“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552087 Jun 27, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Humanism has enjoyed one victory after another at the church's expense since the invention of the modern secular state in 1776. Later, we banned slavery despite biblical support for it, then the ban on interracial marriage, then the ban on abortion, and most recently, the ban on same sex marriage. The church also tried to interfere with divorce rights and the right to access to contraceptives, but they were defeated there as well.
This issue may be next - church's role in politics and tax exemprtions. It's a hot topic in my local freethinkers group, and it's one that David Silverman (president of American Atheists) and the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) frequently address. This battle will also be waged in the courts:
"FFRF sues IRS over preferential treatment of churches "
http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/16419...
"FFRF Sues the IRS to Enforce 501(c)(3) Electioneering Restrictions"
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/11/ff...
"American Atheists is Suing the IRS, Claiming That It Gives Preferential Treatment to Religious Groups"
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/...
It isn't just atheists. Many Christians and their Churches are pushing for change in their churches as well.

IMHO the only ones who are resisting the changes are the money and power hungry leaders of the Churches and the ignorant masses of "fundamentalists". If only we had let the Southern Sates go their merry way 150 years ago, we northerners would be much farther along in the struggle for human dignity for all.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#552088 Jun 27, 2013
AnnieJ wrote:
Marriage does not in this country depend on a religious ceremony. If churches are forced to perform any marriage then we have in a sense said...marriages are sanctioned by the Christian God. If a gay couple wants a religious ceremony sanctioned by the Christian God then there are many churches that are willing to do so.
Agree.

Marriage is entirely a legal arrangement - a contract - for managing various sexual, paternal and financial matters. Marriage defines the privileges and responsibilities that the law grants married couples by virtue of their legal union and has nothing to do with gods or angels. It has to do with visitation rights in ICUs, marital benefits for the spouses of employees, tax filing status, inheritance issues, and the like.

None of those legal matters is church business, which is why the church has nothing to do with marriage. Sure, a priest can be officiating, but he is empowered to represent the state, not his church or bible, and he is nothing more than an optional decoration like the wedding cake and the tuxedos.
AnnieJ wrote:
Why would someone want to be married in a church that condemns not only their marriage but their whole existence?
Agree again. Isn't that like a black person trying to get married at a Klan rally?

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#552089 Jun 27, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Personal observation and experience.
It is not a bad thing. Even tobacco addicts often employ 'substitution methodologies" to quit smoking.
While some use the "one addiction for another" as an insult, I do not.
Imagine if one could substitute heroin addiction with caffeine addiction. Would that be so bad ?
But, because the most common "treatment" for alcoholism and drug addiction is "spiritual" group therapy it has become a target here.
Would they rather be married to an abusive drunkard or a harmless "Jesus freak" ?
I'll take the latter.
.. thanks ..

.. recovery is probably possible because of the blend of many factors including group therapy and a self-improvement program. My hat is off to people like Grace and yourself who have made it ..

.. when does treatment for your medical condition start ??..

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552090 Jun 27, 2013
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
only if she was doing sloppy seconds after the disciple whom he loved best.
IMEO, Mary Magdalene WAS 'the disciple that Jesus loved". Of course no Christian in 1700 would even consider that! The Pope said so !

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552091 Jun 27, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
..... churches that sink millions of tax-free dollars into political causes like opposing gay marriage, reversing Roe -vs- Wade or trying to teach Intelligent Design as a scientific theory in schools, must be exposed for the political groups that they are .....
They are supposed to lose their NPO status for lobbying.

However, like most other NPO's they find massive loopholes to buy off politicians. The loopholes remain by BUYING POLITICIANS.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#552092 Jun 27, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
appy Lesbo wrote:seriously, if Grace conquered drug addiction by turning to God, why is that a problem ??..
<quoted text>
.. addicts like Grace practice their beliefs in a group setting or in private. I cannot understand the "you swapped one addiction for another" argument. Why do you think it's true ??..
.. as long as religion does no harm, IMO everyone is entitled to their personal belief system. I believe my daughter is the most beautiful little girl in the whole wide world. Am I correct? Perhaps not but my belief hurts nobody ..
.. if Epi wants to post a 'Thought of the Day,' a prayer and a quote, who does it hurt? The evil in Arahamic religions lies in the, "I'm right, you're wrong," concept grounded in personal interpretation of the bible. This is ego, not spirituality ..
.. you can't develop wisdom with a closed mind. I know a master when I hear or read one - there's an awareness, a serenity, a compassion and an acceptance that is impossible to fake. I want what these people have ..
EVERYONE!

This is the genius of our resident lesbian.

...who is happy.

Hats off to you, HL. Luv u

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#552093 Jun 27, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
You expect everyone to adhere to your narrow 9and sometimes invented) definitions.
Good luck with that.
"Disown" any Jews lately ?
I don't expect you to do anything, I'm simply voicing my opinion.
Mark

Hedel, Netherlands

#552094 Jun 27, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
appy Lesbo wrote:seriously, if Grace conquered drug addiction by turning to God, why is that a problem ??..
<quoted text>
.. addicts like Grace practice their beliefs in a group setting or in private. I cannot understand the "you swapped one addiction for another" argument. Why do you think it's true ??..
.. as long as religion does no harm, IMO everyone is entitled to their personal belief system. I believe my daughter is the most beautiful little girl in the whole wide world. Am I correct? Perhaps not but my belief hurts nobody ..
.. if Epi wants to post a 'Thought of the Day,' a prayer and a quote, who does it hurt? The evil in Arahamic religions lies in the, "I'm right, you're wrong," concept grounded in personal interpretation of the bible. This is ego, not spirituality ..
.. you can't develop wisdom with a closed mind. I know a master when I hear or read one - there's an awareness, a serenity, a compassion and an acceptance that is impossible to fake. I want what these people have ..
The evil lies in not only in the "I am right, you are wrong". As we all have an ego, it is natural for everyone to see their own point of view as right. From a higher self this may be foolish but that does not change our nature.

It is rather that ideology like Abrahamism is denying this, and presents shared viewpoints as an objective right, higher than peoples personal viewpoints, giving them the self-proclaimed right to push this opinion on others.

Islamic and Christian churches use any means possible, when they operate abroad they will bribe but also kill people if necessary. Here they are more careful and their efforts take the form of advanced sales techniques.

There is something deeply cynical about using the despair and suffering of people and turning it into walking commercials. You can even wonder if the mind fuck they are so cunningly using is ethically better then the sword. If you convert someone with the sword, he may budge but in his mind he will stay true to himself. But if you manipulate people you can make them betray themselves.

The same we see with paedophiles. Children who are raped by a paedophile undergo a traumatic experience but like any other traumatic experience this can heal. But people who have been groomed by paedophiles until they voluntarily give in to their wants are deeply damaged. They can not simply put the blame on the paedophile, knowing they collaborated.

People like Grace and Epi may be simple-minded people by themselves, they are used to target people who are emotionally vulnerable. They seek these people out. They are made to believe they are spreading the Love of God and everything they do is covered with religious idiom, to prevent the believers form seeing what they are really doing. It is evil done with so much intelligence it transcends normal evil. It is devious, perfidious. Nothing is more perfidious than the use the goodness in people for an evil cause.

I know of a nice woman who had several operations for cancer. This upsets peoples lives and she came into contact with these kind of religious predators. They invited her to talk about it, share experiences etc. On the surface all very nice, but they have another hidden goal and that is to convert people and make them part of their organisation. She has now become very active and in turn is using her disease to connect to others to pull them into the organisation. The relations with her own family have deteriorated because of this, they do not want to be pulled into this. They are keeping their distance.

This is something we often see, with these religious groups, it can harm even destroy family relations. Emotional manipulation has always been an important part of Christianity. And everything is done for the highest goal. This high goal thinking is in itself, the most dangerous thinking. It always leads to: "The end justifies the means", The higher the end the more dirty the means justified.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#552095 Jun 27, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you allow churches that deny marriage to black people to keep their tax-exempt status?
Yes. They should be allowed a choice.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#552096 Jun 27, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
The law is coming.
They have recently lost a few civil cases where churches refused to marry black members.
Can my Church perform human sacrifices ?
Even if the individual (offering) wants to ?
Isn't it our religious freedom to do so ?
It is even written my religions holy book!
If not then you must be persecuting me.
All hail the Great Quetzalcoatl !
There is nothing in the bible that would allow us to perform a human sacrifice, dude.

If you curtail choice, you curtail freedom.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552097 Jun 27, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. thanks ..
.. recovery is probably possible because of the blend of many factors including group therapy and a self-improvement program. My hat is off to people like Grace and yourself who have made it ..
.. when does treatment for your medical condition start ??..
I start in August. Earlier if I my eyes start to yellow.
Trying to enjoy the summer but have been struggling a bit.
Getting my affairs in order just in case it doesn't work.

What color scarf goes with orange skin ? <smile>.
Mark

Hedel, Netherlands

#552098 Jun 27, 2013
Rider on the Storm wrote:
My statement that God, religion, the bible has saved many lives is true whether or not there is a God or not.
What gave you this idea?

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#552099 Jun 27, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. many believers on this thread will object to this post but if they use logic, they'll understand why churches must be treated like any other non-profit entity ..
.. you see, churches which are for-profit (and many are), will be subject to audit, made accountable, weeded out. What's left will be churches that actually do good works; are charitable and benefit the community by volunteering their time, resources and energy during tragic times ..
.. churches that sink millions of tax-free dollars into political causes like opposing gay marriage, reversing Roe -vs- Wade or trying to teach Intelligent Design as a scientific theory in schools, must be exposed for the political groups that they are ..
.. as the years tick by, you've witnessed the difference between posters like Lawess, Trifecta and Clearwater as opposed to Epi, Sereh or Lil Whiskers. There are moral and immoral Christians on this thread and they're being ferreted out ..
I agree with you, HL.

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

#552100 Jun 27, 2013
AnnieJ wrote:
There is another reason...
Marriage does not in this country depend on a religious ceremony.
If churches are forced to perform any marriage then we have in a sense said...marriages are sanctioned by the Christian God.
If a gay couple wants a religious ceremony sanctioned by the Christian God then there are many churches that are willing to do so.
Why would someone want to be married in a church that condemns not only their marriage but their whole existence?
It's very much a hypothetical scenario. There wouldn't be enough pressure on the government to push for it, and I don't think it's legal anyways. As far as I know, churches are allowed to be as exclusive as they want, for anything they do.

It would be better if the government wasn't involved in marriage at all, but they are, and that isn't going to change any time soon. It would be better if churches had to qualify for tax exempt status on an individual basis, but that isn't going to change any time soon. It would be nice if either the IRS would enforce their rules when churches don't follow them, or if churches would just follow the rules, but I don't see that changing either.

Separation of church and state is a fine idea in theory. I just think we need a little more practice.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552101 Jun 27, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
EVERYONE!
This is the genius of our resident lesbian.
...who is happy.
Hats off to you, HL. Luv u
Thanks RR !

This attaboy wipes out all your previous ohshits.

<dumps the chess pieces on into the box>

Care to start over ?

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552102 Jun 27, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing in the bible that would allow us to perform a human sacrifice, dude.
If you curtail choice, you curtail freedom.
I Wasn't talking about the Bible.

There are other religions besides Christianity that have the same rights.

Here is the Holy Book of one of them:

http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christens...

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552105 Jun 27, 2013
Perhaps it would be better if religion was like sex.

Performed in private with consenting adults.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#552108 Jun 27, 2013
Dr Shrink wrote:
<quoted text>
also rent room and establish own sex church,
only you are excluded because your balls are dead,full of prostate seeds-called peronies-end is 90% up like old man cane top
everyday your insanity drive you crazy
It is my insanity that keeps me sane.

I thought you, of all people, understood that. <smile>

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#552109 Jun 27, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. why should the marketing of any philosophy be subsidized? This includes everything from atheism to Scientology to Mormonism. Why is the sale of DVDs, books and audios tax-exempt? How can profit-making organizations compete? None of it makes sense to me. Satellite broadcasting? The Romans would have loved it ..
It shouldn't. It's the act of buying political clout.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#552110 Jun 27, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>No, I mean you idiots can't figure out that a legal execution cannot be defined as murder.
I consider it murder.

What do you think of it when it turns out an innocent person is executed?

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