obtained abortions easily, for some it was a struggle to get them, and some were denied abortions because their pregnancies had lasted a few days beyond the gestational limits of their local clinics. Two weeks ago, the research group presented what they'd learned after two years of the planned five-year, longitudinal "Turnaway Study" at the recent American Public Health Association conference in San Francisco.

Here's the short version of what they discovered, from a post they made on the Global Turnaway Study Facebook page:

We have found that there are no mental health consequences of abortion compared to carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term. There are other interesting findings: even later abortion is safer than childbirth and women who carried an unwanted pregnancy to term are three times more likely than women who receive an abortion to be below the poverty level two years later.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226740 Dec 9, 2012
Here is a link to the Turnaway Study of Women denied abortion.

http://www.arhp.org/UploadDocs/Dobkin.pdf

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