There is Everything Wrong with Abortion
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226729 Dec 8, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Abortion is legal because it's a fact.
I believe that abortion should remain legal because a woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will. Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares. Should it be made illegal again, it's a slippery slope to forced birthing.
"woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will."

Actually, if the alternative is a dead baby, then there are pros and cons to be weighed for each alternative. Should I go back to the thalidomide analogy?

"forced birthing"?

What's that, exactly?

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226730 Dec 8, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will."
Actually, if the alternative is a dead baby, then there are pros and cons to be weighed for each alternative. Should I go back to the thalidomide analogy?
"forced birthing"?
What's that, exactly?
The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning. During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail.

And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226731 Dec 8, 2012
"The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning."

We were already over this. What you eat in the egg does not constitute a developing chick.

"During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail."

"Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares"

"Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?"

"Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will?"

Also:

https://www.google.com/search...

None of those are babies. Fine.

"And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense."

"Please notice that I can state my argument with ad hominem arguments. I'm sorry I can't say the same about you."

Now that we've established that you can't live up to your own (admittedly low) standards, why don't we analyze what you said. You said that if abortion was criminalized it would be a "slippery slope" to "forced birthing", implying that banning abortion itself would not be "forced birthing".

That's common sense.

I'm also simultaneously highly amused and disgusted that accusing one's opponent of being pro-childbirth is now an actual critique.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226732 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"The primary natural purpose of egg white is to protect the yolk and provide additional nutrition for the growth of the embryo (when fertilized)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_white
"and z/e/f/ into a baby"
What you're doing is conflating baby with INFANT. Baby is a nontechnical term that I feel applies to the unborn. Your argument is that with the proper circumstances, an acorn becomes a tree and this is analogous with fetal development. Well, under proper circumstances, a newborn becomes a rational, autonomous, sapient human being. But you wouldn't say that a gurgling newborn dimwit is actually on our level?
What you're doing is begging the question. You're simply asserting that being outside the womb is a necessity for legal recognition.
"Baby" is a colloquial expression that applies to my dog "Baby," my BF when he has been good, my 20 year old daughters and my car.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226733 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
"woman should not be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will."
Actually, if the alternative is a dead baby, then there are pros and cons to be weighed for each alternative. Should I go back to the thalidomide analogy?
"forced birthing"?
What's that, exactly?
It is what women put up with and died on account of before safe and legal abortion and reliable legal contraception. Even so, women resisted. My Mother had an abortion when it was illegal.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226734 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning."
We were already over this. What you eat in the egg does not constitute a developing chick.
"During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail."
"Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares"
"Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?"
"Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will?"
Also:
https://www.google.com/search...
None of those are babies. Fine.
"And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense."
"Please notice that I can state my argument with ad hominem arguments. I'm sorry I can't say the same about you."
Now that we've established that you can't live up to your own (admittedly low) standards, why don't we analyze what you said. You said that if abortion was criminalized it would be a "slippery slope" to "forced birthing", implying that banning abortion itself would not be "forced birthing".
That's common sense.
I'm also simultaneously highly amused and disgusted that accusing one's opponent of being pro-childbirth is now an actual critique.
WTF are you talking about?

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226735 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
"Should" in one hand and shit in the other, each handful has the same value.
Ocean56

AOL

#226736 Dec 9, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
Thank you! Believe it or not, your kind words have put a smile on my face. You never know how much you need people until you REALLY need them.
You're very welcome, and I'm glad I could help, even in a small way.:-)

Ocean56

AOL

#226737 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
Thank goodness it's not for YOU to decide on the abortion issue. That has already been done, by the SCOTUS.

If you believe abortion is wrong, nobody is forcing you to have one. You just don't get to make sexual and reproductive decisions for anyone but yourself.

Motherhood is still an option, which a woman can cheerfully REJECT if she doesn't want the hardships and responsibilities that motherhood involves. She can reject it if she doesn't ever want pregnancy or children, or if she is DONE having kids and doesn't want any more. In any case, unless it is YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226738 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
And it shouldn't be. See?
I love how so much of your argument is "Abortion should be legal because it already is."
Abortion is legal because women have the same number of abortions legal or illegal.

Criminalizing or making abortions inaccessible kills women and their fetuses.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226739 Dec 9, 2012
http://io9.com/5958187/what-happens-to-women-...

The researchers, led by Diana Greene Foster, followed and did intensive interviews with these women, who ran the gamut of abortion experiences. Some obtained abortions easily, for some it was a struggle to get them, and some were denied abortions because their pregnancies had lasted a few days beyond the gestational limits of their local clinics. Two weeks ago, the research group presented what they'd learned after two years of the planned five-year, longitudinal "Turnaway Study" at the recent American Public Health Association conference in San Francisco.

Here's the short version of what they discovered, from a post they made on the Global Turnaway Study Facebook page:

We have found that there are no mental health consequences of abortion compared to carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term. There are other interesting findings: even later abortion is safer than childbirth and women who carried an unwanted pregnancy to term are three times more likely than women who receive an abortion to be below the poverty level two years later.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226740 Dec 9, 2012
Here is a link to the Turnaway Study of Women denied abortion.

http://www.arhp.org/UploadDocs/Dobkin.pdf

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226741 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"The alternative is NOT a dead baby, unless YOU eat chickens for breakfast each morning."
We were already over this. What you eat in the egg does not constitute a developing chick.
"During the first trimester, the embryo or fetus is NOT viable, even with extraordinary means, and it is NOT a baby. You only use that term to attempt emotional blackmail."
"Each woman must have a right to bodily autonomy or we become nothing more than brood mares"
"Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?"
"Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will?"
Also:
https://www.google.com/search...
None of those are babies. Fine.
"And if you cannot fathom what forced birthing is, then you are extremely dense. Use some common sense."
"Please notice that I can state my argument with ad hominem arguments. I'm sorry I can't say the same about you."
Now that we've established that you can't live up to your own (admittedly low) standards, why don't we analyze what you said. You said that if abortion was criminalized it would be a "slippery slope" to "forced birthing", implying that banning abortion itself would not be "forced birthing".
That's common sense.
I'm also simultaneously highly amused and disgusted that accusing one's opponent of being pro-childbirth is now an actual critique.
And what portion of the egg DO you eat? It really doesn't matter as everything but the shell is necessary for the egg to develop into a chick.

If abortion is criminalized, what choice does a woman have when she becomes pregnant? Unless she wishes to be arrested, she is FORCED to have a child she either doesn't want or doesn't feel she can take adequate care of.

For 98% of women, adoption is not an option. Only 2% of women go through with it. It's incredibly difficult.

You don't seem to have much respect for women, as you feel that a cluster of cells smaller than the head of a pin is more important than her LIFE and her existing children.

I find that repugnant.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226742 Dec 9, 2012
" And what portion of the egg DO you eat? It really doesn't matter as everything but the shell is necessary for the egg to develop into a chick."

Some form of carbon-based sustenance is necessary for any human being to live. That doesn't mean that we're what we eat.

"If abortion is criminalized, what choice does a woman have when she becomes pregnant? Unless she wishes to be arrested, she is FORCED to have a child she either doesn't want or doesn't feel she can take adequate care of. "

"For 98% of women, adoption is not an option. Only 2% of women go through with it. It's incredibly difficult. "

Having an abortion is completely salutary, but adoption is a horrific experience.

"You don't seem to have much respect for women, as you feel that a cluster of cells smaller than the head of a pin is more important than her LIFE and her existing children.

I find that repugnant. "

Oh dear, someone who favors the legal killing of innocent people finds my views repugnant. That's right up there with "the party of Teddy Kennedy and Bill Clinton is shocked at 'anti-woman' invective".

For the record, I think abortion should be legal is the woman's life is in danger. Just not for convenience. Under your reasoning, killing a newborn should be acceptable, but you'd realize how much of a moron you'd sound like if you said that, so you desperately try to come up with some reason to be discriminatory.
Nanack Kenden

Racine, WI

#226743 Dec 9, 2012
I was ignoring everyone other than the guy I just replied to on the grounds that their posts somehow found a way to be sub-par for an internet chat board, but this I think merits a response.

"Thank goodness it's not for YOU to decide on the abortion issue. That has already been done, by the SCOTUS."

Just like the SCOTUS deemed slavery and Japanese internment okay?

Those were also repugnant rulings wholly endorsed by the same party and philosophy that supports Roe.
Truth Check

Magalia, CA

#226744 Dec 9, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
And what portion of the egg DO you eat? It really doesn't matter as everything but the shell is necessary for the egg to develop into a chick.
If abortion is criminalized, what choice does a woman have when she becomes pregnant? Unless she wishes to be arrested, she is FORCED to have a child she either doesn't want or doesn't feel she can take adequate care of.
For 98% of women, adoption is not an option. Only 2% of women go through with it. It's incredibly difficult.
You don't seem to have much respect for women, as you feel that a cluster of cells smaller than the head of a pin is more important than her LIFE and her existing children.
I find that repugnant.
It seems that when this same woman was once a cluster of cells, you had no respect for her.
I find that repugnant.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226745 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
" And what portion of the egg DO you eat? It really doesn't matter as everything but the shell is necessary for the egg to develop into a chick."
Some form of carbon-based sustenance is necessary for any human being to live. That doesn't mean that we're what we eat.
"If abortion is criminalized, what choice does a woman have when she becomes pregnant? Unless she wishes to be arrested, she is FORCED to have a child she either doesn't want or doesn't feel she can take adequate care of. "
"For 98% of women, adoption is not an option. Only 2% of women go through with it. It's incredibly difficult. "
Having an abortion is completely salutary, but adoption is a horrific experience.
"You don't seem to have much respect for women, as you feel that a cluster of cells smaller than the head of a pin is more important than her LIFE and her existing children.
I find that repugnant. "
Oh dear, someone who favors the legal killing of innocent people finds my views repugnant. That's right up there with "the party of Teddy Kennedy and Bill Clinton is shocked at 'anti-woman' invective".
For the record, I think abortion should be legal is the woman's life is in danger. Just not for convenience. Under your reasoning, killing a newborn should be acceptable, but you'd realize how much of a moron you'd sound like if you said that, so you desperately try to come up with some reason to be discriminatory.
Show me where I said killing a newborn should be legal. Show me. I defy you to find ANYTHING in which I said anything even resembling that remark.

You are reading a great deal into my posts which is understandable. Otherwise you have nothing to argue about.

Define "convenience." Is it convenience for a 14 year old who hasn't even graduated 8th grade to have an abortion? Is it "convenient" for a woman in an abusive relationship to have an abortion? Is it convenient for a woman on welfare who has just completed school so she is able to get off welfare?

I'm done.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226746 Dec 9, 2012
Truth Check wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems that when this same woman was once a cluster of cells, you had no respect for her.
I find that repugnant.
Obviously I had no respect for myself when I was a cluster of cells either.

What about it?

I care about BORN children. I find it repugnant to have a child who is not wanted nor loved to be born to a woman who didn't want it.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226747 Dec 9, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
I was ignoring everyone other than the guy I just replied to on the grounds that their posts somehow found a way to be sub-par for an internet chat board, but this I think merits a response.
"Thank goodness it's not for YOU to decide on the abortion issue. That has already been done, by the SCOTUS."
Just like the SCOTUS deemed slavery and Japanese internment okay?
Those were also repugnant rulings wholly endorsed by the same party and philosophy that supports Roe.
And the above has exactly what to do with the fact that I am pregnant and I want an abortion?

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226748 Dec 9, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
Show me where I said killing a newborn should be legal. Show me. I defy you to find ANYTHING in which I said anything even resembling that remark.
You are reading a great deal into my posts which is understandable. Otherwise you have nothing to argue about.
Define "convenience." Is it convenience for a 14 year old who hasn't even graduated 8th grade to have an abortion? Is it "convenient" for a woman in an abusive relationship to have an abortion? Is it convenient for a woman on welfare who has just completed school so she is able to get off welfare?
I'm done.
It is a verbose sanctimonious dumbass. But it wants to be IN CHARGE.

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