Why Should Jesus Love Me?

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#601362 Oct 15, 2013
lil whispers wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =ac3Bp8gKm2IXX
Enjoy
Thanks LW..........

;o)

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#601363 Oct 15, 2013
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know...I don't see it as trying to convert anyone or convincing anyone that I am "gifted"...it was and is...trying to find a way of understanding...explaining how I feel about certain aspects of "religion".
I have come to realize how foolish my thinking was on that...it is why I am not here as much I suppose.
Besides...I am trying to make a living with my band..."The Singing Demoniacs"! LOL
I know you dont Annie, but HL obviously does and I know IANS does.........

The arrogance in this room is so thick its suffocating..........

The singing Demoniacs.........Now theres a blast from the past.......
;o)

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#601364 Oct 15, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
A number have dumped the religion here.
Though I give most of the credit to the religinuts.
It seems their bad behavior trumps rational arguments in persuading some posters the religion is empty nonsense.
I am not aware of any posters going in the opposite direction.
I'm sure its gotten people to think about things. I doubt its planted any seeds though. I think in most cases if not all the seed has to be there. It may just need watering.

I cant imagine anyone leaving christianity because of the behavior of other christians. There has to be a sense that something just isnt right. I feel its just a matter of time for those folks regardless of topix. JMO........

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#601365 Oct 15, 2013
Good afternoon everyone, hope all is well.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#601366 Oct 15, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, you may be one.
But the historical Jesus has little to do with Christianity.
Exactly why I reject Christianity.

“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#601367 Oct 15, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
This from the guy who was stupid enough to think staying out of his daughters life while paying for her support was a good thing.
And I should add: to any one thats buying this bogus story..........

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#601368 Oct 15, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
This from the guy who spends every wakeful hour on this forum.....
More proof you are a liar.

Thanks.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#601369 Oct 15, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
..
The arrogance in this room is so thick its suffocating.....
Some of us are better than you.

It's your own fault.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#601370 Oct 15, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
...
I cant imagine anyone leaving christianity because of the behavior of other christians......
Says the Christian.

<face palm>

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601371 Oct 15, 2013
The Secret Gospel of Mark I -- The Discovery.

With the recent discussion of Secret Mark, I thought a little background might be of interest to some as well as my take on it. Perhaps not. Naw Yah. Here it is anyway.

In 1958, Morton Smith, an eminent Columbia University professor of history, discovered a 1646 edition of Isaac Voss’ Genuine Letters of Ignatius in the library of the Mar Saba monastery, which is near Jerusalem. In the back of that book, scribbled in ink on three blank pages, is what appears to be a handwritten copy of a letter from Clement of Alexandra to someone named Theodore.

Clement was a well-known 2nd century Christian writer and the head of a Christian school run by the first church in Alexandria, Egypt, which the evangelist Mark, the putative author of the Gospel of Mark, is said to have founded. If Theodore ever existed, he is lost to history, as is the original letter to him from Clement. Indeed, the pages that bore the partial copy of Cement’s letter, which Smith photographed, may be lost to history as well, though Smith’s black and white photographs and a librarian’s later color set remain. What also remains is the content of part of that letter, thanks to the late Professor Smith. And that content represents either a spectacular fraud on Christianity or a powerful challenge to the Christian religion as we know it today.

In a nutshell, the letter, often referred to as the Mar Saba Clementine Fragment, but more often simply as the Theodore Letter, speaks of a secret, longer version of the Gospel of Mark, which is now commonly referred to as Secret Mark. That there was an alternate version of the Gospel of Mark is not a surprise, for there were many variants of all the gospels in antiquity. But the contents of this secret gospel are nothing but shocking, for they suggest that a possibly earlier version of Mark was a Gnostic gospel that showed Jesus using secret initiation rites similar to those of the ubiquitous pagan mystery religions of his time. Further, it is possible that the initiation ritual that Jesus used involved a sexual union with a young man, though Clement vehemently disavows such an interpretation in the Theodore Letter.

A few critical scholars and many other commentators have argued that Theodore is a modern fraud. A few have even pointed a finger at Morton Smith as the perpetrator. But over the last 40 years since Smith first published Clement’s letter, virtually all Clement experts have come to accept the letter as genuine. At the same time, many of them believe the sections of Secret Mark in the Theodore Letter are 2nd century additions to the original Gospel of Mark. Nevertheless, more and more scholars have argued that the Secret Mark passages in the Theodore Letter predate the version of Mark in our modern-day Bible and the version of the Gospel of Mark in the New Testament is an abbreviated version of Secret Mark.

“BE BRAVE ENOUGH ”

Since: Oct 09

TO STEP IN MUD PUDDLES

#601372 Oct 15, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Just one. What about several?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =jIbAoz8ihLYXX
I am poor...I can only afford one!

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601373 Oct 15, 2013
The Secret Gospel of Mark II -- John Mark and the First Gospel.

We know little about Mark, or John Mark, the putative author of the gospel that bears his name. We do not even know whether Mark actually wrote the gospel he is credited with, though it is safe to say that critical scholars overwhelmingly believe he did not.

Exactly when and where Mark wrote his gospel, if he is in fact the author, is not certain. The early Christians who sought to answer that question for us do not agree completely. According to Eusebius, a 3rd century Christian writer, Mark wrote his gospel in Rome, and in the 2nd century, Irenaeus claimed it was after the death of Peter, which is supported by a prologue to the Gospel of Mark in some old Latin manuscripts. But John Chrysostom, a 4th century writer, tells us it was in Egypt, and Clement of Alexandria believed Peter was still alive at the time.

In the 17th century, Richard Simon, an eminent Catholic scholar in France, argued both traditions were correct and Mark wrote two versions of his gospel, one in Rome and the other in Egypt. This theory was never widely accepted, and scholars consistently have favored the tradition of a Roman or Syrian origin after Peter’s death, though not by Mark’s hand. But if the Theodore Letter is genuine, it tells us that Richard Simon was on the right track: The church in Alexandria may originally have had a different version of the Gospel of Mark than the church in Rome, and the Alexandrian version may have been the long version, that is, Secret Mark, while Rome may have had an abbreviated version, which ultimately became the Gospel of Mark we know from the Bible.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601374 Oct 15, 2013
The Secret Gospel of Mark III -- The Text.

The Secret Gospel of Mark is actually little more than a couple provisions not contained in canonical Mark but contained in a letter from Titus Flavius Clemens, or Clement of Alexandria, to someone named Theodore. In the letter, Clement tells Theodore that what Theodore was told by the Carpocratians, a libertine gnostic sect of Christians, is untrue. Yes, according to Clement, there is a longer version of Mark that contains some but not all that the Carpocratians claim. Clement then quotes passages from that longer version. From his version of it:
Clement wrote:
....

To you, therefore, I shall not hesitate to answer the questions you have asked, refuting the falsifications by the very words of the gospel. For example, after “And they were in the road going up to Jerusalem” and what follows, until “After three days he shall arise”, the secret gospel brings the following material word for word:

"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him,‘Son of David, have mercy on me.’ But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.

"And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightaway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb, they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do, and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."

After these words follows the text,“And James and John come to him,” and all that section. But “naked man with naked man,” and the other things about which you wrote, are not found.

And after the words,“And he comes into Jericho,” the secret Gospel adds only,“And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them.” But the many other things about which you wrote both seem to be, and are, falsifications.....1
1. Smith, Morton, Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark (Harvard University Press, 1973), p. 447.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601375 Oct 15, 2013
The Secret Gospel of Mark IV – Tying Secret Mark to Canonical Mark.

In the Theodore Letter, Clement tells us where the two fragments of Secret Mark belong in canonical Mark. The first and longer of the two sections goes between Mark 10:34 and 0:35. And because of the parallels with John’s story of Lazarus, this is not surprising, since this is the same point in John’s narrative where the Lazarus story appears, and this story seems to be an earlier version of Lazarus’ story.

The second scrap of Secret Mark goes between the first and second sentences in Mark 10:46, making the verse read:

"And he comes into Jericho. And the sister of the young man Jesus loved was there with his mother and Salome, but Jesus received them not. And as he was leaving Jericho with his disciples and a sizable crowd, Bartimaeus, a blind man, the son of Timaeus, sat by the roadside begging."

Morton Smith argued that there probably was more to the Jericho narrative in Secret Mark than what Clement lets on in the Theodore Letter. According to Smith, the last clause in the new sentence,“but Jesus received them not,” was a phrase canonical Mark never uses but Clement often did -- that is, Clement deleted material from the pericope before relaying it to Theodore.

It is important to note that Mark 10:46 in the canon represents a well-known lacuna -- or gap -- in canonical Mark, and it is likely the Carpocratian version of Mark contained even more material that filled that gap with details of what Jesus did in Jericho.

My guess? It contained some of the material that later found its way into John in modified form as the very late addition known as the Pericope Adulterae.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#601376 Oct 15, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks LW..........
;o)
You know there is always rotten fruit in every bucket. I gave a lot the benefit of the doubt when I first seen some posts but as time went by came to realize was two choices ignore or scroll. I done a lot of scrolling and decided not to read. Also noticed one by one was being sized up for mockery and bashing there is a pattern to this too. Just like the long pauses so PM can be compared and next action set in place and who will go in to post takes place. Now mind you not a tear in my eye I can hand it out too. I got some French no one would understand. The big joke is they going to have to work harder cause I not going nowhere. YOU SEE PEOPLE I do not have to PM to make my point will tell you all straight up just what on my mind but not what you want to read.
Glad you liked the music. Cause I love those fellows.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601377 Oct 15, 2013
The Secret Gospel of Mark Vi – Tying Secret Mark, Canonical Mark, and GoJohn Together.

Enter Marvin Meyer. Meyer sees in canonical Mark and the scraps of Secret Mark that Morton Smith found a significant subplot involving a young man that existed in an earlier version of Mark. I think he is correct. That subplot is incomplete even with the addition of what we have of Secret Mark, but in a nutshell, it starts with the unnamed rich youth in Mark 10.

That rich youth wants salvation but won't give up his wealth to attain it. Even though Jesus looks on that youth and immediately "loved him", Jesus says the boy's attachment to his wealth is too great. Later, from Secret Mark, probably belonging to the same chapter, a youth falls ill, dies, is raised from the dead, loves Jesus, and spends the night with him.

Further on in canonical Mark, in Chapter 14, a youth wearing only a linen cloth has that cloth yanked from him and runs away naked as Jesus is arrested. Finally, in Chapter 16 of canonical Mark, an unnamed youth is discovered in Jesus' otherwise empty tomb. That unnamed youth gives instructions to the women who went to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus on how to hook up with Jesus in Galilee. There, canonical Mark ends abruptly, with only about half a dozen verses following, which were added much later.

Enter the Gospel of John, Miles Fowler, and Evan Powell. The Gospel of John contains two stories that may be relevant to Meyer's perceived subplot in longer Mark: the story of Lazarus and the story of the Beloved Disciple.

Many scholars see Lazarus as a later version of the Secret Mark story of an unnamed youth being raised from the dead. And that makes sense. As Miles Fowler first noted, John tells us it was the Lazarus miracle that resulted in the authorities deciding to put both Jesus and Lazarus to death. And if the unnamed young man in Secret Mark who is raised from the dead is Lazarus, and the naked young man in Mark 14 is that same youth, that may explain why the authorities sought to capture him as well as Jesus. According to John, they wanted to kill both Jesus and Lazarus. That doesn't make it so, it just makes it more likely that the Lazarus tradition emanated from this earlier version of Mark.

And then there is the beloved disciple. From whence came he (and, yes, the Greek insists he is a he)? His homoerotic tradition is legend. King James, the gay monarch who authorized the KJV, famously proclaimed about his lover, "Jesus had his John, and I have my George." Did the suggestive story in John emanate from an earlier version of Mark, perhaps a homoerotic version of Mark; that is, Secret Mark? I think so.

According to Evan Powell, probably so, too, though he did not address the material in Secret Mark or its implications. Powell saw in the last chapter of John -- the so-called appendix to John -- a rewrite of the missing ending of Mark. I agree with him. He was not the first to note this, and since I agree, he was not the last either. But he perhaps stated the case best in the first half of his book on the subject, "The Unfinished Gospel".

It seems the unnamed youth in Secret Mark lives on in canonical Mark as well as the Gospel of John, including John 21, where Jesus probably corrects an earlier claim in longer Mark that the unnamed youth, the Beloved Disciple in John, would not die before Jesus returned. In this later version, John 21, it being clear that all who knew the historical Jesus had passed, Jesus is portrayed as saying, in essence,“I didn’t promise this young one life until I returned, I mere said ‘maybe’.”

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601378 Oct 15, 2013
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I am poor...I can only afford one!
I can't afford any. That's why I rely on YouTube.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#601379 Oct 15, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure its gotten people to think about things. I doubt its planted any seeds though. I think in most cases if not all the seed has to be there. It may just need watering.
I cant imagine anyone leaving christianity because of the behavior of other christians. There has to be a sense that something just isnt right. I feel its just a matter of time for those folks regardless of topix. JMO........
Maybe so.

I have no crystal ball.
Lost In Transition

United States

#601380 Oct 15, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no crystal ball.
I've got a hydrocele.
You can have it if you want.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#601381 Oct 15, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
All those natural disasters are "acts of God." And the damage they cause is often excluded from insurance coverage.
You'd think the Christians would call them acts of Satan.
"God" is just trying to stimulate the economy!!!

;o)

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