Why Should Jesus Love Me?

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#491177 Feb 20, 2013
Qu_innocence wrote:
We have better statistics here in the U.S. because gays are more open about their sexual habits. And no matter who tries to dismiss it as homophobia... the facts, the CDC...
The CDC says that HIV is twice as high in blacks as any other race.

So by your logic, most gays are black therefore blacks must be twice as hated by God.

You are making a case for the KKK, Quin.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/ba...

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#491178 Feb 20, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Never before has such an important point of mine been so utterly misunderstood and mis-stated. You left out the context and constraint within which people are able to make choices. Let's take another look at what I wrote, since you missed the nuanced meaning:
<quoted text>
So no, I did not have a choice to become an atheist or disbelieve in your particular deity. I am the product of my life. My personal journey through development, education and an ongoing battle with maturity led me to the atheist position I hold.
We cannot separate "I" from "everything that has happened to 'I' from birth through development to adulthood."
You were encultured to be a Christian. For all kinds of reasons, you were unable to not be a Christian. Had you a different upbringing, you'd be a different person. Choice has nothing to do with your Christianity - you only have the illusion of choice.
Some of the atheists here grew up in Christian cultures, like you. They tacitly perform Christian culture, though they reject Christianity and its belief system. However, their maturation brought them into contact with ways of thinking that they could not ignore - you can.
I don't believe for a second that you could just choose to be an atheist - you value the spiritual experiences you've had through your faith and, for you, they reinforce your subjective reality.
Unlike you, I'm incapable of experiencing your subjective reality with such naivety. Oh, I can share in the spiritual experiences you have - or in Buddhism, or whatever - but unlike you, I understand how those experiences are shaped by the social, made real by social and cultural forces and produced in and by physical, material brains and bodies.
Free will doesn't exist; you have the illusion of choice. But the chooser - you - is the product of the cumulative myriad bits of your past.
It seems like you're under the impression that both Christianity & Atheism are forced onto people.

You chose to be an atheist & you keep choosing to be an atheist every day.

I chose to be Christian & I keep choosing that every day.

Unless you think we were "born that way"....

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#491179 Feb 20, 2013
One Third of all HIV cases are NOT related to homosexual activities according to the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/ba...

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491180 Feb 20, 2013
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Right, they believe and find their worth and humanistic values in the non-existence of God which they have yet to prove doesn't exist.
Since they can't prove God's non-existence... they have faith that He doesn't exist.
worth + ship = worship
Atheists believe in the non-existence of deities. To position atheism as not believing in your particular deity is to privilege your deity over everyone else's. Sorry, but we don't privilege anyone's deities - none of them exist. If you believed in Zeus, I'd be telling you that Zeus doesn't exist. It doesn't matter to me which particular pantheon you subscribe to - whichever it is, I don't, and I "believe" it to not exist.

Likewise, you don't "believe" in other religion's deities or mythologies.

But it's a weak "believe." We don't specifically go out of our way to not believe in any particular deity. I don't spend, say, an hour on Vishnu thinking very strongly that Vishnu doesn't exist and then move on to my house kamisama (that also doesn't exist, though it protects the house).

In fact, I only call my position one of belief because I cannot absolutely rule out the existence of deities. There is no test I can perform that would prove deities don't exist. However, that doesn't mean that they do - it's very easy to test this idea. Both of us also don't believe in mythical creatures like unicorns or dragons while simultaneously being unable to prove they don't exist.

Unlike you, my belief is an evidence based one. From the sciences, we can rule most mythologies as nonsense. They make all kinds of silly claims that are demonstrably false, based on the evidence we have amassed (i.e., lightning is not the product of Zeus; people are not brought back from the dead; water doesn't turn into wine). From the social sciences, we can demonstrate the social power religions have, the spiritual experiences they confer and the central importance in people's lives - while also showing that all religions perform such actions.

In fact, from a believer's point of view, their religion is real and all other ones are not. But religions are mutually incompatible. There can be no Muslim God while there are also Shinto gods, etc. So the beliefs of the religious are in conflict with each other over the particular realities described by their religion.

You, for example, live in a "Created," orderly universe. Things happen in your life that are the product of your deity. Likewise, Buddhists achieve a Buddhist reality and experience, for ex., the hands of the Buddha when performing a ritual. Each of your realities is mutually exclusive, yet the each exist for believer as lived, perceived and experienced realities.

Religions are social constructs. They are made real through enculturation (training the body and brain to interpret everything through a worldview/culture/religion), performance, practice.

We can continue - people are the product of evolution; we're social creatures. The social has ever played a strong force in human evolution. I argue that humans are adapted to perceive shared belief systems as real; we ignore evidence that lies outside our believe system unless we are trained not to. The ability to have religious belief is adaptive in that it allows people to engage in larger-than-kin social cohesion. It's a complex argument and you don't "believe" in biological science, so there's not much point in spelling it out atm.

The main point is that my absence of belief in deities is evidence-based, while your belief in a particular deity is encultured and therefore non-evidence based, apart from the misunderstanding, shared by all religious believers, that personal experiences constitutes objective evidence.

:)
:)
:)

(the end)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491181 Feb 20, 2013
@ Skombolis - this is what I meant when I wrote "meticulous is a defining feature of IANS, allowing few to argue against him." You can see how he's able to demonstrate the development of your thought processes here (created by the engagement and the generative nature of writing).
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't owe me one.
<quoted text>
I don't recall that, but if true, then you did better than most of your peers.
<quoted text>
Here are all the facts. It's long and a little tedious, but if you want the facts, here they are:
Dim has called me a liar claiming that I have reversed myself about the possibility of the existence of creator gods based on a misunderstanding of what the word "nope" was denying. This saga begins at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE... :
Dim wrote: "This is the first time I have ever seen you say you allow for the possibility there is a creator god but you would need proof."
IANS corrected: "No. I would need evidence best accounted for by the an intelligent designer."
On the very next post at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE... we read this:
Dim wrote: "I understand you would require proof. I don't as faith is enough for me.(T) Peace"
IANS wrote: "Evidence, not proof."
A few posts later at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE... this:
Dim wrote: "you need to believe you are the highest form of life and intelligence and in control of everything unless someone can conclusively prove to you otherwise?"
IANS wrote: "Why do you post that? How many times have I contradicted it?" [followed by two examples correcting "proof" and trying to restore concepts like evidence and probability, something apparently too nuanced for him to wrap his head around]
Soon thereafter comes this at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE...
Dim wrote: "Of that we can not prove."
IANS: "You need to lose that word for two reasons: First, the right phrase is "compelling evidence," not "proof." Very little is provable."
Then this at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE...
Dim wrote: "And yet it can't prove that."
IANS replied "Prove? Can't we make even a little progress?"
Now let's reconsider this comment at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE... that Dim keeps using as evidence that I am a liar:
Dim wrote: "You also said you don't rule out the possibility of a creator god (but would require proof)"
IANS responded: "Nope. I'm not going to continue to correct you any more."
And now Dim is calling me a liar based on my "Nope," which he insists was a denial of the possibility of a creator god after admitting of the possibility, something I never did.
After I denied his claim, he posted, "Since that is exactly what he had said in a prior post and then denied it how is that not a lie?" at http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...
Now you know. I have been patient with him and explained myself repeatedly until I realized that he was unteachable. And he has slandered me for my efforts. Dim is out of line. Will you stand up and say so again? Will any Christian?
Let me emphasize again that I am not so much in need of apologies as I am interested in commenting on Christian values in practice. I hear so much about how they appear on paper, but what I experience in life is radically different, and my purpose is illuminating that discrepancy. Dim is an idiot and a slanderer,and the Christian community complacently condones it despite my exhortations for them to take a stand.

“Runner John Green disqualified”

Since: Aug 12

4 Bible Scripture on headband

#491182 Feb 20, 2013
@ HFY

Just a question as this isn't the first or 2nd time.. but how long will you continue to use Projection? It's a form of hidden anger and they don't hide at all too well. Here's what you had said recently in some of your posts. I don't mind having a civil discussion on our differences... but personally I think it's a bit childish when you say things such as:

1. "I honestly don't expect you to understand what I'm writing."

2. "The problem here is that you do not understand what HIV is."

That's why I ignore a couple of the folks on here unless I'm bored... it's not worth the effort and digital space to even deal with them. Just a head's up.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491183 Feb 20, 2013
Epiphany2 wrote:
<quoted text>
You remind me of Dr. Temperance Brennen on "Bones"
Do you talk like her also?
:-)
I'm unfamiliar with "Bones." Sorry :(

“Runner John Green disqualified”

Since: Aug 12

4 Bible Scripture on headband

#491184 Feb 20, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
The CDC says that HIV is twice as high in blacks as any other race.
So by your logic, most gays are black therefore blacks must be twice as hated by God.
You are making a case for the KKK, Quin.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/ba...
Gay blacks... yes it's true.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#491185 Feb 20, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
it no matter to me what you think of the scriptures.
Then why cite them to me?
trifecta1 wrote:
So that verse in luke can apply to a person hundreds of different ways.
That is, your bible can be taken hundreds of ways, but at face values is not one of them. Is that what you mean by discernment?
trifecta1 wrote:
In Hindu culture women can get burned or ostracized by they family for embracing another faith, especially Christianity. So in that case Jesus would say cast your family or life away, I Jesus Christ and eternal life is a much greater valuable prize.
Hindu culture? In every culture - yours, too.

It says to hate them - not disagree with them, not ignore them, and not leave them, but to hate them.

And it doesn't say anything about family needing to do anything to be hated, does it? I suspect that merely being an unbeliever is enough.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#491186 Feb 20, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed.
Bible God is as 'evil' as 'good'.
I don't see it as that even. How much worse would the universe be if Satan ruled it? The bible god is just about as evil as it can be. Did you see this? http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...

“Runner John Green disqualified”

Since: Aug 12

4 Bible Scripture on headband

#491187 Feb 20, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Sorry, but we don't privilege anyone's deities - none of them exist.
2. In fact, I only call my position one of belief because I cannot absolutely rule out the existence of deities.
3. Unlike you, my belief is an evidence based one.
4. You, for example, live in a "Created," orderly universe. Things happen in your life that are the product of your deity.
5. The main point is that my absence of belief in deities is evidence-based, while your belief in a particular deity is encultured and therefore non-evidence based
I just snipped to get some snippets... It appears that you are contradicting yourself in 1, 2 and 5 above. You either believe they may exist or you don't.

In number 3 above...my physical evidence is creation and the orderly universe itself which The Creator created.

Number 4 is partially correct... God created the universe but he didn't create the fallen world. In Genesis, when God created and made everything... He saw to it that it was good, not evil.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491188 Feb 20, 2013
trifecta1 wrote:
<quoted text>Actually I was into buddhism, so this "encultured" to be a Christian, I no know what you talking about. You must mean enculturated. that must mean just going to church and playing religion.
And I know a lot of hindus and muslims raised/enculturated to be hindus and muslims that are not Christians, but now follow Jesus Christ and still taking full part in they culture. So what you say about enculturated is not the full reality.
People turn and choose to be atheists everyday. You just say in this writings some of the atheists on here reject Christianity and chose atheism. so you contradict you writings in the same writing..wow.
The last writings you say choice exist, now in this writings you say choice is an illusion. you lurching from left to right with you writings.
The reason why you can't experience subjectively the Spirit of YHWH through Jesus Christ, is because you reject Jesus Christ. God is not going to give you such a treasure without you sincerely asking.
YHWH no owe you anything. YHWH not begging you to embrace Jesus Christ. You talking like you is a prize to YHWH God; me laughing!
You talking about experiences shaped by culture and physical forces material body and all that. A everyday experience with Jesus Christ go way beyond no emotion or feeling. an unbeliever can go inside a church service and share the spiritual experience of the Jesus followers. The meditation aspect of buddhism and the sensory mental experience of it is quite spiritual.
But those experiences are fleeting. Is not the same as a all powerful Spiritual Entity directing your life, yet still giving you complete autonomy. That is the definition of All Powerful, that is the Holy Spirit.
1. What does "into" Buddhism mean? You'll forgive me, but I find Western concepts of Buddhism to be a bit silly compared to what I witness here in Japan. I have two Buddhist monk friends - close friends - who each have their own temple.

It kind of suggests to me that you were raised in a Christian culture and thought Buddhism was really cool before finally settling on Christianity.

2. By encultured, I mean "brain development happened in culture X." Most of the atheists here are encultured to Christian culture. How they understand the world is deeply influenced by Christianity and the history of the West's engagement with Christianity. For example, almost all the atheists here see sexuality as homo/hetero, with a slight nod to bi. The ways of interacting between the genders, thinking about sex, having Christian themes prevalent in your media, etc - atheists who grew up in Christian culture understand all the imagery, themes and tacitly produce many of the mores and values.

Japanese atheists are very different than Western ones. The concept of sin is non-existent here. Things that you take for granted as normal, like something as simple as your swear words "God damnit" to common sense is done very differently. Buddhists don't debate, for example - but debate is central to Christianity.

3. The reason I don't subjectively experience your deity is b/c your deity isn't objectively real. It's the same reason you don't subjectively experience Thor.

Sure, Thor was real to the Norse and they subjectively experienced him - but they're all gone now and no one cares. Poor Thor. Just like them, you subjectively experience your deity. Sorry, but that doesn't make your deity "the one, true god" that you "know" it to be, based on your misunderstandings about experience and evidence.

4. I have no doubt that the spiritual experiences of any belief system are profound. They're evolved to be, so that you can have special, non-mundane SHARED experiences with non-kin and thereby create strong social bonds.

Well done! Your adaptations work :)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491189 Feb 20, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Logically and semantically that is no different than:
They believe and find their worth and humanistic values in the existence of God which they have yet to prove exists.
Since they can't prove God's existence... they have faith that He exists.
It's a Mexican Stand-off. Always has been.
I think the evidence from the social sciences, history and the study of religion skews it to the atheist position.

(But of course I'm going to write that)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491190 Feb 20, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Porsche...
Ferrari!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491191 Feb 20, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Yes, I remember reading that somewhere.
Was that intended for me? I'm getting some strange replies today.
Hello RR! I'm making you a sammich!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491192 Feb 20, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Well none of that is even in the Bible so it isn't even supposed to be believed by believers. <smile>
"Curiouser and curiouser.", said Alice.
What??? The Fall isn't in the Bible?!?

“Runner John Green disqualified”

Since: Aug 12

4 Bible Scripture on headband

#491193 Feb 20, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
One Third of all HIV cases are NOT related to homosexual activities according to the CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/ba...
I opened the link and the first thing that I saw was the "Transmission Category" (that is, the aids transmission)... and according to those statistics male-to-male sexual contact by far, exeeds other types of aids transmission.

Male-to-male sexual contact: 28,782
Hetero sexual contact (the next highest number): 4,416

“ Xue Rengui”

Since: Oct 09

Khitan extraordinaire

#491194 Feb 20, 2013
Qu_innocence wrote:
Once upon a time there were three Christians who went to a gay parade.
Two witnessed their way and one witnessed God's way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =AvK0RyWsjrcXX
God blessed one of them. How refreshing.
Interesting...

First, this was in Toronto, Canada has 'hate speech' laws so the guy "taking it from the Word to them" was displaying a pair, imo.

Was hard to hear some dialog of the woman, but I think she said the guy standing next to her was her husband. Just found it strange he had nothing to interject into the conversation.

But the most telling thing was the woman didn't try to substantiate her position scripturally in any way, but did admit when pressed she "stands on both the Bible and political correctness". And therein lies a dichotomy.
To the chagrin of some of the brethren, I'll just write it-

A believer shouldn't be holding their finger to the wind for the most favourable, touchy-feelly or least offensive position. Many today are doing just as this woman, putting their "politics before the Word." Who ,ultimately ,are we to be beholden to- man, or God?

I'm sure a few will take offence, sorry, call it as I see it. And if some respond don't be "offended" if I don't counter, I'm not able to "live on here" and not in the mood for a lOOooo-oooong drawn out discussion that will not result in any minds changed,only to go off on tangents.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#491195 Feb 20, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Should we be concerned that a third of the creatures that knew the god personally and what life in heaven was like opted out?
hahaha!

No kidding! Major warning bells should be going off!

When people adopt a deity to worship, they should really run some questions by the angels first:

1. So, please tell me about your former employer.
2. What was it like working with the Almighty? Did He treat you fairly?
3. What is the nature of your complaints against Him?
4. If you could name one part of your job that you would keep, what would it be?
5. What was the worst part about working for Him?
6. If you were human, would you recommend this deity over any of the others?
7. On a good day, how did He treat you?
8. How many bad days were there in a week?
9. Was He the kind of deity you could beat at billiards or were you expected to lose?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#491196 Feb 20, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
i'm willing to bet everything i am and my eternal life that i'm on the right path! what say you?:)
Bad gamble. What are the odds that there is a god that requires you to guess correctly, and that you have done that? Zero. The god you chose is impossible.

And what is the cost of that choice? In this life, it's thousands of hours wasted on prayer, church and bible study, thousands of dollars, and your one shot at an authentic existence.

And in the extremely small chance that there is an afterlife in which we shall be judged, you have no idea who will be doing the judging, by what criteria, or what is at risk. I would suspect that if one of us pays a price for our choices, it will be you for throwing away your gifts - reason and conscience - and embracing an absurd and immoral doctrine.

Perhaps you were given those gifts to seek your true creator,and instead, have chosen a doctrine that teaches you to that your flesh is defective and that you should disesteem the world. If you and the universe were my creation, I don't know how I would feel about that.

You've it all on an an impossible and absurd belief. I like my bet better. It is in concert with reality. The universe is magnificent, not garbage. Man is magnificent, not a disease. And I was born with an inclination to wonder and to think, not to stifle them both and submit to priests.

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