Why Should Jesus Love Me?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#600512 Oct 11, 2013
dandruff wrote:
neandertahlian sperm mixed with amazonian monkey vagina fluids
Black coffee here. Salud.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#600513 Oct 11, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
You know the doctrine of Christianity---you experienced Christianity---and you reject the Christianity and it's doctrine. Christianity should not expect any more from you. Whether you're wrong or not is not up to Christianity to decide---but it's between you and God.
That's kind of the point. Only one of us ever showed up for this relationship. Either an omnipotent, omnisicient and omnibenevolent god was hiding from me despite promises to do exactly the opposite in a big way, or it had been invented by men.

As I told Skombolis, I am accustomed to Christians blaming me for that failure, even as their own prayers go unanswered and they fail to receive the promised peace that passeth all understanding and other fruits of the spirit themselves. They seem to have been victimized by a bait and switch tactic in which so much was promised, and so much less was settled for.

Those must be people that want to believe in a god whether one exists or not. That's not me.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#600514 Oct 11, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
He hasn't mentioned it in the past few weeks, but RiversideRedneck attributes a moral decline of our society to the influence of Satan.
Is that something for reasonable, intelligent people to debate and discuss?
I don't mind trying, but there isn't much to say. If Satan exists and is damaging our world, then we're all in serious trouble and have little hope. It means that a god exists that would create an evil devil and set it loose on us. That is the influence of the god - not much better.

It really comes down to whether one will submit to what amounts to psychological terrorism, or trust their senses of reason and decency, and reject that a god like that exists. If this beautiful universe has a god, it is beautiful also.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#600515 Oct 11, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Poor judgment isn't related to morality?
Poor judgment is not the same as immorality. You probably need to make specific statements if you want to make any progress
RiversideRedneck wrote:
How are there actions more moral?
Please keep in mind that my question about morality is intentionally vague, to encompass all humans around the world.
Too vague.

Perhaps we should begin by discussing what morality is before we move on to which acts are moral. We don't seem to agree. You seem to consider unhealthy living a moral issue:

Riverside Redneck wrote: "When as person voluntarily get diabetes, that disease was brought on by immorality, gluttony. When a person willingly has unprotected sex with a stranger and contracts HIV, that's immorality."

As I already said, that's a Christian perspective. Christianity commands submission and obedience to various arbitrary rules, and defines immorality as a deviation from that. I don't.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#600516 Oct 11, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I tried the religion on like a pair of shoes, and gave it about five years to demonstrate that its claims were valid and for the apparent contradictions to resolve themselves. That never happened. The shoes never fit right, so I cast them aside.
EDITED FOR SPACE

t. So-called spirit filled Christians had no more gifts or fruits than anybody else, and prayer was being ignored.
If your god exists, it remained hidden from me despite years of diligently seeking it in good faith. It didn't reach back to me even a little. Many Christians have told me that that was my fault - that somehow, my love and faith were inferior.
So, whether the god never existed, wasn't as powerful as I had been told, or was indifferent to me, over the fullness of time, I realized that this was a dead end, and kicked off the shoes.
Wouldn't it be irrational to do anything else?
And aren't these discussions a huge improvement over what we've come out of?
Yeah I like this much better

I have to admit, I wasn't sure what your answer would be and was wondering if it would be something that made sense to me

The only answers I had heard before were either that deeper study into the Bible led to a disbelief in the Bible or that it was in part due to other people.

The first reason I can't relate to because deeper study actually resolved what I originally saw as contradictions and the second reason simply wouldn't be a way I would think

But at the same time I don't think I have ever met someone before who entered the faith as an adult then left. Most people either join through their family as a child. Then some like myself may leave and come back. Or others than join as an adult generally do so because of a family member or simply their own journey and tend to stay since it was something they decided as an adult

I am curious what made you join in the beginning. Was it just to see if there was anything to it?

But I understand the draw of fellowship. For me, it pretty much goes to the heart of the verse "where two or more are gathered..." because it is one of the places i feel the presence of God. But I can see also how the human bond could be mistaken for something else. Or at least make you decide to give the rest time to catch up to expectations

In my experience, probably the two biggest things that lead to people losing faith in God is real bad things happening or prayers going unanswered. It creates a doubt as to where God could be in all of this to allow such things to happen

For me I guess it came down to my personal understanding of my role and the role of God in all this. I don't believe as many do that every little detail is part of some overall plan. I believe the plan was to give us the gift of life and that that life would also serve as a test. That ultimately we have a say in our fate. I don't believe God intervenes often because to do so would negate the test and inhibit the free will of others. But what he does do is provide us strength and comfort.

To me the Footprints poem says it best.

But I appreciate your answer. It really was an interesting and informational look into your journey and the reasons that led to your decision to leave. A very honest and open explanation and I have to say, its hard to argue your decision was rash or based on things it shouldn't have been. You gave it a sincere effort IMO and it didn't work for you.

If I was going to hazard perhaps one guess from a believer's perspective I might say that maybe deep down you never really expected it to work. It sounds maybe like more of a test-run where you definitely tried but because you were never fully sure to begin with it simply never stuck. Kind of like dating someone you like a lot but don't love and waiting for it to turn into love.

But I don't want to make this about that. Although that was more speculation than finger-pointing. People can't help who they love. But again, thank you for sharing that

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Since: Mar 09

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#600517 Oct 11, 2013
THIRTY rounds of icons!

I feel bad now. That poor little fairy must have snapped.

I picture a lot of eye-twitching and mumbled swearing during the icon process

:)

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#600518 Oct 11, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
That wasn't my position. I never mentioned the USA and I didn't mention 200 years ago. I talked about mankind in general and the years 1013 & 0013 ... Please keep in mind that my question about morality is intentionally vague, to encompass all humans around the world.
You seemed to have been critical of Western secular values, and by implication, their alleged inferiority to Christian values. I answered to that.

Things won't progress until you make a clear and explicit statement of some type, one that doesn't require others to guess what your point is. Then we won't have to read things like "That wasn't my position" and "You misunderstand. You're confusing my question about us being more moral or not as a Christian thing. My questions was the human race in TOTAL, not just the Christians."

Just for the record, I'm not too interested in any moral progress made or not made by tribes in the jungles of the Amazon or Borneo. I'm interested in the cultural struggle playing out in the West between Christian and humanistic worldviews, one which began in Europe in the late Middle Ages and has since been exported to the Americas. It's why I cited the overthrow of Christian values like burning witches, absolute monarchies and slavery as moral progress.

I don't want to play word jumble.

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Since: Mar 09

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#600519 Oct 11, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
You know what they say about people,
that have conversations with themselves..... don't you?
Yep

They normally end up trolling online websites with superhero avatars and make dorky jokes and become quickly obsessed over other anonymous posters

You gotta watch out for weirdos like that:)

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Since: Mar 09

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#600520 Oct 11, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
THIRTY rounds of icons!
I feel bad now. That poor little fairy must have snapped.
I picture a lot of eye-twitching and mumbled swearing during the icon process
:)
50 rounds and counting!

Your mind has become my property

And while I would never use deadly force to protect you, I most certainly own you

At some point two psychiatrists will be watching you in a straight jacket behind the protection of one-way glass trying to figure out the meaning behind the only word you ever speak...Skombolis

Doctor 1: "what do you think it means?"

Doctor 2 "I only wish I knew. Whatever it is, it must have done a number on our patient"

LOL

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Since: Mar 09

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#600521 Oct 11, 2013
Heh heh

61 rounds and counting

Blood pours from the index finger

A half-smashed keyboard somehow manages to still function

Is the icon fairy destined to go out like Citizen Kane?

The computer mouse drops to the floor and the icon fairy manages one final "Skombolis"

LOL, this has me feeling creative for so early in the morning:)

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#600522 Oct 11, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
I am curious what made you join in the beginning. Was it just to see if there was anything to it?
It was a time of great inner turmoil. I had graduated high school very young and had entered university before I was emotionally ready. My parents had given me great gifts: it was assumed that I would go to college - not an option - and I had been convinced that I could do anything. Much was expected of me by all of us.

Then came the dorms, girls, pot, and a system that didn't insist on my participation - no hall monitors, no detention, and no truancy calls home. I fell on my face and had to drop out five minutes before being thrown out.

Now what? I had disappointed myself and the people I loved, and I felt powerless to do better. I needed structure and discipline. So, I gritted my teeth and enlisted. That was a good start, although the changes imposed on me by that choice were painful, and exacerbated my angst.

Eighteen months or so later, I met a Christian girl who led me willingly to the altar twice - first to confess my sins, then to marry her. We were sure that it was God's will. I was primed for all of it. Religion and marriage each gave me even more structure, and I embraced them both.

The military years ended, the religious impulses faded, and without the faith to sustain it, the marriage eventually blighted and failed as well. We had little in common apart from our religion.

I see it all today as a single transformative process manifesting in a few different ways.

The happy ending is that I returned to university, achieved my goals, regained my self-respect, made my parents proud again, and eventually married again - happily.
Skombolis wrote:
In my experience, probably the two biggest things that lead to people losing faith in God is real bad things happening or prayers going unanswered. It creates a doubt as to where God could be in all of this to allow such things to happen
I was never angry at God just as I was never angry at Santa. I went directly from love to disbelief. Unanswered prayers were evidence to me that there was no god, not a reason to be angry.

And as you can see, it was bad things happening that led me to the cross, not the other way around.
Skombolis wrote:
I appreciate your answer. It really was an interesting and informational look into your journey and the reasons that led to your decision to leave. A very honest and open explanation and I have to say, its hard to argue your decision was rash or based on things it shouldn't have been. You gave it a sincere effort IMO and it didn't work for you.
Thanks.
Skombolis wrote:
If I was going to hazard perhaps one guess from a believer's perspective I might say that maybe deep down you never really expected it to work.
I had hoped it would. I wanted it to be true.
Skombolis wrote:
It sounds maybe like more of a test-run where you definitely tried but because you were never fully sure to begin with it simply never stuck. Kind of like dating someone you like a lot but don't love and waiting for it to turn into love.
That's a good metaphor, too - like the shoes.

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Since: Mar 09

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#600523 Oct 11, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
It was a time of great inner turmoil. I had graduated high school very young and had entered university before I was emotionally ready. My parents had given me great gifts: it was assumed that I would go to college - not an option - and I had been convinced that I could do anything. Much was expected of me by all of us.

EDITED FOR STRENGTH

I see it all today as a single transformative process manifesting in a few different ways.
The happy ending is that I returned to university, achieved my goals, regained my self-respect, made my parents proud again, and eventually married again - happily.
<quoted text>
I was never angry at God just as I was never angry at Santa. I went directly from love to disbelief. Unanswered prayers were evidence to me that there was no god, not a reason to be angry.
And as you can see, it was bad things happening that led me to the cross, not the other way around.
<quoted text>
Thanks.
<quoted text>
I had hoped it would. I wanted it to be true.
<quoted text>
That's a good metaphor, too - like the shoes.
I can certainly understand the appeal

After so much had gone wrong, suddenly in one neat package there was happiness and hope. Complete with a fresh start and the promise of unconditional love from both woman and God. And perhaps even the missing ingredient to why things didn't go as expected before. It would have been crazy not to buy into that

But ultimately it was never you. And no amount of trying was going to change that. Granted hindsight is 20/20 but it sounds like looking back you knew you had rose colored glasses on. You were trying to be something you weren't

When I left the faith I didn't expect to return. In fact, I had made some futile attempts that failed because I wasn't so much running to God but but was trying to run from my life. I would have run to anything I thought would work, but when one has nothing, God was pretty much the only option. But for me anyway, that is why it didn't work.

I remember one time as I was lying in my bathtub/bed in the abandoned unit in a housing project that had become my home with a chair against the door as a lock and a gun on my chest for protection, addicted to drugs, and wondering where was God in all this? I wasn't angry either as I knew I had caused these problems but I was very depressed. There would be no miracle that suddenly gave me my life back. Looking back the insane part was that I even wondered where God was in all that. How did i think I would see him living like that?

It wasn't until years of hard work and pain and struggle that my life got better. And as that process improved, my relationship with God got stronger and stronger. He gave me the strength to endure. It as all I needed. But it was only until I realized that was the case that I was able to understand both our roles

But I didn't have the obstacle that you had as far as belief. If anything, I tried my best not to believe as it only added to my burden and shame.

If I have learned two things in life it is that there is never a short-cut to really fix a problem and that when we do the right things for the right reasons, things almost always go better

I don't know why some people believe and others don't

But I do know life is pretty much life for anybody. There will be good times and bad times and tons of mistakes and only putting the time and work in while staying true to ourselves will give us a shot at happiness

Some of us make that journey with God

Some of us make that journey with personal conscience

The journey is this life will be pretty much the same for everyone, just with different approaches and traveling companions

What are your thoughts about when you die? Do you think there is any chance if a continued existence, even if not sentient? Even from a scientific standpoint, energy can't be destroyed

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“Pillars of Creation....”

Since: Jan 11

Into this world we're thrown

#600524 Oct 11, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
How remarkable that they all seem to line up the same way - the good are religious and those that challenge them are bad. It's that behavior that makes you the functional equivalent of other members of the hive that swarm when the church is criticized.
<quoted text>
I don't respect the church, which has pretty much been your litmus test for who you'll get along with. The more aggressive my denouncements of the church become, the more likely you are to attack me personally.
<quoted text>
Actually, I do and just did. What you probably meant is that you don't accept my definition, just as I rejected your characterization of me.
In your previous post you basically agreed with me. Your either with us or against us... Right?

Find a post of mine where I defend the church or admit your lying.

Again you dont define. I mean what i say. Because you define me as a christian doesnt make it so.....

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#600525 Oct 11, 2013
Ians

Edit correction:

Meant to say

EDITED FOR SPACE

More tired than I realized. Gotta hit the hay soon

Thanks again for the exchange, will continue later i am sure

(T) Peace

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“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

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#600526 Oct 11, 2013
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>
Zeus
OK
No , God.

Not Zeus.

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“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

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#600527 Oct 11, 2013
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
FSM is God
So you're not an atheist ?

Ok.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

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#600528 Oct 11, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:

Uh-huh....
So you believe that intuition exists though you can't prove it or demonstrate it.
Ok.
karl44 wrote:

misidentified by many, does not exist.
Intuition does exist.

You've never had a gut feeling about something?

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“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

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#600529 Oct 11, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
That's kind of the point. Only one of us ever showed up for this relationship. Either an omnipotent, omnisicient and omnibenevolent god was hiding from me despite promises to do exactly the opposite in a big way, or it had been invented by men.
As I told Skombolis, I am accustomed to Christians blaming me for that failure, even as their own prayers go unanswered and they fail to receive the promised peace that passeth all understanding and other fruits of the spirit themselves. They seem to have been victimized by a bait and switch tactic in which so much was promised, and so much less was settled for.
Those must be people that want to believe in a god whether one exists or not. That's not me.
I don't blame you for anything.

You have the woman of your dreams, a beautiful home with the "perfect" view, you live with a people you've grown to love, you have money in the bank, you're emotionally and mentally secure, you have a great mind and a great personality.

I'd say that God answered your prayers. Just not in the 5 year timeline you gave Him.

I know you've heard "God works in mysterious ways" and you've probably heard "Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers", yes? Imagine if you're prayers were answered back in MD all those years ago... You would've never met the woman you love and your life would not be the perfect oasis you call it now.

Just sayin'

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#600530 Oct 11, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Poor judgment is not the same as immorality. You probably need to make specific statements if you want to make any progress
<quoted text>
Too vague.
Perhaps we should begin by discussing what morality is before we move on to which acts are moral. We don't seem to agree. You seem to consider unhealthy living a moral issue:
Riverside Redneck wrote: "When as person voluntarily get diabetes, that disease was brought on by immorality, gluttony. When a person willingly has unprotected sex with a stranger and contracts HIV, that's immorality."
As I already said, that's a Christian perspective. Christianity commands submission and obedience to various arbitrary rules, and defines immorality as a deviation from that. I don't.
You see it as a Christian perspective, I see it as an immoral perspective.

How could it be considered moral to willingly risk contracting a VD? Or willingly risk getting a stranger pregnant? All Christian morals aside, how is that moral to you?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#600531 Oct 11, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
You seemed to have been critical of Western secular values, and by implication, their alleged inferiority to Christian values. I answered to that.
Things won't progress until you make a clear and explicit statement of some type, one that doesn't require others to guess what your point is. Then we won't have to read things like "That wasn't my position" and "You misunderstand. You're confusing my question about us being more moral or not as a Christian thing. My questions was the human race in TOTAL, not just the Christians."
Just for the record, I'm not too interested in any moral progress made or not made by tribes in the jungles of the Amazon or Borneo. I'm interested in the cultural struggle playing out in the West between Christian and humanistic worldviews, one which began in Europe in the late Middle Ages and has since been exported to the Americas. It's why I cited the overthrow of Christian values like burning witches, absolute monarchies and slavery as moral progress.
I don't want to play word jumble.
All we've done is trade one set of immoral ideals for another.

Instead of burning witches, now we burn nations. Instead of monarchies, we have the US gubment. Instead of legal slavery, we have illegal slavery. Where's the humanist progress you speak of? I don't see it. If you want to claim that America is better off following humanist values, you'll need to be specific about what those humanist values are and what they've done to make America, or the West, better.

Batter up!

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