There is Everything Wrong with Abortion
The poof out of corrie st

UK

#226666 Dec 4, 2012
I think that women should be given a financial reward for aborting their babies. if people keep giving birth at this rate the world will be out of room in 50yrs.

if god was really like the dude in the bible then he wouldnt have let us get in this state.

euthanasia and suicide should also be encouraged.

and everyone should be given a lethal injection at say 75 years old.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226667 Dec 5, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a joke. right?
No. Not at all.

One of the Pro-Birther arguments is a z/e/f that is aborted has "no choice."

Yet, we leave it no choice when we give birth.

Simple logic.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226668 Dec 5, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Not at all.
One of the Pro-Birther arguments is a z/e/f that is aborted has "no choice."
Yet, we leave it no choice when we give birth.
Simple logic.
Actually, suicide is always an option for people who wish not to live anymore.

Let's extend your "logic" to other scenarios.

"I want to poison my newborn. It should be my choice."

"Well, what's his choice? Why doesn't he get a say?"

"He's a non-sapient cluster of cells, he can't even conceive of a 'say'. Besides, we're also not taking his opinion into account if we don't poison him."

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226669 Dec 5, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, suicide is always an option for people who wish not to live anymore.
Let's extend your "logic" to other scenarios.
"I want to poison my newborn. It should be my choice."
"Well, what's his choice? Why doesn't he get a say?"
"He's a non-sapient cluster of cells, he can't even conceive of a 'say'. Besides, we're also not taking his opinion into account if we don't poison him."
A living, breathing sentient human being is protected by law. He/She has RIGHTS according to our legal system.

A cluster of cells before a specific point of gestation (dependant upon state) does not.j

It always amazes me when people come up with the "lets murder the baby" argument. It makes NO sense.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226670 Dec 5, 2012
mamma-san wrote:
<quoted text>
A living, breathing sentient human being is protected by law. He/She has RIGHTS according to our legal system.
A cluster of cells before a specific point of gestation (dependant upon state) does not.j
It always amazes me when people come up with the "lets murder the baby" argument. It makes NO sense.
It always amazes me when pro-aborts mention the fact that infanticide is against the law, whereas abortion is not. Yes. That's the point. We feel that abortion is comparable to infanticide and thus SHOULD be illegal. That's the debate.

A newborn may be "living, breathing, sentient," (just like a zygote/embryo/fetus is living, and very soon breathing and sentient) but so's a dog. So are certain types of plants. A newborn lacks (in the words of Peter Singer, an pro-abort who possesses significantly more intellectual consistency than you) "rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness".

A newborn is no smarter than a fly (in fact, a fly can care for itself, something a newborn isn't capable of), and when it comes to sheer brainpower it's closer to that "cluster of cells" than it is to you or me.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226671 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
It always amazes me when pro-aborts mention the fact that infanticide is against the law, whereas abortion is not. Yes. That's the point. We feel that abortion is comparable to infanticide and thus SHOULD be illegal. That's the debate.
A newborn may be "living, breathing, sentient," (just like a zygote/embryo/fetus is living, and very soon breathing and sentient) but so's a dog. So are certain types of plants. A newborn lacks (in the words of Peter Singer, an pro-abort who possesses significantly more intellectual consistency than you) "rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness".
A newborn is no smarter than a fly (in fact, a fly can care for itself, something a newborn isn't capable of), and when it comes to sheer brainpower it's closer to that "cluster of cells" than it is to you or me.
You have every right to believe that abortion is wrong, and I'll fight to the death for your right to believe as you wish.

By the same token, understand that not everybody believes as you do, and that each woman must make the reproductive decision that is right for her life.

Again, understand the difference between LIVING (anything living) and not able to survive outside a woman's uterus. That applies to dogs, cats, armadillos, and babies.

If it's a cluster of cells, unable to survive outside that woman's uterus for more than a few seconds, then her rights to NOT be pregnant and give birth take precedence.

Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will? Don't her rights to life and bodily autonomy supercede that of a zygote or embryo smaller than the head of a pin?

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226672 Dec 6, 2012
Please notice that I can state my argument with ad hominem arguments. I'm sorry I can't say the same about you.

“Becoming a better me!”

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#226673 Dec 6, 2012
err... "withOUT ad hominem arguments."

Insomnia sucks :)
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226675 Dec 6, 2012
1. Our whole bodies are made of cells, and thus could conceivably be called a "cluster" of them. Your wording that I borrowed for fun is just a means of dehumanizing the baby. Even at the earliest stages of development, the zygote is a fairly complex entity.

In fact, since I'm extraordinarily lazy, I'll just copy and paste a big block of text from www.caseforlife.com/evidence.asp :

"Dr. Maureen Condic points out that embryos are living human beings 'precisely because they possess the single defining feature of human life that is lost in the moment of death - the ability to function as a coordinated organism rather than merely as a group of living cells.' Condic, Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, explains the important distinction between individual parts and whole human embryos overlooked by Bailey:



'The critical difference between a collection of cells and a living organism is the ability of an organism to act in a coordinated manner for the continued health and maintenance of the body as a whole. It is precisely this ability that breaks down at the moment of death, however death might occur. Dead bodies may have plenty of live cells, but their cells no longer function together in a coordinated manner.'"

2. Your mindset should include the legalization of thalidomide. Sure, the baby post-birth would be affected, but the drug itself would be taken within the womb, when according to you the mother has the right to dispose of him as she wishes.

3. "Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will? Don't her rights to life and bodily autonomy supercede that of a zygote or embryo smaller than the head of a pin?"

Well she could not have sex (or just use contraception). If you choose to do something that you know carries the risk of pregnancy, you have to bear the consequences.

4. You seem to have tacitly admitted that under your system of morals, a fly (or a dog, or an armadillo, or even a tree) has more rights than a 16-week old embryo.

5. Out of curiosity, if a baby was born prematurely and was forced to go on a respirator, would it be okay to pull the plug? Its a mindless, non-sentient, non-sapient bulge of tissue that doesn't perceive its surroundings, lacks a will to live, a drain on both the hospital and mother, and completely dependent on an artificial machine for life.
Ocean56

AOL

#226676 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
3. "Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will? Don't her rights to life and bodily autonomy supercede that of a zygote or embryo smaller than the head of a pin?"
Well she could not have sex (or just use contraception). If you choose to do something that you know carries the risk of pregnancy, you have to bear the consequences.
Ah, so you're another forced birther who thinks a woman who has sex should be PUNISHED with forced pregnancy gestation and birth, even if she never wanted to BE pregnant in the first place. Got it.

But guess what, no matter what YOU believe, NO woman has to stay pregnant and give birth against her will. You should be aware, if your aren't already, that ALL contraceptive methods can and DO fail occasionally. When birth control failure happens and a pregnancy results, the ONLY person who gets to make the choice is the woman who is pregnant. Therefore, if it isn't YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision.

Motherhood is OPTIONAL, not required, even if a pregnancy happens. That means a woman can cheerfully opt OUT of motherhood if she doesn't ever want pregnancy or children. And she doesn't have to remain celibate for the rest of her life to avoid unwanted pregnancy either. Don't like it? Too bad. It isn't up to you to make sexual and reproductive decisions for anyone but yourself.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226677 Dec 6, 2012
Ocean56 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, so you're another forced birther who thinks a woman who has sex should be PUNISHED with forced pregnancy gestation and birth, even if she never wanted to BE pregnant in the first place. Got it.
But guess what, no matter what YOU believe, NO woman has to stay pregnant and give birth against her will. You should be aware, if your aren't already, that ALL contraceptive methods can and DO fail occasionally. When birth control failure happens and a pregnancy results, the ONLY person who gets to make the choice is the woman who is pregnant. Therefore, if it isn't YOUR pregnancy, it isn't your decision.
Motherhood is OPTIONAL, not required, even if a pregnancy happens. That means a woman can cheerfully opt OUT of motherhood if she doesn't ever want pregnancy or children. And she doesn't have to remain celibate for the rest of her life to avoid unwanted pregnancy either. Don't like it? Too bad. It isn't up to you to make sexual and reproductive decisions for anyone but yourself.
I must SAY, I am amused by your RANDOM capitalization that PERVADES your "reasoning".(I'm also amused by people who insist that the life of a baby is meaningless getting morally indignant about anything.)

I suppose that if a woman doesn't want to be a mother, she can just smother her newborn. And if you object, who the hell are you to make that decision for her? She doesn't have to be the mother, you know.

If a woman wants to minimize her chances of getting pregnant, don't have sex. Sorry to sound like a stick in the mud. Sex without consequences is not a fundamental right endowed by our creator.

The fact that you didn't want or plan for the consequences of your actions does not absolve you from them. Your argument is literally just "If I didn't want it to happen, I shouldn't deal with it." I wonder if that's the defense Ted Kennedy used if he spoke to Mary Jo Kopechne's parents. "Well, you see, I didn't MEAN to drive into the lake and kill your daughter. Well, now that everything's cleared up..."

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

#226678 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
I must SAY, I am amused by your RANDOM capitalization that PERVADES your "reasoning".(I'm also amused by people who insist that the life of a baby is meaningless getting morally indignant about anything.)
I suppose that if a woman doesn't want to be a mother, she can just smother her newborn. And if you object, who the hell are you to make that decision for her? She doesn't have to be the mother, you know.
If a woman wants to minimize her chances of getting pregnant, don't have sex. Sorry to sound like a stick in the mud. Sex without consequences is not a fundamental right endowed by our creator.
The fact that you didn't want or plan for the consequences of your actions does not absolve you from them. Your argument is literally just "If I didn't want it to happen, I shouldn't deal with it." I wonder if that's the defense Ted Kennedy used if he spoke to Mary Jo Kopechne's parents. "Well, you see, I didn't MEAN to drive into the lake and kill your daughter. Well, now that everything's cleared up..."
Once you refer to any higher being having anything to do with this process, you've lost credibility. After all, what "creator" would knowingly give the "gift of life" to a woman he knows doesn't want it or can't care for it or will get rid of it. Since he's omniscient and all...

This is a foolish argument. I won't stop having sex just because I might get pregnant any more than I'm going to stop driving a car because I might wreck. What I can do it take precautions, but if I'm about to wreck and can somehow get out of the way in the last minute, I'm sure as hell going to.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226679 Dec 6, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Once you refer to any higher being having anything to do with this process, you've lost credibility. After all, what "creator" would knowingly give the "gift of life" to a woman he knows doesn't want it or can't care for it or will get rid of it. Since he's omniscient and all...
This is a foolish argument. I won't stop having sex just because I might get pregnant any more than I'm going to stop driving a car because I might wreck. What I can do it take precautions, but if I'm about to wreck and can somehow get out of the way in the last minute, I'm sure as hell going to.
Wow. I'm going to have fun with that first paragraph...

a. The only part where I mention God is where I say that sex without consequences is NOT divinely endowed. That's the only place where I reference Him, and it's to say that He doesn't play a part.

b. I suppose you have problem with the Declaration of Independence. "[E]ndowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." and all that.

c. For the fiftieth time, if you're a woman and pregnant, odds are you had something to do with it. The biological purpose of sex is procreation (as opposed to driving a car, which is geared towards transportation, not crashes).

I also love how you can't keep track of your own analogy. First you compare pregnancy to crashing, then it's "if I'm about to wreck and can somehow get out of the way in the last minute, I'm sure as hell going to." Actually, per your own rules, if you're pregnant, you've already crashed.

Seriously, it's like if you drink, drive, crash, and then insist that it's not your fault because you drove really, really slowly. "Why should I pay for that guy's hospital bills? I may have been drunk, but it's not my fault he was there at that particular moment."

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#226680 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
1. Our whole bodies are made of cells, and thus could conceivably be called a "cluster" of them. Your wording that I borrowed for fun is just a means of dehumanizing the baby. Even at the earliest stages of development, the zygote is a fairly complex entity.
Facts, when used properly, can be your friend. Misused, they are you enemy. And the fact is that zygotes are NOT complex at all. The zygote is an undistinguished mass of cells, each identical to the others. The next stage is not a whole lot better, since the blastocyst differes from the zygote only in having an inner mass and an outer layer.

It is only AFTER the blastocyst is lucky enough to implant in the uterine wall and it develops into an embryo that there is ANY degree of complexity.

And make no mistake, it IS a matter of luck, since the MAJORITY of zygotes & blastocysts just get flushed down the toilet with the woman's next period.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
In fact, since I'm extraordinarily lazy, I'll just copy and paste a big block of text from www.caseforlife.com/evidence.asp :
"Dr. Maureen Condic points out that embryos are living human beings 'precisely because they possess the single defining feature of human life that is lost in the moment of death - the ability to function as a coordinated organism rather than merely as a group of living cells.' Condic, Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, explains the important distinction between individual parts and whole human embryos overlooked by Bailey:
Soundslike Condic is putting her philosophy ahead of the facts. The fact is that an embryo has no indepentant existance outside the mother, thus it cannot be called a living human being.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
2. Your mindset should include the legalization of thalidomide. Sure, the baby post-birth would be affected, but the drug itself would be taken within the womb, when according to you the mother has the right to dispose of him as she wishes.
Thalidomide is legal. What were you thinking?

Besides there is a HUGE difference between choosing to abort, and choosing to do something that will condemn a human being to a lifetime of suffereing. You might as well claim that I have the right to come and cut off your arms and legs.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
3. "Doesn't every woman deserve the right to NOT be pregnant and give birth against her will? Don't her rights to life and bodily autonomy supercede that of a zygote or embryo smaller than the head of a pin?"
Well she could not have sex (or just use contraception). If you choose to do something that you know carries the risk of pregnancy, you have to bear the consequences.
ALL forms of birth control fail.

Not all sex is voluntary.

No one has the right to tell anyone else that they cannot have sex.(Well, except maybe for a parent talking to a minor child...)

Withholding sex is a grounds for divorce.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
4. You seem to have tacitly admitted that under your system of morals, a fly (or a dog, or an armadillo, or even a tree) has more rights than a 16-week old embryo.
I would say that EXPLICITLY, that is a valid statement. An embryo has ZERO rights, by definition.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
5. Out of curiosity, if a baby was born prematurely and was forced to go on a respirator, would it be okay to pull the plug? Its a mindless, non-sentient, non-sapient bulge of tissue that doesn't perceive its surroundings, lacks a will to live, a drain on both the hospital and mother, and completely dependent on an artificial machine for life.
Isufficient information. Depending on just HOW premature it is, there could be zero chance of it surviving, or it could be severely handicapped, both physically and mentally. Pulling the plug could well be the greatest blessing that one could give to that infant.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#226681 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. I'm going to have fun with that first paragraph...
a. The only part where I mention God is where I say that sex without consequences is NOT divinely endowed. That's the only place where I reference Him, and it's to say that He doesn't play a part.
b. I suppose you have problem with the Declaration of Independence. "[E]ndowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." and all that.
Careful where you go with this, since according to the Bible, there is no problem with abortion...
Nanack Kenden wrote:
c. For the fiftieth time, if you're a woman and pregnant, odds are you had something to do with it. The biological purpose of sex is procreation (as opposed to driving a car, which is geared towards transportation, not crashes).
But procreation is NOT the only, nor even the most significant part of sex. Sex is an important part of forming and maintaining a loving bond between couples.
Nanack Kenden wrote:
I also love how you can't keep track of your own analogy. First you compare pregnancy to crashing, then it's "if I'm about to wreck and can somehow get out of the way in the last minute, I'm sure as hell going to." Actually, per your own rules, if you're pregnant, you've already crashed.
Seriously, it's like if you drink, drive, crash, and then insist that it's not your fault because you drove really, really slowly. "Why should I pay for that guy's hospital bills? I may have been drunk, but it's not my fault he was there at that particular moment."
And if the drunk guy hits you, why should you pay his bills?
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226682 Dec 6, 2012
"And the fact is that zygotes are NOT complex at all. The zygote is an undistinguished mass of cells, each identical to the others."

...and rapidly growing and developing. As was noted earlier, the "undistinguished mass of cells" has enough genetic information to design a completely new individual. Your description would be better suited for toenail cells.

"Soundslike Condic is putting her philosophy ahead of the facts. The fact is that an embryo has no indepentant existance outside the mother, thus it cannot be called a living human being. "

Says who? You're just asserting what you want to be true. It's living, and it's a member of homo sapiens. Living human being.

"Thalidomide is legal. What were you thinking?"

Quoteth Wikipedia:

"It was sold from 1957 until 1961, when it was withdrawn after being found to be a teratogen - a cause of birth defects."

Now it might be legal for people who aren't pregnant, which would include all men, but that's besides the point, isn't it?

"Besides there is a HUGE difference between choosing to abort, and choosing to do something that will condemn a human being to a lifetime of suffereing. You might as well claim that I have the right to come and cut off your arms and legs. "

Choosing to abort is a choice to deny a human being the right to any lifetime at all. Let's say that because of complications arising from the drug, the crippled newborn days days after birth. No "lifetime of suffereing."

"ALL forms of birth control fail.

Not all sex is voluntary.

No one has the right to tell anyone else that they cannot have sex.(Well, except maybe for a parent talking to a minor child...)

Withholding sex is a grounds for divorce."

You're right, I don't have a right to prohibit anyone else from having sex. Which isn't what I'm doing, now is it? I'm saying that sex always carries a risk of pregnancy and that the only way to obviate it utterly is not to have sex. If you want sex, you better make sure you're playing it safe.

" Isufficient information. Depending on just HOW premature it is, there could be zero chance of it surviving, or it could be severely handicapped, both physically and mentally. Pulling the plug could well be the greatest blessing that one could give to that infant."

Let's say that infant is completely out of it for the next nine months, and at the end it will be completely recovered.

" And if the drunk guy hits you, why should you pay his bills? "

"You" in this sentence would be the unborn baby, so I completely agree.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

#226683 Dec 6, 2012
Nanack Kenden wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. I'm going to have fun with that first paragraph...
a. The only part where I mention God is where I say that sex without consequences is NOT divinely endowed. That's the only place where I reference Him, and it's to say that He doesn't play a part.
b. I suppose you have problem with the Declaration of Independence. "[E]ndowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." and all that.
c. For the fiftieth time, if you're a woman and pregnant, odds are you had something to do with it. The biological purpose of sex is procreation (as opposed to driving a car, which is geared towards transportation, not crashes).
I also love how you can't keep track of your own analogy. First you compare pregnancy to crashing, then it's "if I'm about to wreck and can somehow get out of the way in the last minute, I'm sure as hell going to." Actually, per your own rules, if you're pregnant, you've already crashed.
Seriously, it's like if you drink, drive, crash, and then insist that it's not your fault because you drove really, really slowly. "Why should I pay for that guy's hospital bills? I may have been drunk, but it's not my fault he was there at that particular moment."
Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as "fun." Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great.

The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature.

You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it.

Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226684 Dec 6, 2012
"Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as 'fun.'"

I'm not a very good sportsman. I think that shooting fish in a barrel is fun.

"Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great."

Also, Declaration of Independence is void. Got it.

"The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature."

I said that that the primary biological purpose of sex is procreation and that that's always a risk that has to be accounted for. I did not say that no one may ever have sex for any other reason.

"You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it. "

You would however leave someone else there to cover up your negligence.

"Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact. "

Okay fine. Instead of legalizing abortion, I'll simply support legalizing shooting abortionists, provided that the perpetrator is a woman. After all, the fingers she uses to pull the trigger belong to her body.

“Ignorance is bliss.”

Since: May 11

West Bloomfield, MI

#226685 Dec 6, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting that you view the reproductive rights of women as "fun." Any reference to some creator makes your argument void. If you care to proceed without it, great.
The biological process of sex at its most fundamental aspect is sex. It is also used to unify two people. It is also used for pleasure. People don't often have sex because they want to procreate. They have sex because they want to feel closeness with another person. That is still very biological in nature.
You obviously didn't understand my analogy. I could be in a crash, could be hurt, but if the car catches on fire, I'm sure as hell not going to go down with it.
Fact of the matter is, you have no business telling a woman what she should do with her own body. You'll never have any control over the situation no matter what. That's a simple fact.
In the mood I'm in, and the sh*t I've gone through in the past week that has eventually led to my decision to have an abortion not more than a week ago, I'll go ahead and invite you to shoot yourself. You have no clue what it's like to be me, who I am or what I'm going through. And I'm almost certain that if you did, you wouldn't be able to handle it. So unfortunately I'm not in the right frame of mind to argue without being personal, I'll let my friends here take over. But just to let you know, right now I'm not in a good place and thank GOD I had the ability to have an abortion before it got any worse. Only slime like you in your comfortable little lives are able to judge. In my opinion, eff off and die for all I care.
Nanack Kenden

Sussex, WI

#226686 Dec 6, 2012
Mpnf1979 wrote:
<quoted text>
In the mood I'm in, and the sh*t I've gone through in the past week that has eventually led to my decision to have an abortion not more than a week ago, I'll go ahead and invite you to shoot yourself. You have no clue what it's like to be me, who I am or what I'm going through. And I'm almost certain that if you did, you wouldn't be able to handle it. So unfortunately I'm not in the right frame of mind to argue without being personal, I'll let my friends here take over. But just to let you know, right now I'm not in a good place and thank GOD I had the ability to have an abortion before it got any worse. Only slime like you in your comfortable little lives are able to judge. In my opinion, eff off and die for all I care.
;D

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