Why Should Jesus Love Me?
Anon

Cleveland, OH

#588122 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Clearly, you are correct, I am wasting my time.
Not sure that I see this situation as a winnable/unwinnable one, but an instructive one. RR's teaching us all how insidious structural violence works - he has admitted that he's an unwilling tool of racism. He doesn't want to be a racist, but he has no choice, no power to change himself.
So we know the limits of this man. This is enculturation. It's powerful. That he is conflicted over his own thoughts and behavior and powerless to change them provides a wonderfully strong example of how limited people are by their growth and development. We cannot trust people's subjective realities. So the tools of science, the reflexivity and critical analyzing of the self in the social sciences are so necessary for us to understand humanity.
These tools lead us to reject religion. Just as RR's racism is the direct product of his early environment, so are his religious experiences. "God" certainly spoke to RR in RR's reality, but it is no more objectively real than RR's racist image of black Americans. Just as we can do away with his racism as a product of his early environment, so to can we do away with his religious experiences thusly.
I have no doubt both are meaningful to him, and neither are descriptive of objective reality.
By gawd, one can actually learn something on Topix. Thank you. By the way, I think your assessment of
Chagon is correct. My initial positive opinion of him is slipping with every page I turn. "Noble Savages" is turning into mere entertainment as opposed to illumination. Bah.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#588123 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Clearly, you are correct, I am wasting my time.
Not sure that I see this situation as a winnable/unwinnable one, but an instructive one. RR's teaching us all how insidious structural violence works - he has admitted that he's an unwilling tool of racism. He doesn't want to be a racist, but he has no choice, no power to change himself.
So we know the limits of this man. This is enculturation. It's powerful. That he is conflicted over his own thoughts and behavior and powerless to change them provides a wonderfully strong example of how limited people are by their growth and development. We cannot trust people's subjective realities. So the tools of science, the reflexivity and critical analyzing of the self in the social sciences are so necessary for us to understand humanity.
These tools lead us to reject religion. Just as RR's racism is the direct product of his early environment, so are his religious experiences. "God" certainly spoke to RR in RR's reality, but it is no more objectively real than RR's racist image of black Americans. Just as we can do away with his racism as a product of his early environment, so to can we do away with his religious experiences thusly.
I have no doubt both are meaningful to him, and neither are descriptive of objective reality.
I didn't have time to read many posts that were not directly to me so admittedly I am coming in a little blind as to what has been said in the last few days so instead I am going to make this more of a general post.

I have friends that grew up with some ideas about race and politics that conflicted with my own. I felt fortunate that my parents always instilled in me a strong sense of equality for all people. And this was despite things that may have been the catalyst for a different path with other people. I will just give one example and that is my mother came from from high school one day to find out her father had just been murdered by a couple of black kids in the neighborhood. A neighborhood that was largely Lebanese and Italian. Yet she never looked at it as a black thing. It was simply a bad person thing

But I think of one of my friends in particular where his father was very manipulative. He played one family member against the other to have the kids competing for his attention and his word was law. The extent of denial my own best friend was in to who his father was, even when it came out he had a second familty for years, was hard for me to understand. This is a kid who would take a bullet for me and with whom no subject was ever off the table. Except his father. We all knew just not to ask him questions about the ridiculous amount of disturbing situations that went on with his father, including him faking he had cancer and conning both sons to spend years building a house they were supposed to sell that he ended up moving into with his second family.

His father used to pull him aside for these "man-to-man" talks that included his warped views on race. I am somewhat ashamed to admit it but when I thought his dad did have cancer, I hoped he would die so my friend could finally be free as so much of life from where he went to school to what career he chose was dictated by his father. Slowly over the years I saw his at least reject some of what he was taught. He is no longer racist. That stopped when he went to college and saw for himself certain things weren't true.

part 1 of 2

Since: Sep 10

Redondo Beach, CA

#588124 Sep 10, 2013
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I am at a loss for words...that rarely happens with me but I seem to not be able to put my thoughts together.
I have grandchildren that are half Hispanic...when I hear ethnic jokes or slurs...I see those faces.
What I find appalling are those that are racist and bigoted...act as if they are proud of themselves...as if those traits are "American".
I also hate when someone uses a group of people to insult others...to me that is more of an insult to the group being used.
I don't know Scar...
In our daily lives, each of us should call it out whenever racism raises its ugly head.

Sort of a ground roots approach.

And teach the children the important values.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#588125 Sep 10, 2013
Part 2 of 2 @HFY

I guess my point is that for better or for worse, many of us have morals and values that largely reflect our parents. I don't think we have to look much farther than that most the time. Society is simply a reflection of the family microcosm. Each family unit providing its own socialization. This isn't to say society can't impact things but it is a collection of people who have entered the world largely as who their parents raised them to be

People can overcome their roots. Life experience goes a long way towards that end. Yet I am a liberal against abortion and the death penalty, a Christian, progressive on domestic affairs and conservative on foreign. I am for equal rights. So are both my parents. In a perfect world we would keep all the good teachings and reject the bad. It just isn't that common.

I don't know what the answer is. Parents are just people and will never be perfect. And from what I have seen, it takes decades after adulthood for people to start to re-write parts of their moral code and it is a slow and arduous process with varying degrees of success. Again, I don't know what the answer is. But I believe RR when he says he is trying. I also believe he has a lot to overcome in areas of race. But I think the fact that he is trying and is honest about how he feels has to be a good start.

Yes we can hold people's values up to the light and scrutinize them. Sometimes that is a good thing. But how much do we want to beat someone up that is trying? Is the victory from a sense of moral superiority worth making someone dig their heels in and reject the change the started to embrace?

I am not saying by any means to give someone a free pass. But I am suggesting perhaps some of aggression and judgement should be tempered with patience when someone is making an effort to change. Normally when something is right, it will prove itself on merit. It is an easy argument to present. Sometimes it will at least plant a seed. I do know I have never seen someone pushed into changing how they think. But I have occasionally seen some people react positively to expecting better from them and giving them some things to consider so that they may make the change themselves

IDK, just some thoughts I had anyway. I dislike racism. I dislike it a lot. But there is little I wouldn't do if I thought there was even a chance someone might see it for what it is with some help

(T) Peace

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588126 Sep 10, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent, HFY.
As an anthropologist, you are observing, analyzing, describing the racist, how he became what he is.
My focus is to rid society of racism; to do everything possible to safeguard equality, for example even by teaching tolerance in the schools.
How can we apply your knowledge and understanding, to better achieve the goal of doing away with racism?
Education, removal of structural discrimination against the poor and discriminated groups such as equal access to health and nutritional resources - I doubt the latter is doable in the contemporary conception of capitalism.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588127 Sep 10, 2013
Anon wrote:
<quoted text>
By gawd, one can actually learn something on Topix. Thank you. By the way, I think your assessment of
Chagon is correct. My initial positive opinion of him is slipping with every page I turn. "Noble Savages" is turning into mere entertainment as opposed to illumination. Bah.
Yes, we need much better framed evolutionary theorizing in anthropology - I'm working on it! Being stymied, but working on it :)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588128 Sep 10, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
I didn't have time to read many posts that were not directly to me so admittedly I am coming in a little blind as to what has been said in the last few days so instead I am going to make this more of a general post.
I have friends that grew up with some ideas about race and politics that conflicted with my own. I felt fortunate that my parents always instilled in me a strong sense of equality for all people. And this was despite things that may have been the catalyst for a different path with other people. I will just give one example and that is my mother came from from high school one day to find out her father had just been murdered by a couple of black kids in the neighborhood. A neighborhood that was largely Lebanese and Italian. Yet she never looked at it as a black thing. It was simply a bad person thing
But I think of one of my friends in particular where his father was very manipulative. He played one family member against the other to have the kids competing for his attention and his word was law. The extent of denial my own best friend was in to who his father was, even when it came out he had a second familty for years, was hard for me to understand. This is a kid who would take a bullet for me and with whom no subject was ever off the table. Except his father. We all knew just not to ask him questions about the ridiculous amount of disturbing situations that went on with his father, including him faking he had cancer and conning both sons to spend years building a house they were supposed to sell that he ended up moving into with his second family.
His father used to pull him aside for these "man-to-man" talks that included his warped views on race. I am somewhat ashamed to admit it but when I thought his dad did have cancer, I hoped he would die so my friend could finally be free as so much of life from where he went to school to what career he chose was dictated by his father. Slowly over the years I saw his at least reject some of what he was taught. He is no longer racist. That stopped when he went to college and saw for himself certain things weren't true.
part 1 of 2
Wow - good for your parents, amazing for your mother to deal with loss without succumbing to a racist explanation - very sorry to hear of her loss.

And good for your friend. That takes courage, to address one's early teachings, think on them, and reject the bad. Well done!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588129 Sep 10, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
I guess my point is that for better or for worse, many of us have morals and values that largely reflect our parents. I don't think we have to look much farther than that most the time. Society is simply a reflection of the family microcosm. Each family unit providing its own socialization. This isn't to say society can't impact things but it is a collection of people who have entered the world largely as who their parents raised them to be
Yes, absolutely, but we also need to situate each within historical context - and political and economic context. Without these, we really cannot understand contemporary society.

I have to cut a bit of your post, sorry:
People can overcome their roots. Life experience goes a long way towards that end. Yet I am a liberal against abortion and the death penalty, a Christian, progressive on domestic affairs and conservative on foreign. I am for equal rights.
Good for you. I disagree on the abortion stance, though.
I don't know what the answer is. Parents are just people and will never be perfect. And from what I have seen, it takes decades after adulthood for people to start to re-write parts of their moral code and it is a slow and arduous process with varying degrees of success. Again, I don't know what the answer is. But I believe RR when he says he is trying. I also believe he has a lot to overcome in areas of race. But I think the fact that he is trying and is honest about how he feels has to be a good start.
Couldn't agree more with you about parents - we all learn that as we age, to learn how amazing our parents are and be shocked by their limitations (or failures in our young eyes).

Totally disagree about RR. He's not interested in trying not to be a racist. His statement here was just a stock acknowledgement that racism is bad, but hey, what can you do?

Throughout his racism, he has rejected out of hand any and all explanations to the contrary and dismissed all criticism as "not in the real world."

He doesn't care about learning what "race" is, doesn't care about addressing his racism. He's bent on portraying blacks as "lazy" and "criminal minded" and worse comments by Bongo that were supported as if fact by RR.

If RR cared one bit, he'd read more. He'd listen to the better educated lawyers telling him how the legal system functions against blacks, he'd listen to the social scientist trying to explain why some groups are discriminated against, why they are jailed more (it's Hawaiians in Hawaii, btw, not blacks - America holds down the bottom, and the bottom changes depending on locale).
Yes we can hold people's values up to the light and scrutinize them. Sometimes that is a good thing. But how much do we want to beat someone up that is trying?
It's a good thing to have critique. He's not trying to change, he's fomenting racism.
I am not saying by any means to give someone a free pass. But I am suggesting perhaps some of aggression and judgement should be tempered with patience when someone is making an effort to change. Normally when something is right, it will prove itself on merit. It is an easy argument to present.
At this point, I've given up. Not my job to educate the willfully ignorant. But I will use him as an example - a wonderful example of the damage wealth based societies inflict on those at the bottom.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#588130 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow - good for your parents, amazing for your mother to deal with loss without succumbing to a racist explanation - very sorry to hear of her loss.
And good for your friend. That takes courage, to address one's early teachings, think on them, and reject the bad. Well done!
Yeah there was another time when I was in grade-school where our family and a family we were went went to a Detroit Pistons (Pro basketball) game and after the game their was a toga party for those who wanted to stay. We did not. In the parking lot our families were jumped by about 30 black guys with bottles. Fortunately they started randomly attacking people inside first which allowed a group of about 100 or more guys to mobilize. They poured out of the building and form a half circle around us and used the wall to complete it. They were able to fend off the attacks although half the families, from girls to adults were hospitalized.

I remember how much my mom in particular made sure I understood that bad people do bad things. Bad white people do bad things and bad black people do bad things. And I know as an adult that sounds simple. But society is divided up in so many ways, with so much effort going into reinforcing the idea the one group is better than another, that it is very hard to go through life prejudice-free

Thank-you for the kind words involving my parents and my friend.

You know I look at so many mistakes I have made despite being blessed with a starting point many don't get. I was an upper-middle class white male living in an affluent neighborhood with private schooling through grade-school and one of the best public high-schools in the state. I had good parents, a great older brother, great friends. I was taught properly and I believe was instilled with a good sense of right and wrong

Yet despite all of that, things still went off the tracks completely and more than a few times.

I wonder sometimes what might have been had the starting point been lower. I mean, is the difference between a murderer and a decent person much more than environment? I know people like to think morals are innate but that isn't possible IMO.

It explains why people are who they are sometimes. It doesn't always excuse it. But it is just something I have wondered about over the years. In fact its always been one of the biggest reasons I was never racist. I see someone from a broken home, no father, surrounded by gang violence, no education, nobody to teach them, a mother strung-out, and left to fend on their own from an early age. Just like when I see a video of KKK rallies and see an adult with a child on their shoulders.

I do believe in rare cases people are born with just a tendency to evil that wasn't taught. But so many times I think it is just luck of the draw and what situation we were born into

What about you. Nature or nurture? And how much of it can be overcome?

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588131 Sep 10, 2013
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I am at a loss for words...that rarely happens with me but I seem to not be able to put my thoughts together.
I have grandchildren that are half Hispanic...when I hear ethnic jokes or slurs...I see those faces.
What I find appalling are those that are racist and bigoted...act as if they are proud of themselves...as if those traits are "American".
I also hate when someone uses a group of people to insult others...to me that is more of an insult to the group being used.
No, AnnieJ, when someone uses a group of people to insult others, they are not insulting the group as a whole, but demeaning their own character. Racism doesn't tell us anything about "races." It just tells us how ignorant and intellectually impoverished the racist is.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#588132 Sep 10, 2013
MisterCharrington wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh absolutely no apology required.
It really is no effort besting you, you'll do until an intellect arrives.
xD



Like you would recognize it if you saw it?!!!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#588133 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, absolutely, but we also need to situate each within historical context - and political and economic context. Without these, we really cannot understand contemporary society.
I have to cut a bit of your post, sorry:
<quoted text>
Good for you. I disagree on the abortion stance, though.
<quoted text>
Couldn't agree more with you about parents - we all learn that as we age, to learn how amazing our parents are and be shocked by their limitations (or failures in our young eyes).
Totally disagree about RR. He's not interested in trying not to be a racist. His statement here was just a stock acknowledgement that racism is bad, but hey, what can you do?
Throughout his racism, he has rejected out of hand any and all explanations to the contrary and dismissed all criticism as "not in the real world."
He doesn't care about learning what "race" is, doesn't care about addressing his racism. He's bent on portraying blacks as "lazy" and "criminal minded" and worse comments by Bongo that were supported as if fact by RR.
If RR cared one bit, he'd read more. He'd listen to the better educated lawyers telling him how the legal system functions against blacks, he'd listen to the social scientist trying to explain why some groups are discriminated against, why they are jailed more (it's Hawaiians in Hawaii, btw, not blacks - America holds down the bottom, and the bottom changes depending on locale).
<quoted text>
It's a good thing to have critique. He's not trying to change, he's fomenting racism.
<quoted text>
At this point, I've given up. Not my job to educate the willfully ignorant. But I will use him as an example - a wonderful example of the damage wealth based societies inflict on those at the bottom.
There is no doubt that it is not a level playing field

There is a reason why crack gets 10x the punishment as cocaine

There is a reason individual violent crime is targeted by the judicial system and sensationalized by the press and that the poor get crap lawyers and get sentenced to brutal prisons.

There is a reason white collar crime, when even pursued, is often meant with probation or fines or a stay in a country club jail despite destroying thousands of lives sometimes

There is a reason the death penalty is disproportionately applied to minorities at a staggering rate

There is a reason there are liquor stores on every corner of bad neighborhoods

But at the same time there are many minorities that came here with nothing. Had to leave their family (although not against their will) and scratched and crawled their way out of poverty.

And yes the jobs available for any white minorities were much more prevalent, what the big key to success was the family unit and the closeness of the community.

IMO enough time has gone by where the playing field has started to level itself. And despite getting dealt a crap hand for a long time and still facing a lot of institutional racism, there also has to be a desire to succeed as a people. And it starts with each family and each neighborhood

Their is blame to be had in this regard.

Although this is not a genetic problem.

A lot of things may explain why someone ended up where they did. The choices they made and the chances they had and the guidance they were given. But at the end of the day, its not a black thing. It is not a white thing. It is a person thing. Race is not inherently good or bad. And while there are mitigating societal factors and cultural failures, at the end of the day each person stands or falls on their own choices.

Its a complicated situation. Sometimes i feel sympathy. Sometimes I feel anger. Sometimes I feel nothing. I don't know what the answer is here either. But I do know the color of someone's skin doesn't make them do bad things.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#588134 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Structural violence, what you're doing, is "indirect violence...embedded in the social, political and economic structures that make up society. Since such indirect violence is deeply rooted in pervasive societal forces, its effects are as diverse as racism, sexism, poverty, hunger, violation of human rights and militarism. As indirect violence, structural violence is perhaps especially perniscious because it is often camoflaged and accepted as the norm."
http://www.sunypress.edu/pdf/61489.pdf
That perfectly describes your contribution to American society.
Since you claim this isn't your country it really isn't any of your fkg business who does or does not contributes what. The same goes for all the other loser posters who are not citizens of this country.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588135 Sep 10, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
There is no doubt that it is not a level playing field
There is a reason why crack gets 10x the punishment as cocaine
There is a reason individual violent crime is targeted by the judicial system and sensationalized by the press and that the poor get crap lawyers and get sentenced to brutal prisons.
There is a reason white collar crime, when even pursued, is often meant with probation or fines or a stay in a country club jail despite destroying thousands of lives sometimes
There is a reason the death penalty is disproportionately applied to minorities at a staggering rate
There is a reason there are liquor stores on every corner of bad neighborhoods
But at the same time there are many minorities that came here with nothing. Had to leave their family (although not against their will) and scratched and crawled their way out of poverty.
And yes the jobs available for any white minorities were much more prevalent, what the big key to success was the family unit and the closeness of the community.
IMO enough time has gone by where the playing field has started to level itself. And despite getting dealt a crap hand for a long time and still facing a lot of institutional racism, there also has to be a desire to succeed as a people. And it starts with each family and each neighborhood
Their is blame to be had in this regard.
Although this is not a genetic problem.
Absolutely - and yet our RR answered these with a mocking "it's society's fault then?"
A lot of things may explain why someone ended up where they did. The choices they made and the chances they had and the guidance they were given. But at the end of the day, its not a black thing. It is not a white thing. It is a person thing. Race is not inherently good or bad. And while there are mitigating societal factors and cultural failures, at the end of the day each person stands or falls on their own choices.
Its a complicated situation. Sometimes i feel sympathy. Sometimes I feel anger. Sometimes I feel nothing. I don't know what the answer is here either. But I do know the color of someone's skin doesn't make them do bad things.
If you keep going on like this, I'm going to have to take back some of the nasty names I called you.

:)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588136 Sep 10, 2013
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>Since you claim this isn't your country it really isn't any of your fkg business who does or does not contributes what. The same goes for all the other loser posters who are not citizens of this country.
Hiding: 12

Nano: 4

You keep losing, oh revolting thing.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#588137 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Hiding: 12
Nano: 4
You keep losing, oh revolting thing.
The only thing I'm losing is Time by wasting it on you and you won't see me doing much of that.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#588138 Sep 10, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Absolutely - and yet our RR answered these with a mocking "it's society's fault then?"
<quoted text>
If you keep going on like this, I'm going to have to take back some of the nasty names I called you.
:)
What me? Why did I get get nasty names? Are you sure you just didn't just misread hundreds of my posts?

:)

Despite normally being in the middle of things, there used to be a time I tried to mix in more posts like the last few.

I was going to go off on a whole Topix tangent but its not like anybody needs Topix explained to them

I do prefer these kind of exchanges. Its nice to talk just as people

Anyway, got an early morning. Gonna watch a show on my DVR and then call it a night

(T) Peace

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#588139 Sep 10, 2013
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>The only thing I'm losing is Time by wasting it on you and you won't see me doing much of that.
Hiding: 13

Nano: 4

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#588140 Sep 11, 2013
love it man love it
nelom

Howell, MI

#588141 Sep 11, 2013
he doesn't..

cuz he's not real..

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