“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#534334 May 15, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
The same goes a thousand-fold for free-will. There is nothing worth the trade-off of mankind having no free will and no freedom of personal thought.
But I never said that within your myth man had no free will at all.

Only that, free will was negated at times(even though I think an argument could be made that the inability to avoid sin might very well negate all free will in the mythic story).

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#534335 May 15, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
Instead of blaming God (in these hypothetical debates) for not intervening and stopping man from doing bad things, your issue should be with the man who does bad things.
That truly is the literal position of the atheist.

The questions posed by the atheist to the theist regarding the deity you worship are based in your religious mythology stories and deity attributes within that story.
Skombolis wrote:
The solution isn't to strip away our very identities so as robots no terrible sins can be committed.
Isn't that the eventuality you look forward to in your "heaven"? I dunno, there are differing views within Christianity concerning that.
Skombolis wrote:
The solution is to try to make this world a better place where people abide by the greatest commandments such as love your neighbor as thyself
Sure, as in:

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius 500 BCE.

“Jesus is coming soon”

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#534336 May 15, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>Show me thousands of writings on the internet by Christians denying the existence of those gods. As usual all you have your word, which means nothing.
Ain't THAT the truth?!

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#534337 May 15, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
You are all over the place and I am not understanding why as I posed a very simple and straight-forward hypothtical
There doesn't even need to be a religious component involved since my post simply stated if man had no free-will then people like stalin and Hitler would be innocent
Why they would have no free-will isn't even important to that point. The point is someone without free-will is not responsible for their actions. There is no "conjecture" about it.
If someone doesn't act voluntarily of their own mind then they aren't responsible for their actions
Whether man can sin or what my religious beliefs are have nothing to do with it
I will start again, please try to stay focused on what I am saying and presume it is based on all sorts of other components not included
If man doesn't have free-will...
(and i don't mean what degree of free-will do people think we have based on our choices being limited to our environment or any other factor)
...then he can't be considered responsible for his actions. If you believe otherwise, that someone with no free-will is still responsible for their crimes, explain to why you think that
Sure, lets remove any deity/religious connotations.

What you pose is still conjecture. Where your situation enters into conjecture, begins with the assumption that if people had no free will, we'd be aware of that. Then you leap to automatic innocence because the assumption is made we'd think, if "Billy" murdered a person:

"Eh, Billy has no free will, he's innocent".
<nods from the people at the murder scene>
"By gum he's right, we ain't got no dang ole' free will, get outta here, Billy, hit ain't yore fault"

So...

There are people in our society, who are insane, psychopaths, sociopaths, mentally deficient or inferior, etc..., who have committed crimes, and it's easy to see we hold them responsible. Even if they aren't aware of what they did.

Do we withhold the death penalty in some instances? Certainly.

Do we separate them from society? Yes, we hold them responsible.

Okay, I don't think if all people had no free will, we'd even know that we had no free will(conjecture of my own, but logical). We wouldn't even know what free will was if we didn't have it, and further, we'd have to know we lacked free will to feel as if we aren't responsible.

However, we do know that when we identify a person who is inescapably compelled, that cannot exert free will to stop doing whatever crimes, or single crime they commit.

We hold them responsible, because we do understand what free will is.

Even when, and especially so, we determine that free will-less person lacks that(free will) and commits a crime, we act accordingly.You know, Arsonists and others might be exemplary citizens, they don't jaywalk, shoplift, break speed limits etc...

But when it comes to arson, for instance, they cannot choose to not commit a crime. In those cases we don't say they are innocent. Because they aren't. They committed a crime. Even though they lacked the free will to not set fire to a building.

Even for those people who are completely unaware of what they did.

We... hold them responsible.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#534338 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you mean "There is no god or deity to intervene, IMO"?
No, there is no unbiased or non-special pleading evidence of existence for any of the human imagined deities - unless you happen to be aware of the type of evidence I mentioned above - then present it.

If someone were to assert unicorns existed, I'd respond much the same, you see, I'm an aunicornist, too.

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#534339 May 15, 2013
LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text> You wouldn't know foolish until you go back and examine your life and read your own posts, and even then it'll likely take God to open your mind so that you may see yourself manifested.
No, no, no.

It's the flying spaghetti monster!

“squuuze me”

Since: Feb 09

Florida, USA

#534340 May 15, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. that reminds me of my four-month arsenic attempt. When RR was finally on his deathbed, I decided to bake his favorite snack - soft dough chocolate-chip raisin cookies ..
.. he was upstairs, in bed, taking his final breaths when he smelled the cookies and somehow managed to get down to the kitchen ..
RR: OH !! sweetheart, you baked my favorite snack!
HL: Don't you dare touch the cookies!
RR: Why not?
HL: They're for your funeral tomorrow.
RR: Why are you so mean?
HL: We'll discuss that in a few days.
.. RR doesn't remember anything. Dr. IANS said he was delirious ..
<< HU laughs >>
<< HL reaches for another can of Drano & squeezes more oranges >>

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534341 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
It isn't very patriotic to have a "God bless Iraq" bumper sticker. Did you have one?
I'm not interested in patriotism. I was interested in people. And I'm an atheist. I don't ask any god to bless anyone. Plus, I wouldn't put a bumper sticker on my car.

I was equally interested in the well-being of both the Americans and the Iraqis other than Hussein in Iraq. They were all pawns, and I expressed that often. My solution for both was to not invade Iraq, and once that had occurred, to end the war.

And that's the point. We should care about people. You got diverted from that when you chose patriotism/nationalism over humanism.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534342 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
My heart goes out to those people, I'm glad America went in and removed their tyrannical dictators.
Hussein was murdering his own citizens, IANS. Do you understand that?
How many times do I need to address the same point, Helen? Once again,

"I saw thousands of those bumper stickers exhorting the god to bless America, but not one asking it to protect innocent Iraqis. And I learned something from that. I think it's obvious. Christians didn't care about the Iraqis. Keep in mind that these are the same Iraqi citizens that many of you refer to when trying to justify the military action, which we will hear saved those people from a cruel despot. I think you posted that recently yourself. The implication was that you care about those people. But not enough to ask your god to bless them from harm - just enough to bomb them and their families into freedom. Who do you think you're kidding about your sentiments?"

So how do you respond? Exactly as described. I guess I need to say it again: Who do you think you're kidding? You're just not credible. What do you think that people who genuinely cared about the Iraqi people - perhaps an Iraqi-American with loved ones living in Iraq - were thinking about? Just the troops?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534343 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
I spoke with an Iraqi-American just a few months ago. He was so very proud and thankful to what America did for his homeland. He was nearly in tears when he was telling me of the first time he voted. He was finally proud to call Iraq his home.
Weren't you chiding me for making a comment about Christians considering Bush anointed because I linked you to a few opinions supporting that? You admonished me for generalizing based on that, which was incorrect - I had heard and read many things supporting that viewpoint over the years, and provided you with examples. You know one person and think the Iraqis are tickled with Americans because he could vote. I'll bet he wasn't maimed and didn't lose his family.

Talk to a few like that.

An anecdote comforts you to ignore the damage that your government did. Fine. But don't expect me to believe that you cared about those people.

If you're such a people person who is willing to spill American blood and waste its treasure freeing the downtrodden victims of dictators, why aren't you advising America to invade another such country?

I know why even if you don't: you don't care about those people enough to spend that much for them. Neither do I. The difference is that you pretend that you do to justify your government's cruel, senseless, illegal and very costly war. After all, you're patriotic!

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#534344 May 15, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>Show me thousands of writings on the internet by Christians denying the existence of those gods. As usual all you have your word, which means nothing.
http://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php...

Done!

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#534345 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh. It's your educated mind that makes you spend countless hours debating a god you don't believe in and a book you believe is myth?
Odd...
Yeah, I used to debate the "2012'er End 0 the Worlders"(thats really fizzled out), too, more so than here. That included the "Quantum woo" crowd, the "NDE'ers" and others.

I debate many things that are foolish or without verifiable evidence.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#534346 May 15, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Curious. What do you mean free will is limited?
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534347 May 15, 2013
Here For Now wrote:
since you say otherwise Skombolis is moping the floor with you.
Typical.

I criticize your church, you take it personally, and try to strike out at me personally. You people have very little character. You don't have much reserve, You decompensate over nothing.

I am so used to this that I just don't care to even try not to offend you. It's impossible if I criticize what you consider sacred. So who cares what you consider sacred, ro how you'll respond to criticism of it?

If you can't take the heat, maybe you should be in places where only Christians go, like church. This isn't such a place.

Incidentally, the Dimwit can mope all he likes.

“I.Spirit.Son.God”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#534348 May 15, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
done? lol.

https://www.google.com/

That's all you did.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#534349 May 15, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
It is often difficult to tell when someone is joking or serious here.
Text is a poor medium for conveying intent and emotion.
Agreed. It's difficult to convey vocal inflection with text.

That's why RR doesn't text people, only phone calls.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#534350 May 15, 2013
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. that reminds me of my four-month arsenic attempt. When RR was finally on his deathbed, I decided to bake his favorite snack - soft dough chocolate-chip raisin cookies ..
.. he was upstairs, in bed, taking his final breaths when he smelled the cookies and somehow managed to get down to the kitchen ..
RR: OH !! sweetheart, you baked my favorite snack!
HL: Don't you dare touch the cookies!
RR: Why not?
HL: They're for your funeral tomorrow.
RR: Why are you so mean?
HL: We'll discuss that in a few days.
.. RR doesn't remember anything. Dr. IANS said he was delirious ..
<< HU laughs >>
<< HL reaches for another can of Drano & squeezes more oranges >>
Ahahahahahaaaaa!!

You are such a dork.

HL: They're for your funeral tomorrow.

RR: Why are you so mean?

HL: We'll discuss that in a few days.

My fav part ;)

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#534351 May 15, 2013
scaritual wrote:
Then later, one of the disciples told someone what they'd seen, that it was true as could be, and that the Jesus! even prophesied what that disciple would do one night... and the person listening said;
"Bull fuggin sh!t"
Is there still free will there? For who?
Of course there's free will. Just because Jesus knew what Peter was gonna do does not imply that Peter had no choice in what he was gonna do.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#534352 May 15, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>done? lol.
https://www.google.com/
That's all you did.
You're a moron.

The Vatican archives contain hundreds of thousands of documents about other religion's deities.

Go play with the other children now, grown ups are trying to have a real conversation here.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#534353 May 15, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Do you have a point other than that you long for the days when only Christians had a voice?

Do you have a point other than that you long for the days when only Christians had a voice? You don't like to hear from us, do you? And you are outraged that we are not enamored of your filthy little religion, and that we dare to say so. Get used to it....
Here For Now wrote:
DO YOU long for the day when ONLY Atheist HAVE A VOICE?(LOL)
You don’t like to hear from us do you? And you are outraged that we are not enamored by your filthy behavior and lack of morals, and that we say so. Get use to it.

See how that works?
No, I don't. I see what you did, but I don't see what you mean by "works." It's bizarre. When did atheists ever have the only voice? When did Christians finally get a voice? When did atheists begin acting with outrage that there was now a conversation instead of a monologue?

My comment reflect the histories of our two traditions. Yours reflects the emptiness of your thinking that you think that you can reflect any argument back however detached from reality it is and call it working.
Here For Now wrote:
You are a small percent that happens to have a big mouth.
Actually, my mouth and voice are just now approaching the size of the two millennia old Christian mouth. And that's what irks you, which was my point. You want us to be quiet.

No.

Like I said, if the voice of contradiction offends you, don't hang out where open discussion is permitted. Bible study and church teas would be a better venue for you to express yourself if all you want is to agreed with.

You don't respect my opinions. Too bad. The feeling is mutual:

"I don't respect your beliefs and I don't care if you're offended." – Pat Condell

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