There is Everything Wrong with Abortion

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

#226683 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. I'm going to have fun with that first paragraph...
a. The only part where I mention God is where I say that sex without consequences is NOT divinely endowed. That's the only place where I reference Him, and it's to say that He doesn't play a part.
b. I suppose you have problem with the Declaration of Independence. "[E]ndowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." and all that.
c. For the fiftieth time, if you're a woman and pregnant, odds are you had something to do with it. The biological purpose of sex is procreation (as opposed to driving a car, which is geared towards transportation, not crashes).
I also love how you can't keep track of your own analogy. First you compare pregnancy to crashing, then it's "if I'm about to wreck and can somehow get out of the way in the last minute, I'm sure as hell going to." Actually, per your own rules, if you're pregnant, you've already crashed.
Seriously, it's like if you drink, drive, crash, and then insist that it's not your fault because you drove really, really slowly. "Why should I pay for that guy's hospital bills? I may have been drunk, but it's not my fault he was there at that particular moment."
Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as "fun." Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great.

The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature.

You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it.

Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226684 Dec 6, 2012
"Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as 'fun.'"

I'm not a very good sportsman. I think that shooting fish in a barrel is fun.

"Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great."

Also, Declaration of Independence is void. Got it.

"The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature."

I said that that the primary biological purpose of sex is procreation and that that's always a risk that has to be accounted for. I did not say that no one may ever have sex for any other reason.

"You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it. "

You would however leave someone else there to cover up your negligence.

"Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact. "

Okay fine. Instead of legalizing abortion, I'll simply support legalizing shooting abortionists, provided that the perpetrator is a woman. After all, the fingers she uses to pull the trigger belong to her body.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

#226685 Dec 6, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as "fun." Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great.
The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature.
You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it.
Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact.
In the mood I'm in, and the sh*t I've gone through in the past week that has eventually led to my decision to have an abortion not more than a week ago, I'll go ahead and invite you to shoot yourself. You have no clue what it's like to be me, who I am or what I'm going through. And I'm almost certain that if you did, you wouldn't be able to handle it. So unfortunately I'm not in the right frame of mind to argue without being personal, I'll let my friends here take over. But just to let you know, right now I'm not in a good place and thank GOD I had the ability to have an abortion before it got any worse. Only slime like you in your comfortable little lives are able to judge. In my opinion, eff off and die for all I care.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226686 Dec 6, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
In the mood I'm in, and the sh*t I've gone through in the past week that has eventually led to my decision to have an abortion not more than a week ago, I'll go ahead and invite you to shoot yourself. You have no clue what it's like to be me, who I am or what I'm going through. And I'm almost certain that if you did, you wouldn't be able to handle it. So unfortunately I'm not in the right frame of mind to argue without being personal, I'll let my friends here take over. But just to let you know, right now I'm not in a good place and thank GOD I had the ability to have an abortion before it got any worse. Only slime like you in your comfortable little lives are able to judge. In my opinion, eff off and die for all I care.
;D
Ocean56

AOL

#226687 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
I must SAY, I am amused by your RANDOM capitalization that PERVADES your "reasoning".(I'm also amused by people who insist that the life of a baby is meaningless getting morally indignant about anything.)
I suppose that if a woman doesn't want to be a mother, she can just smother her newborn. And if you object, who the hell are you to make that decision for her? She doesn't have to be the mother, you know.
If a woman wants to minimize her chances of getting pregnant, don't have sex. Sorry to sound like a stick in the mud. Sex without consequences is not a fundamental right endowed by our creator.
The fact that you didn't want or plan for the consequences of your actions does not absolve you from them.
1. I couldn't care less what you claim to be "amused" by. As far as I'M concerned, there's no "baby" at the point of conception, no matter what anti-choice fanatics or religionists say.

2. If a woman doesn't WANT to be a mother, she doesn't have to stay pregnant and give birth against her will. Motherhood is OPTIONAL, not required, even if a pregnancy happens. That means a woman can cheerfully opt OUT of motherhood if she doesn't ever want pregnancy or children.

3. Women who never want to be mothers DON'T have to remain celibate for life to avoid the UNWANTED outcome of pregnancy, contrary to what regressive religionists like you believe. Also, all contraceptive methods can and DO fail occasionally. When birth control fails and a pregnancy results, the ONLY person who decides whether or not to continue the pregnancy is the WOMAN who is pregnant. I know, you don't like it. Again, too bad. If it isn't YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision. Simple as that.
Ocean56

AOL

#226688 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
I said that that the primary biological purpose of sex is procreation and that that's always a risk that has to be accounted for. I did not say that no one may ever have sex for any other reason.
So what. Just because YOU -- and other regressive anti-choice fanatics like you -- say "the primary purpose of sex is procreation" doesn't mean everyone goes along with that BELIEF. Procreation is not the ONLY reason for having sex, and those who wish to avoid the unwanted outcome of pregnancy usually use some form of contraception to prevent it. Bottom line; NO woman has to "account for" having sex by being forced to gestate a pregnancy and give birth against her will.

Motherhood is still OPTIONAL, not required, even if a pregnancy happens. That means a woman can cheerfully opt OUT of motherhood if her birth control fails, and she doesn't want pregnancy or children.
Ocean56

AOL

#226689 Dec 7, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
In the mood I'm in, and the sh*t I've gone through in the past week that has eventually led to my decision to have an abortion not more than a week ago, I'll go ahead and invite you to shoot yourself. You have no clue what it's like to be me, who I am or what I'm going through. And I'm almost certain that if you did, you wouldn't be able to handle it. So unfortunately I'm not in the right frame of mind to argue without being personal, I'll let my friends here take over. But just to let you know, right now I'm not in a good place and thank GOD I had the ability to have an abortion before it got any worse. Only slime like you in your comfortable little lives are able to judge. In my opinion, eff off and die for all I care.
{{{{{Mpnf1979}}}}}}. Sorry you're having a difficult time right now, and I'm sending you my best thoughts and good wishes. You made the decision that you felt was best for YOU, and you don't have to explain or justify it to anyone.

Hugs to you.
Ocean56

AOL

#226690 Dec 7, 2012
If girls and women think school or work is hard now, they should know that becoming a mother will be ten times harder. Many mothers and grandmothers don’t tell young girls and women in their family exactly how hard motherhood truly is, for reasons known only to them. I strongly disagree with the practice of keeping girls in ignorance of this. I believe they NEED to know what being a mother will require of them, so they can make an informed decision about being a mother, even if it means some girls will decide not to be mothers at any point in their lives. That is just fine if some don't want to be mothers. Not all girls or women are suited to be moms, and choosing NOT to be a mother is just as valid as the choice to be one.

Some of the hardships mothers of all ages will face once a baby arrives include -- but are not limited to -- the following:

1. Loss of Freedom
2. Loss of Sleep
3. Loss of money
4. Loss of education and job/career opportunities
5. Loss of mobility
6. Loss of private time
7. Dealing with colic

There is no escaping the fact that becoming a mother makes a girl’s/woman's life much HARDER and she loses most, if not all, of the benefits and comforts she had before she got pregnant. Too many girls/women are PRESSURED into having children by family members and/or religious community, and purposely aren't told just how very hard motherhood is until AFTER they have had a baby. I think it is high time that changed. If some girls/women decide they don't want the hardships of motherhood, that is fine. The choice for a woman to be childfree is just as valid and respectable as the choice to be a mother.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226692 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
1. Our whole bodies are made of cells, and thus could conceivably be called a "cluster" of them. Your wording that I borrowed for fun is just a means of dehumanizing the baby. Even at the earliest stages of development, the zygote is a fairly complex entity.
In fact, since I'm extraordinarily lazy, I'll just copy and paste a big block of text from www.caseforlife.com/evidence.asp :
"Dr. Maureen Condic points out that embryos are living human beings 'precisely because they possess the single defining feature of human life that is lost in the moment of death - the ability to function as a coordinated organism rather than merely as a group of living cells.' Condic, Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, explains the important distinction between individual parts and whole human embryos overlooked by Bailey:
'The critical difference between a collection of cells and a living organism is the ability of an organism to act in a coordinated manner for the continued health and maintenance of the body as a whole. It is precisely this ability that breaks down at the moment of death, however death might occur. Dead bodies may have plenty of live cells, but their cells no longer function together in a coordinated manner.'"
2. Your mindset should include the legalization of thalidomide. Sure, the baby post-birth would be affected, but the drug itself would be taken within the womb, when according to you the mother has the right to dispose of him as she wishes.
3. "Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will? Don't her rights to life and bodily autonomy supercede that of a zygote or embryo smaller than the head of a pin?"
Well she could not have sex (or just use contraception). If you choose to do something that you know carries the risk of pregnancy, you have to bear the consequences.
4. You seem to have tacitly admitted that under your system of morals, a fly (or a dog, or an armadillo, or even a tree) has more rights than a 16-week old embryo.
5. Out of curiosity, if a baby was born prematurely and was forced to go on a respirator, would it be okay to pull the plug? Its a mindless, non-sentient, non-sapient bulge of tissue that doesn't perceive its surroundings, lacks a will to live, a drain on both the hospital and mother, and completely dependent on an artificial machine for life.
Plagiarism is an ugly thing. Please quote your source by pasting in the link.

ALL of this doesn't address the issue I pointed out.

Why should a woman be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will?

Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226693 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as 'fun.'"
I'm not a very good sportsman. I think that shooting fish in a barrel is fun.
"Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great."
Also, Declaration of Independence is void. Got it.
"The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature."
I said that that the primary biological purpose of sex is procreation and that that's always a risk that has to be accounted for. I did not say that no one may ever have sex for any other reason.
"You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it. "
You would however leave someone else there to cover up your negligence.
"Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact. "
Okay fine. Instead of legalizing abortion, I'll simply support legalizing shooting abortionists, provided that the perpetrator is a woman. After all, the fingers she uses to pull the trigger belong to her body.
Ah! You nailed it. "Reproductive RIGHTS."

She has the RIGHT to give birth and keep the child.

She has the RIGHT to give birth and give the child up for adoption.

She has the RIGHT to have an abortion if she feels she cannot be the mother that child deserves.

Thank you for understanding!

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Walled Lake, MI

#226694 Dec 7, 2012
Ocean56 wrote:
<quoted text>
{{{{{Mpnf1979}}}}}}. Sorry you're having a difficult time right now, and I'm sending you my best thoughts and good wishes. You made the decision that you felt was best for YOU, and you don't have to explain or justify it to anyone.
Hugs to you.
Thanks, Ocean. This has been a hard week for me. Going through all this and being totally alone with no one to rely on. It's just been rough. Some people are compassionate and others like that other idiot don't give a sh*t about actual people, they just care about a cause and claim they care about people. She's a disgusting person.

I'm trying to heal while also making plans to get back to my family and friends. I never knew when I moved up here that I would be completely abandoned by someone so close to me. Just goes to show you don't really know what someone's capable of...

It's going to take time, but I will get stronger and hopefully the last 7 years will be a blur.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226695 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a joke. right?
No. It is logic.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226696 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
I must SAY, I am amused by your RANDOM capitalization that PERVADES your "reasoning".(I'm also amused by people who insist that the life of a baby is meaningless getting morally indignant about anything.)
I suppose that if a woman doesn't want to be a mother, she can just smother her newborn. And if you object, who the hell are you to make that decision for her? She doesn't have to be the mother, you know.
If a woman wants to minimize her chances of getting pregnant, don't have sex. Sorry to sound like a stick in the mud. Sex without consequences is not a fundamental right endowed by our creator.
The fact that you didn't want or plan for the consequences of your actions does not absolve you from them. Your argument is literally just "If I didn't want it to happen, I shouldn't deal with it." I wonder if that's the defense Ted Kennedy used if he spoke to Mary Jo Kopechne's parents. "Well, you see, I didn't MEAN to drive into the lake and kill your daughter. Well, now that everything's cleared up..."
It is creepy how often Forced Birthers fantasize about killing children.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226697 Dec 7, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks, Ocean. This has been a hard week for me. Going through all this and being totally alone with no one to rely on. It's just been rough. Some people are compassionate and others like that other idiot don't give a sh*t about actual people, they just care about a cause and claim they care about people. She's a disgusting person.
I'm trying to heal while also making plans to get back to my family and friends. I never knew when I moved up here that I would be completely abandoned by someone so close to me. Just goes to show you don't really know what someone's capable of...
It's going to take time, but I will get stronger and hopefully the last 7 years will be a blur.
Courage, my Friend. You have lots of it Stand on it. I am holding you in the Light.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226698 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"And the fact is that zygotes are NOT complex at all. The zygote is an undistinguished mass of cells, each identical to the others."
...and rapidly growing and developing. As was noted earlier, the "undistinguished mass of cells" has enough genetic information to design a completely new individual. Your description would be better suited for toenail cells.
"Soundslike Condic is putting her philosophy ahead of the facts. The fact is that an embryo has no indepentant existance outside the mother, thus it cannot be called a living human being. "
Says who? You're just asserting what you want to be true. It's living, and it's a member of homo sapiens. Living human being.
"Thalidomide is legal. What were you thinking?"
Quoteth Wikipedia:
"It was sold from 1957 until 1961, when it was withdrawn after being found to be a teratogen - a cause of birth defects."
Now it might be legal for people who aren't pregnant, which would include all men, but that's besides the point, isn't it?
"Besides there is a HUGE difference between choosing to abort, and choosing to do something that will condemn a human being to a lifetime of suffereing. You might as well claim that I have the right to come and cut off your arms and legs. "
Choosing to abort is a choice to deny a human being the right to any lifetime at all. Let's say that because of complications arising from the drug, the crippled newborn days days after birth. No "lifetime of suffereing."
"ALL forms of birth control fail.
Not all sex is voluntary.
No one has the right to tell anyone else that they cannot have sex.(Well, except maybe for a parent talking to a minor child...)
Withholding sex is a grounds for divorce."
You're right, I don't have a right to prohibit anyone else from having sex. Which isn't what I'm doing, now is it? I'm saying that sex always carries a risk of pregnancy and that the only way to obviate it utterly is not to have sex. If you want sex, you better make sure you're playing it safe.
" Isufficient information. Depending on just HOW premature it is, there could be zero chance of it surviving, or it could be severely handicapped, both physically and mentally. Pulling the plug could well be the greatest blessing that one could give to that infant."
Let's say that infant is completely out of it for the next nine months, and at the end it will be completely recovered.
" And if the drunk guy hits you, why should you pay his bills? "
"You" in this sentence would be the unborn baby, so I completely agree.
A fetus is human, it is alive, and it may be unwanted. Too bad, so sad.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226699 Dec 7, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
"Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as 'fun.'"
I'm not a very good sportsman. I think that shooting fish in a barrel is fun.
"Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great."
Also, Declaration of Independence is void. Got it.
"The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature."
I said that that the primary biological purpose of sex is procreation and that that's always a risk that has to be accounted for. I did not say that no one may ever have sex for any other reason.
"You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it. "
You would however leave someone else there to cover up your negligence.
"Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact. "
Okay fine. Instead of legalizing abortion, I'll simply support legalizing shooting abortionists, provided that the perpetrator is a woman. After all, the fingers she uses to pull the trigger belong to her body.
It is creepy how often Forced Birthers fantasize about killing doctors.

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

#226700 Dec 7, 2012
The poof out of corrie st wrote:
I think that women should be given a financial reward for aborting their babies. if people keep giving birth at this rate the world will be out of room in 50yrs.
if god was really like the dude in the bible then he wouldnt have let us get in this state.
euthanasia and suicide should also be encouraged.
and everyone should be given a lethal injection at say 75 years old.
No thank you. I think folks should leave women the frick alone. In my family we live to 90 with all brains intact. You are recomending that I be executed when I have a good 15 years to go? Teh stoopid it burns.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

Walled Lake, MI

#226701 Dec 7, 2012
CherryTheTart wrote:
<quoted text>
Courage, my Friend. You have lots of it Stand on it. I am holding you in the Light.
Thank you, Cherry. I need all the strength I can borrow.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226702 Dec 7, 2012
CherryTheTart wrote:
<quoted text>
A fetus is human, it is alive, and it may be unwanted. Too bad, so sad.
It's creepy how dismissive you are of other people's lives.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226703 Dec 7, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
Plagiarism is an ugly thing. Please quote your source by pasting in the link.
ALL of this doesn't address the issue I pointed out.
Why should a woman be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against her will?
Why should she be forced to risk her life to give birth?
(a) I did paste the link.

(b) Because the alternative is a dead baby.

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