Why Should Jesus Love Me?

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#582630
Aug 31, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
It is as plain as a clear, sunshiny day. They even admit to it.
Just so there is no confusion here. What do you think is being implied and how?
Qu_innocence wrote:
The probability that order in the universe and the laws of nature came out of chaos is virtually nil... with that in mind, creation itself is proof that there is a divine being.
What is that probability based upon? Where do the numbers come from, and how is the probability arrived at?
Qu_innocence wrote:
Do you believe in the possibility of the existence of aliens?
Based upon the fact that life has evolved on this planet? Yes.
Qu_innocence wrote:
If either group explicitly believes in their position, then it is faith. Interesting the Spectrum of theistic probability that R. Dawkins conjured up.
As in this example?

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#582631
Aug 31, 2013
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism = I don't believe in your God or any other gods.
It's not a puzzle, Qu.
It is what it is.
You can't get around that.
From what I'm reading... it's not that simple. I mean, I'm sure from you are telling me that it is that simple to you, River. But other atheist's seem to be splitting hairs on the matter and I was ignorant of that. I'm just looking into the matter, myself.

Dawkin's Spectrum of Theistic Probability

"1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."

2.De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."

3.Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."

4.Com pletely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."

5.Leaning towards Agnosticism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."

6.De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

7.Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

Dawkins argues that while there appear to be plenty of individuals that would place themselves as "1" due to the strictness of religious doctrine against doubt, most atheists do not consider themselves "7" because atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind. In print, Dawkins self-identified as a '6', though when interviewed by Bill Maher[3] and later by Anthony Kenny,[4] he suggested '6.9' to be more accurate."

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#582632
Aug 31, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>...and then it all boils down to what I've read from your link and the earlier link, thus far... that a person can have a different view of Atheism and it is not always clear cut as some Atheists may imply.
Then again, some agnostics don't consider themselves as Atheists...
Anyways, the point is what I explained earlier... I wasn't aware of that, thought it was interesting and now realize that atheists aren't always in general consensus with their beliefs in gods' non-existence.
It's very clear. It isn't a belief a deity or deities do not exist, as if I do think they might exist, and am deciding I'll >believe< they don't.

I think much of the problem theist have in grasping the atheist position is that you certainly do believe a deity exists, and so anything that isn't framed in a "belief" concerning your deity, you have difficulty reconciling the difference.
I don't mean that as a slight at all.

I'll say it again.

Atheism is the lack or absence of the faith supported theistic belief that deities exist.

Atheists don't have a theistic belief there are deities.

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#582633
Aug 31, 2013
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism = I don't believe in your God or any other gods.
It's not a puzzle, Qu.
It is what it is.
You can't get around that.
It's difficult for the theist to separate belief from non belief.

They take non belief to mean an active belief there are not deities.

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#582634
Aug 31, 2013
 
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Me too.
<quoted text>
Thanks. I have to get those now.
I generally try to watch all the big movies out of China, but sometimes I miss them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
I don't like these movies. Ip Man was a great Master but Wing Chun was designed for women. It was to keep men from beating us up. It's about balance and defense. It's a way of life. It's not a movie. That being said:

That was a fuckincool clip.

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#582635
Aug 31, 2013
 
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Me too.
<quoted text>
Thanks. I have to get those now.
I generally try to watch all the big movies out of China, but sometimes I miss them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
My pleasure. I think you'll like it. That one you linked looks pretty interesting too.

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#582636
Aug 31, 2013
 
LuciFerr wrote:
<quoted text>
That movie is awesome!
Yeah. It was completely unlike what I was thinking it was going to be.

It has everything a movie should have.

About half way through the first one I thought "Wow, this is a really good movie"

The way it was filmed, scenery, all of it was good.

Liked it.

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#582637
Sep 1, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Woah... hold on thar! I glossed over this. Say we change the points made in your link from Santa to "Christ". So we have Christ is coming to town rather than Santa is coming to town.
Points 1 & 3 would still be "beliefs" just as you said. Whether it was Santa or Christ. Point 1 would be the Christian's explicit position and Point 3 would be the Athiest's explicit position. Do you concur that whether you put Christ or Santa there it is still a belief?
If so, then wouldn't you agree then that both positions require "a leap of faith" as stated earlier?
No,#3 is not the atheist position.

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#582638
Sep 1, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>From what I'm reading... it's not that simple. I mean, I'm sure from you are telling me that it is that simple to you, River. But other atheist's seem to be splitting hairs on the matter and I was ignorant of that. I'm just looking into the matter, myself.
Dawkin's Spectrum of Theistic Probability
"1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2.De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3.Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4.Com pletely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5.Leaning towards Agnosticism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6.De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7.Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
Dawkins argues that while there appear to be plenty of individuals that would place themselves as "1" due to the strictness of religious doctrine against doubt, most atheists do not consider themselves "7" because atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind. In print, Dawkins self-identified as a '6', though when interviewed by Bill Maher[3] and later by Anthony Kenny,[4] he suggested '6.9' to be more accurate."
I left the example out earlier.

Here.
Qu_innocence wrote:
It is as plain as a clear, sunshiny day. They even admit to it.
Just so there is no confusion here. What do you think is being implied and how?
Qu_innocence wrote:
The probability that order in the universe and the laws of nature came out of chaos is virtually nil... with that in mind, creation itself is proof that there is a divine being.
What is that probability based upon? Where do the numbers come from, and how is the probability arrived at?
Qu_innocence wrote:
Do you believe in the possibility of the existence of aliens?
Based upon the fact that life has evolved on this planet? Yes.
Qu_innocence wrote:
If either group explicitly believes in their position, then it is faith. Interesting the Spectrum of theistic probability that R. Dawkins conjured up.
As in this example?
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg601/sca...

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#582639
Sep 1, 2013
 
Here For Now wrote:
<quoted text>
Grow up.
xtian grow-op?

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#582640
Sep 1, 2013
 

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River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
:-)
I'd rather just hug.
I do play the violin. I'm not bad on the cello and guitar either. I have a knack for stringed instruments.
I don't understand your religion. It seems silly to me. That's not your fault.
Don't you dare play no damn games with me. I'm of higher voltage than you could ever have a nightmare over. You don't understand a lot of things and you choosen not to try to understand a lot of things. You and afew others have come in this thread and made it into you own personal play ground of mischief, hatefulness, mockery and in general a slut house. You have disrespected people that never done one damn dirty deed to not a one of you. People who been here for years with each other. You worked at destroying friendships and you certainly have not made the effort to make friend with not a one of the older ones who's been on this thread a number of years. Instead you mocked, played, entertained yourself like some two year old in a sand box. What may be silly to you others treasure dearly yet you think it is your privilege to destroy that. If you do not like religion then you need to find a place where the program you promoting fits. Damn right it not my fault it is yours and you responsible for the way you conduct yourself. Now I going to tell you straight up front stay if you want or leave if you want because I could give a rats azz what you think of me but you can bet your sweet panties I gonna keep you on the line when it comes to the posters that been here for years.So you best watch how you choose to abuse them.

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#582641
Sep 1, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>From what I'm reading... it's not that simple. I mean, I'm sure from you are telling me that it is that simple to you, River. But other atheist's seem to be splitting hairs on the matter and I was ignorant of that. I'm just looking into the matter, myself.
Dawkin's Spectrum of Theistic Probability
"1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2.De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3.Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4.Com pletely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5.Leaning towards Agnosticism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6.De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7.Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
Dawkins argues that while there appear to be plenty of individuals that would place themselves as "1" due to the strictness of religious doctrine against doubt, most atheists do not consider themselves "7" because atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind. In print, Dawkins self-identified as a '6', though when interviewed by Bill Maher[3] and later by Anthony Kenny,[4] he suggested '6.9' to be more accurate."
You're reading too much into it, Qu.

Once again.

Atheist = I don't believe in gods.

There are no buts, ifs, ands, well maybes. It is what it is. You can't get past that fence.

It's like that movie clip that Tide just put up. Wing Chun is simple. It's balance. It's how we live. There are no theatrics about it unless they're made up. When they are made up they're false but nonetheless entertaining.

I'm an atheist. I know.

Your a theist. You don't.

I'm almost a Master of Wing Chun. I know.

You're not. You don't.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

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#582642
Sep 1, 2013
 
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
It's difficult for the theist to separate belief from non belief.
They take non belief to mean an active belief there are not deities.
I read further and I have to respectfully disagree with the author and that particular viewpoint...well, not entirely anyways because I can, in some ways, understand why Atheists are frustrated when trying to explain their views. But one can't get around the fact of "lack of evidence" supposedly... helps to shape their beliefs either way. A belief that a deity doesn't exist is still a belief. I could say, I have a lack of belief in Hermes all day but still yet... I believe hermes doesn't exist. It's a belief.

As far as proving anything. I can't speak for all theists but some theists, like myself, talk from a position of how can anyone believe, when following it to it's logical conclusion, that we just came out of chaos and poof!...exist? There's really nothing to prove 'cept try and explain.

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

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#582643
Sep 1, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
From what I'm reading... it's not that simple. I mean, I'm sure from you are telling me that it is that simple to you, River. But other atheist's seem to be splitting hairs on the matter and I was ignorant of that. I'm just looking into the matter, myself.
Dawkin's Spectrum of Theistic Probability
"1.Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2.De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3.Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4.Com pletely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5.Leaning towards Agnosticism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6.De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7.Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
Dawkins argues that while there appear to be plenty of individuals that would place themselves as "1" due to the strictness of religious doctrine against doubt, most atheists do not consider themselves "7" because atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind. In print, Dawkins self-identified as a '6', though when interviewed by Bill Maher[3] and later by Anthony Kenny,[4] he suggested '6.9' to be more accurate."
This scale is flawed for it's use of "God" instead of "deity/deities".

"God" does not and cannot exist, because "God" is defined in logical contradictions.

If there is a deity, the Bible does not describe it.

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

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#582644
Sep 1, 2013
 
River Tam wrote:
I don't like these movies. Ip Man was a great Master but Wing Chun was designed for women. It was to keep men from beating us up. It's about balance and defense. It's a way of life. It's not a movie. That being said:
That was a fuckincool clip.
The movies give people a reason to investigate.

I am not opposed to seeing more women in them.

:)

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#582645
Sep 1, 2013
 

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scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
It's difficult for the theist to separate belief from non belief.
They take non belief to mean an active belief there are not deities.
Sometimes I just like beating my head against a wall. It makes me forget about what I'm going to deal with later today.

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#582646
Sep 1, 2013
 

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Here For Now wrote:
<quoted text>
I would not call someone a pervert because they were gay. Neither would I wish someone dead or piss on their grave.
When you think about all the things that are said against Christians, what ever has been said against Gays in here is not any wore or maybe even not as bad as what has been said about our Lord and savior or/and Christians. What about that?? Or is trash talk against Christ and Christians ok but a no no only if the subject is gays??
I do not believe Chris hates Gays. He certainly would not have shared what he has with us. I said before and will say it again. There are gay haters out there and they are not Christians either. It is unreasonable to blame Christians for all that you think is bad. To do so is just a person using it to justify not liking Christians.
christianity is a Failed moral philosophy

I despise the effects that filthy system has had upon it's followers.

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#582647
Sep 1, 2013
 
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>I read further and I have to respectfully disagree with the author and that particular viewpoint...well, not entirely anyways because I can, in some ways, understand why Atheists are frustrated when trying to explain their views. But one can't get around the fact of "lack of evidence" supposedly... helps to shape their beliefs either way. A belief that a deity doesn't exist is still a belief. I could say, I have a lack of belief in Hermes all day but still yet... I believe hermes doesn't exist. It's a belief.
As far as proving anything. I can't speak for all theists but some theists, like myself, talk from a position of how can anyone believe, when following it to it's logical conclusion, that we just came out of chaos and poof!...exist? There's really nothing to prove 'cept try and explain.
A good friend of mine put it as such, and maybe this will help you.




The atheist position is not that the answer is no. It is that there is no reason to ask the question.- fukrot

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#582648
Sep 1, 2013
 
"Smith coined the term implicit atheism to refer to "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it" and explicit atheism to refer to the more common definition of conscious disbelief. Ernest Nagel contradicts Smith's definition of atheism as merely "absence of theism", acknowledging only explicit atheism as true "atheism'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not sure if I am an atheist.
I don't believe that a sky-god throws lightening from the sky, but I don't deny the existence of electricity.
I find the magic of electricity to be more divinely awesome than some boring sky god although the sky god is easier to understand.
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Do you believe in the possibility that a god created everything?
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>
I do believe in a Universal creative force, YES. I don't know what It calls itself.
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you're not a True Atheist™ At least that's part of what I read this morning on atheism.
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
If you actually intended the word "believe"; the answer is an emphatic NO!
Ben disagrees with you on that point.

Do you explicitly believe that a god or gods cannot exist at all... ever??? OR do you implicitly believe in the possibility of their existence?

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#582650
Sep 1, 2013
 

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lil whispers wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you dare play no damn games with me. I'm of higher voltage than you could ever have a nightmare over. You don't understand a lot of things and you choosen not to try to understand a lot of things. You and afew others have come in this thread and made it into you own personal play ground of mischief, hatefulness, mockery and in general a slut house. You have disrespected people that never done one damn dirty deed to not a one of you. People who been here for years with each other. You worked at destroying friendships and you certainly have not made the effort to make friend with not a one of the older ones who's been on this thread a number of years. Instead you mocked, played, entertained yourself like some two year old in a sand box. What may be silly to you others treasure dearly yet you think it is your privilege to destroy that. If you do not like religion then you need to find a place where the program you promoting fits. Damn right it not my fault it is yours and you responsible for the way you conduct yourself. Now I going to tell you straight up front stay if you want or leave if you want because I could give a rats azz what you think of me but you can bet your sweet panties I gonna keep you on the line when it comes to the posters that been here for years.So you best watch how you choose to abuse them.
It's your religion, dear. It's not mine.

Right now you seem to be confused about what it means. I could be wrong about that because it's not my religion.

You tell me.

Or we could just hug.

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