Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#534429 May 15, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
Would you have wanted to be a pre-programmed robot?
Free-will does come with a cost, absolutely. But without it, life would be meaningless
What would love mean if not your choice?
Hi

It would mean we would love your god more than anything else - which appears to be what he wants anyway.
Skombolis wrote:
What would any emotion or experience mean if not made of your own free will? What would be married or being friends or caring about people mean if it wasn't your real feelings?
It wouldn't mean much but then we'd be none the wiser and untold millions of human deaths would have been averted.
Skombolis wrote:
And yes to have genuine experiences made of our own free will means people can choose to do bad things as well. That's the cost of mental freedom
It does. However a god who punishes people for lack of faith rather than doing bad things seems somewhat debauched. A god who judges people on how they live their lives is far more palatable.
Skombolis wrote:
As to the rest I can simply give you my opinion as to why God doesn't intervene every time. Every action has consequences. Every action has meanings. Some good, some bad. I believe this life is a test. God provides us a life and a life-sustaining environment. He created us with the intellect to flourish and the natural resources to survive. he gives us tools and guidance and teaches us the right way to live. But then it is up to us.


You're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I'm not sure that the bible is a good template for the right way to live. I prefer the humanist approach.
Skombolis wrote:
If God just intervened every time not only it would render free will meaningless but it would rigg the whole system.
Rigging the system? Isn't that what God did when he set Adam and Eve up to fail by letting Satan into the Garden of Eden?

Anyway, what harm is there in God sending a minor seizure to the child killer to save the child?
Skombolis wrote:
There are places where God will never allow sin or crime or corruption. But that is not in this life. But think about what you are suggesting. That man by himself is so immoral and so evil that it is irresponsible for a loving God not intervene millions of times a day to prevent man from hurting others. Does that sound to you like a species that deserves that kind of protection?
If I've got you right here, you're saying that Heaven will be free of sin, crime, etc. I guess another notable absentee will be free will.
Skombolis wrote:
It isn't that God doesn't care imo but I believe the system has to work this way. We have to have free will. Because at the end of all of this we will stand before God and be held accountable. And isn't that the fairest thing? That people actually must take responsibility for the way they lived their life and the choices they made? Yes there will be some suffering in this life. But that is a drop in the bucket of time when talking about eternity. It really isn't a lot to ask of us and nothing that wasn't done for us.
Yet what's to stop people from sinning against God when they're in Heaven? After a few billion years of praising him and singing hosannahs, people are going to get restless.
Skombolis wrote:
Sure it would be great if everything was perfect all the time in this life and the next. But this life determines the next and without free-will, it would be meaningless
JMO
(T) Peace
So, will we have free will in the next life? Will we have the freedom to curse God and sin? Without it, as you say, it would be meaningless.

“BE BRAVE ENOUGH ”

Since: Oct 09

TO STEP IN MUD PUDDLES

#534430 May 15, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>Exactly. That why you don't see much sites with all this writings from atheists denying other gods, but you will find a lot of sites where atheists constantly argue against the Christian God. And that is a giant red clue to the Christian that atheists argue against the Christians God so much, because they desperately can't stand the thought that the Christian God exist. So the Christian won't deny the Christians God, but the atheist can't stand to think that the Christian believe in the Christian God.
And the more these atheists argue against the Christian God, the more the Christian know they obsessed with the Christian God and can't let go. So they Christian torture and torment them with the Christian God, and they can't let go of it because they can't stand to think the Christian believe in their God. LOL.
That what make them so hilarious. And they can't do anything about it, even though is mostly repeat stuff going on. Fascinating to watch them!
You seem not to understand why the Christian god is spoke of most often...it is rather logical if one stops to think.

In the US about 65% claim some affilitation with Christianity...either present or past. In the US we are most affected by the religion of Christianity.

If we were 65% Hindu...then we would be discussing the Hindu gods and goddesses. Since Hinduism accounts for only about .5% of the US population it has relatively little affect on our citizens nor on our government.

I find it rather naive for someone not to understand why non-Christians would address a subject that has and still does have such an influence on the attitudes and behaviors of so many citizens of this country. Those attitudes and behaviors have affected the quality of life of those citizens...good or bad.

Christianity and the Christian god has played a role in all of our lives...since that is true...we have the not only the right but the responsibility to discuss a subject that affects how we think...how we live...and the government of the US citizens.

Now...if Hinduism was at around 65% of the population and Christians were at .5%...then I am sure that Christians would be discussing Hinduism at its affects on their lives.

I spoke specifically of US citizens but since the US plays such a significant role in the world...it would also apply to the citizens of this world.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534431 May 15, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Have I mentioned that I have given up on about half of America? I got a fair amount of feedback about those recommendations, generally of two types: people with thoughtful comments about things like lobbying, public financing of campaigns, and politicians profiteering, and those who only comment on the gun restriction provision. They want their guns, and that is about their whole thinking process. I don't have much to say to those people.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Oh I mentioned more than just the guns, if you remember. I also talked trash about your "no illegal drugs" law.
That right. You wanted to keep guns legal and drugs illegal.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
And I also made a comment that if you outlawed guns and make all drugs legal then the drug addicts and drug dealers will have guns and no one else will. Is that what you really want? Or did you see it another way?
I see it another way, but we don't really need to rehash this.

My alternate constitution was a blueprint for a better country. I don't expect Americans to be able to do any of those things. The value of the exercise was in recognizing the problems. I certainly don't expect it to give up its guns, for example.

The practical value there is to focus on adapting to what America is. Continually thinking that you can fix these problems by voting for the right candidate is naive and maladaptive. Your kids won't have it as well as you did, nor their kids as well as them. Expect erosion of your wealth and your rights to continue.

If that's OK, you're in like flint. Just sit tight.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#534432 May 15, 2013
Khatru wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi
It would mean we would love your god more than anything else - which appears to be what he wants anyway.
<quoted text>
It wouldn't mean much but then we'd be none the wiser and untold millions of human deaths would have been averted.
<quoted text>
It does. However a god who punishes people for lack of faith rather than doing bad things seems somewhat debauched. A god who judges people on how they live their lives is far more palatable.
<quoted text>
You're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I'm not sure that the bible is a good template for the right way to live. I prefer the humanist approach.
<quoted text>
Rigging the system? Isn't that what God did when he set Adam and Eve up to fail by letting Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Anyway, what harm is there in God sending a minor seizure to the child killer to save the child?
<quoted text>
If I've got you right here, you're saying that Heaven will be free of sin, crime, etc. I guess another notable absentee will be free will.
<quoted text>
Yet what's to stop people from sinning against God when they're in Heaven? After a few billion years of praising him and singing hosannahs, people are going to get restless.
<quoted text>
So, will we have free will in the next life? Will we have the freedom to curse God and sin? Without it, as you say, it would be meaningless.
Hey

I have been enjoying our exchanges, you ask interesting questions

On my phone I can't separate paragraphs or quotes or copy and paste and I am walking out the door for work. But I am only working a half day. When I get back I will come back to this as there is too many worthwhile points to address and I need time to do it.

Talk to ya soon

(T) Peace

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#534433 May 15, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I feel like I have glossed over this part
Let me just say I personally haven't seen people attribute terrible things to God and claim that. At least not things like you were saying like someone being sexually assaulted. I don't know a single believer that would think someone being raped was God's plan instead of the result of man having free-will
I realize some people believe every single act that takes place anywhere is part of God's plan. I am not one of those people. At least if the explanation is man not having free-will. I believe everything happens because we have free-will and it was God's plan to give us free-will and the autonomy to make our own choices
So if somehow there are believers that would say, well God's plan was for that girl to get raped so later she would help other rape victims or something bizarre like that, no I don't subscribe to that belief. I do believe often life is a test of endurance and temptation and we are to lean on God for help and guidance and when we overcome difficulties it makes us stronger for the experience. But there is a difference between finding the silver lining and claiming God wanted something terrible to happen just to get a certain result. There are much easier ways he could have gone about it if that was the case.
And yes God does move in mysterious ways. But that is because man does not have the mind to fully understand God. But God gave us free-will. That is part of his plan. The responsibility for the choices we make due to that freedom falls on us
(T) Peace
I'm not sure if you're missing the point I was saying.

Ask many a Christian why their god allowed the Holocaust to happen and the answer you'll get will often be something along the lines of....

"I don't know why God allowed the Holocaust to take place but he must have had his reasons".

Or you may get something like... "God is great, God is good - who are we to say what God wants?"

The point is that Christians will often claim they know God, as well as what his plans are for humanity. Words they use when describing God and his plans include: Good, just, loving, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.

In other words, Christians are defining the actions of their god by using their logic and morality and their understanding of those ethics.

But that's only when the going is good.

When something bad (like the Holocaust) happens. Christians will side-step the issue by saying "God has his reasons" or "Who are we to understand God?"

Pigeon Chess

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534434 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
your "American churches are highly political" comments. They're retarded.
That was your comment, Rain Man, not mine. I seldom talk about churches in the brick and mortar sense - i.e., individual congregations.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
I just got done telling you that out of all the churches I've been to, NOT ONE of them ever got political
You wouldn't want me categorize the whole church based on a few anecdotes from you, would you? You used to be against that kind of thing.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
you STILL refuse to budge on your assumption.
You mean your assumption. As straightforward as it was, you apparently still have no idea what I said. And you never will until you learn what I mean by "the church."

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#534435 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Peter DID choose, scar. You're missing that.
Jesus simply knew what he was going to choose.
I heard that Jesus chose peter. Is that true? It is a choice, right?

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#534436 May 15, 2013
LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text> Good evening Khatru. no sir/mam, it should be no problem whatsoever, even if you don't know what is correct or incorrect on a doctrinal level given the many interpretations from different Christian denominations, you should know within yourself that you do have a freewill to chose or reject, God will guide a true honest and sincere heart in HIS truth and will lead you to where the truth is being preached in it's fullness.
IF you ARE sincere about wanting to know these things and you honestly want to be saved..........then pray, and God WILL steer you right. Peace.
Hi

Sorry, I can't pray because I'm not going to be dishonest with myself.

I need to believe in a god before that can happen and so far I see nothing that's going to convince me of that.

Maybe I should read my way through the numerous holy books there are that men claim were inspired by the creator of the universe. Once I've done that I can make a balanced and objective decision as to which religion to follow.

However, I fear that I lack the intestinal fortitude.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534437 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
You said to ME that my "worst problem is lobbying". You literally wrote: "Your worst problem is lobbying." Cut. Print. How am I supposed to take that?

Do I need to assume your generalizing or do I need to assume your speaking about me personally? If you can't be clear, don't blame me for it.
Yeah, I can blame you for that. You're deliberately being dead weight.

But I don't mind. Some people would consider a discussion like this one a waste of time, but I enjoy it and think I learn from it. You people are very interesting.

Who else can I interact with in detail for months about these kinds of issues in this manner? Nobody, that's who. No meat space relationship could survive this type of discussion long enough for the things I see here to emerge.

You guys are my best look at the Christian mind up close and in detail. I see you react to thousands of comments. I see what kinds of answers you give, and how you respond. You (collective) are where my many of my insights on this topic come from.
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534438 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, damn it. I'm folically challenged and sensitive!
LOL
I'm gettin there myself.
I'm starting to get that horseshoe pattern.
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534439 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
I dunno... Ask them. Ask Catcher, he's the one saying God is a sunuvabitch because He didn't stop the holocaust.
Funny how he (and many others) do that but never thank God for good stuff....
I don't know, but I think it's because by blaming God for human atrocities (blaming Him in that He could've stopped them) they alleviate us humans from our evil deeds.
Oh what the heck!
Let's blame it all on Eve.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#534440 May 15, 2013
Khatru wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not sure if you're missing the point I was saying.
Ask many a Christian why their god allowed the Holocaust to happen and the answer you'll get will often be something along the lines of....
"I don't know why God allowed the Holocaust to take place but he must have had his reasons".
Or you may get something like... "God is great, God is good - who are we to say what God wants?"
The point is that Christians will often claim they know God, as well as what his plans are for humanity. Words they use when describing God and his plans include: Good, just, loving, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.
In other words, Christians are defining the actions of their god by using their logic and morality and their understanding of those ethics.
But that's only when the going is good.
When something bad (like the Holocaust) happens. Christians will side-step the issue by saying "God has his reasons" or "Who are we to understand God?"
Pigeon Chess
I understand your point and know i acknowledged it happens and gave an example like "the woman being raped so later she would help other rape victims was part of God's plan". I didn't deny this ever happens. But i think it is way less frequently than you think and i don't don't subscribe to that type of thinking. God allows man to have free will and therefore man is responsible for his own actions. People aren't raped or murdered imo as part of a hidden plan, they are raped and murdered because man has free will and does some evil stuff. But at the end of the day, I don't think anybody really wants it any different. See my comparisons of free will to freedom of speech. And free-will is way, way more importany yet we wouldn't sacrifice our 1st ammendment rights over any one situation. Neither would anyone want to imo over free-will. Or even if they do, which I wouldn't agree with, it doesn't change the fact that man is responsible for his own sins and they happen because he chose to sin. If it was part of a greater plan then the person would have had no free will but to rape. But that isn't to say with God something good at least can't come out of it. But God didn't make someone rape someoneelse
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534441 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
But shouldn't God intervene on some of the more evil posts?
>:)
Nah...The bible god created evil. He even said so.

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#534442 May 15, 2013
Truths wrote:
Heaven is sin free- GOD's rules~
A heart that has not accepted Christ and repented for their own personal sins- is a soul STILL in sin-
Christians can not rewrite the Bible to make heaven available to non believing loved ones and friends- We believe the entire Bible as His truth and will not pick and choose parts to throw out~
Hi

You're one of those believers who look for literal truths rather than those hidden abstract truths that other believers seek?

According to Job, the devil was in Heaven when God called him there. That certainly looks like sin in Heaven to me.
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534443 May 15, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>Exactly. That why you don't see much sites with all this writings from atheists denying other gods, but you will find a lot of sites where atheists constantly argue against the Christian God. And that is a giant red clue to the Christian that atheists argue against the Christians God so much, because they desperately can't stand the thought that the Christian God exist. So the Christian won't deny the Christians God, but the atheist can't stand to think that the Christian believe in the Christian God.
And the more these atheists argue against the Christian God, the more the Christian know they obsessed with the Christian God and can't let go. So they Christian torture and torment them with the Christian God, and they can't let go of it because they can't stand to think the Christian believe in their God. LOL.
That what make them so hilarious. And they can't do anything about it, even though is mostly repeat stuff going on. Fascinating to watch them!
No tri, the atheists don't believe in any type of god. The reason that they focus on the one that christians worship is because of that torment and gnashing of teeth propaganda spewed out by christians.

No other belief system does that, afaik.
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534444 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahahaha! You're so right.
Just for shits and giggles, google "Zeus isn't real", "Odin isn't real" and "God isn't real"....
You'll be astonished at the vast number of atheist website dedicated to proving God isn't real...
Hilarious.
I don't believe Zeus is real. You know how much time I've spent proving to people the he isn't?
Zero.
Zeus is Yhwh.
You betta repent.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534445 May 15, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
I understand in actuality you wouldnt blame a diety you dont believe exists.
No you don't.

You were agreeing with RiversideRedneck when he said the opposite. Were you lying then, or are you lying now. Probably both.
Skombolis wrote:
I think you have to give us the same latitude if you want to have hypothetical debates. And in this particular debate you are blaming God.
LOL.

< jots down note and taps glass again >
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534446 May 15, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>Bingo! There is no way they would be here everyday arguing against the Christian God if they don't believe He exist. No one do that.
There is no such thing as a christian god. The christians stole the Hebrew one and then are trying to pass it as their own.

Kleptomaniacs (sp.?), I say!
high end

Lansdowne, PA

#534447 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, for the life of me I can't find any public thread with SO many posts about the non-existence of leprechauns.
Imagine that.
That's because you're not Irish. You have to be Irish to experience them.
Y'know, something like christians experiencing Jesus.

“I.Spirit.Son.God”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#534448 May 15, 2013
I understand just fine and your argument is way off. I think you're naive if you really believe Christians here think all these atheists and unbelievers that writing so much claiming the Christian God is a myth, that Christians really think atheists or unbelievers believe the Christian God is a myth. That not make no sense. People don't invest all that writing arguing against a negative. Set up a billboard and title it [prove god don't exist] and see how much writings you get oy!lol!
[QUOTE who="AnnieJ"]<quo ted text>
You seem not to understand why the Christian god is spoke of most often...it is rather logical if one stops to think.
In the US about 65% claim some affilitation with Christianity...either present or past. In the US we are most affected by the religion of Christianity.
If we were 65% Hindu...then we would be discussing the Hindu gods and goddesses. Since Hinduism accounts for only about .5% of the US population it has relatively little affect on our citizens nor on our government.
I find it rather naive for someone not to understand why non-Christians would address a subject that has and still does have such an influence on the attitudes and behaviors of so many citizens of this country. Those attitudes and behaviors have affected the quality of life of those citizens...good or bad.
Christianity and the Christian god has played a role in all of our lives...since that is true...we have the not only the right but the responsibility to discuss a subject that affects how we think...how we live...and the government of the US citizens.
Now...if Hinduism was at around 65% of the population and Christians were at .5%...then I am sure that Christians would be discussing Hinduism at its affects on their lives.
I spoke specifically of US citizens but since the US plays such a significant role in the world...it would also apply to the citizens of this world.
Why the Citizens of the World? You forgetting about Islam? That why your argument is naive. Islam is 23% of the world's population, Christianity is about 33%

In Russia the Muslim population is almost 30%. Actually the Christian population in the U.S is higher than 65%, but I going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So then just on this billboard alone is over 500,000 writings, so lets just say half is claiming the Christian God do not exist, so that 250,000.

Since the muslim population in Russia is almost 30%, find a forum in Russia or Europe with say 100,000 writings where atheists or unbelievers are claiming the God of Islam does not exist.

Just like Christians have influence in the U.S, Islam have big influence in Russia and Europe. Russia fight a war with Muslims. So then you should be have any problems finding a forum in europe or russia with at least 100,000 writings from atheists and non believers in Islam writing that the God of Islam is a myth.

Europe has lots of internet forums as well, but I no think you going to find it.

Because atheists don't fear the God of Islam like they fear the Christian God Yeshua. Atheists don't argue against Islam so much, because they don't believe the God of Islam is a threat to them. They argue against the Christian God, because the Christian God Yeshua is the biggest threat to they soul, because they think the Christian God real. And that goes for [you], as well writer.

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