Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474154 Jan 2, 2013
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul is warning them that IF they turn from Grace and go back into legalism. "IF" doesnt mean I am going to, no matter how good an argument against Gods Grace may sound..I am grounded and settled in the HOPE of this Gospel.."IF" may scare a lot of people but IF you are a believer, You wont be moved. I am a believer..rooted and grounded in the hope of the Gospel of Grace.. Satan used that word when he addressed Jesus...IF you are the son of God....It surely didnt mean that He wasnt the Son of God. Someone could ask you, IF you are a Christian..yada yada..Doesnt mean you are not a Christian.. "IF" is a mighty word to be so small..I dont intend to Be moved from my hope so I dont focus on the negativity of the word IF..:)
Nobody intends to lose faith Grace

But the simply fact is some do

Just like it says in Luke, some are on the rock and for a while receive the word with joy but in times of temptation turn away

Paul was delivering this message because believers had left the faith. I am sure those believers didn't think they were going to either when they started in it. Ask any of the people on WIANLAC if they thought just as you at one point, that they would never leave the faith

Besides that isn't really relevant to the point. If you feel strong in your faith that is great. But the point is if you turn from it, you won't be saved.

And you are totally missing the point not only of our exchanges but of the Bible and of your faith in general if you think accepting a different interpretation is being moved from your faith. My God, no wonder you refuse to accept what the verses say if you think accepting a different interpretation means you are abandoning your faith.

The Bible is meant for teaching and correction Grace. You really believe accepting correction would make you an unbeliever? Who is the one really living in fear?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474155 Jan 2, 2013
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
TRYING to obey to earn salvation is glorifying yourself. You take ALL the credit just like all those that Jesus said He never knew..They tried to be saved by their WORKS, instead of by faith alone. That's why they brought up their WORKS, instead of what Jesus did for them. We obey out of LOVE....NOT because we feel that we HAVE too.. I follow and obey Jesus' teachings BCAUSE I Love Him..Not to earn anything from Him..There is a big difference in the 2 Skom. When we focus on OUR obedience..we are doomed to failure. You want to know HOW I know this??? 1 Corinthians 15:56 tells us that The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law...The more we focus on SIN..the Bigger it will become...
You didn't read anything i wrote so I will try again:

Obeying Christ is not giving glory to ourselves
.
Believing the teachings of Christ apply to us is not giving glory to ourselves

You put all this importance on the Holy Spirit, which is given to you so He can remind you of what Jesus taught us, and you don't think what Jesus taught applies to you

But that is you giving all the glory to Jesus and those that obey him are not?

That is a bizarre conclusion IMO"

And how are you obeying out of love Grace? You don't even believe the teachings you are obeying apply to you? And when you sin, which is disobeying God, does that mean then you don't love him??

Of course we SHOULD obey out of love. But that doesn't mean we don't have to. That logic doesn't even make sense. What the Bible is saying is that while obedience is required, no believer who wants to please God should consider that a burden as they should want to obey out of love anyway. But Jesus made it quite clear obedience is required. And quite frankly it is beyond ignorant to claim obeying the teaching of Jesus Christ and believing his teachings apply to us is giving glory to ourselves and not God.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474156 Jan 2, 2013
reggieboy2013 wrote:
<quoted text>
Your so-called free will would also be a work, plain and simple. It's also part of man's pride thinking he can do something to be saved from spiritual death.
Jesus clearly said many are called but few are chosen. All those for whom Christ died were all chosen to salvation from the foundation of the world, before they could do any good or evil. Like Jacob and Esau. Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Jacob was a deceiver and stole the birthrite blessing from Esau by tricking his father Isaac into believing that he was Esau. But it was all worked out by God because it was the will of God to save Jacob and pass by Esau.
So friend it is up to God who will be saved, not man deciding he wants to be saved. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Of course it is up to God who will be saved. And he tells us who he will save and why

You ignored all the verses presented to you and all the questions i asked of you

Why would God call those he had no intention of saving?

Why would Jesus say the ones who didn't accept the invitiation are like unbelievers when comparing the Kingdom of Heaven?

Why did Jesus say when he was lifted from the Cross he would draw ALL men to him

Why does it say in John Jesus died for the sins of ALL men?

Why does it say for God so loved the world he sent his only son to die for our sins?

Sorry my friend, I know you want to believe you were specially picked out by God before you were even born to be saved and he doomed billions of people to hell despite telling them if they come to him they will be saved but that isn't the case

Why would we witness if it was all predestination? If you skip every other question I asked, please don't skip that one. And add why would Jesus teaches at all since clearly nothing matters anyway since it was all decided a long time ago..if everything is predestination and most men were born condemned?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474158 Jan 2, 2013
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
When we focus on OUR obedience..we are doomed to failure...
That is one of the craziest thing i have ever heard. My intent is not to be disrespectful but I can't think of any way to sugar-coat that and get my point across.

The Bible says to test ourselves daily to ensure that Christ is in us

Yet in these conversations I have heard not only we don't have to repent for our sinning, not only we don't have to feel bad if we continue to sin, but it is the devil who wants us to feel bad about sinning. I have heard obeying Jesus Christ and telling others we must obey him is giving glory to ourselves while claiming the teachings of Jesus don't apply to us despite Him sending the Holy Spirit to remind us of those teachings is giving all the glory to Jesus. And now even concentrating on trying to do the will of the father dooms us to failure??

I don't even know what to say to that

This belief that man is trying to save himself because he believes Jesus when he says any that come to him will be saved or because he believes Jesus when he says to have eternal life you must obey the commandments is just mind-boggling and makes zero sense. But people just keep regurgitating it in leau of addressing scripture.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474160 Jan 2, 2013
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
AMEN~~~~ WHY are so many still NOT BELIEVING Jesus? They have more belief in their OWN Abilities to do what we havent been able to do since the Exodus from Egypt. Happy New Year Doc
Do you have some type of learning disability? How many times does it have to be said man can't save himself? And when we do the good works Christ prepared for us in advance to do it is because we are allowing him to work through us. Yet you feel you don't have to do those works even though Paul tells you that because you don't originally believe what Jesus taught applies to you

YOU are the one who believes the teachings of Jesus Christ do not apply to us. And you are claiming those that believe his teachings and believe him that they have to be obedient, which they do when they allow him to work through them, and he says do that and He promises He will save us is actually man thinking he can work his way to salvation?

“Messenger w/ a Message”

Since: Sep 07

planet earth, for now

#474161 Jan 2, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
That is because many of my statements are common knowledge among thre learned.
There are not even fragments of a single Bible document earlier than 150 AD and even that is questionable.
The majority view is that at least seven of Paul's leters are genuine. The opinion on Thomas is divided although paleopghraphy indicates that it is much earlier than Biblicl gospel.
The majority view also holds that Mark is earlier than Matthew, Matthew is earlier than Luke/Acts and that Luke/acts were written after Paul's death as well as being earlier works than John.
BTW, the destruction of the Temple is NOT an indicator of the age of a christian document. It is like saying Abraham Lincoln lived before 1812 because he doesn't mention the burning of Washington in the Gettysburg address.
Perhaps the earliest piece of (NT) Scripture surviving is a fragment of a papyrus codex containing John 18:31-33 and 37. It is called the Rylands Papyrus (P52) and dates from 130 A.D., having been found in Egypt. The Rylands Papyrus has forced the critics to place the fourth gospel back into the first century, abandoning their earlier assertion that it could not have been written then by the Apostle John.(Merrill F. Unger, Unger's Bible Handbook (Chicago: Moody Press, 1967), 892.)

(NT) added by me for clarification.

Source, author, publisher, year and page of evidence which contradicts your claim of 150 A.D. which is not substantiated.

So what about the many of your statements which are not common knowledge among the learned? Still, you and others here post things that I'm sure are copy and paste and are rarely properly annotated.

I'm just saying that you seem to post as if you are the authority and no one else has any credibility. From what I gather, there are many here who are as credible, and even more credible than you and your unnamed sources of the learned.

BTW, Happy New Year.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474163 Jan 2, 2013
reggieboy2013 wrote:
<quoted text>
The bible isn't as simplistic as you think it is. You are adding to the word of God by your statement that our actions play a factor in God's choice of who He has chosen to save.
There again , you are ignoring that man cannot work towards his salvation. The choice is God's. Otherwise God would show favoratism or have respect unto a man's work. The bible does not support that theory. No works.
I didn't add a thing

As usual in these types of conversations you ignored everything I asked and ignored all the scripture

If God wants all men to be saved and nothing we do matters on who he will save despite hundreds of verses to support that it does matter, that we must repent, have faith, obey, then please explain why all men are not saved?

Is God not capable of saving everyone even though he wants all to be saved? Please answer the question

Thank you

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#474164 Jan 2, 2013
LAWEST100 wrote:
<quoted text> Just wanted to add this scripture that is also prevalent to the discussion at hand == > >>
Show Commentary
1 Corinthians 15:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Show
Thx forat and agree with your last post as well. Rushing out the door, will catch up more later

(T) peace

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#474166 Jan 2, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Obeying isn't thinking we can do it ourselves, it is simply obeying
I don't follow how being obedient is not giving the glory to God and how not believing we have to do what he tells us is
I understand your premise that Jesus did everything for us but I simply disagree he didn't expect us to follow his teachings after the sacrifice.
Consider if you were speeding and got in a bad accident and killed someone and could be facing life in jail but the judge has mercy on you as he can see you are truly sorry and suspends your sentence and waives the jail time but tells you don't ever speed again and you happily agree. Then as you leave the court room you take off speeding again. To me that is what it is like to claim no matter how much we sin it doesn't affect our righteousness in God's eyes and to claim obedience isn't required.
Jesus didn't die on the cross so we could continue to disobey him and still sin and on top of it claim we don't have to obey him.
Doing what God tells you to do is giving the glory to God
And no we are not always going to butt heads...except maybe on this:)
(T) Peace
Hi Skom...You are correct. I just wish you wouldnt "think that we disobey" Jesus whenever, I say that We are not under the Obedience of Law. That doesnt make me go out and disobey..I actually find myself being more obedient but I realize that theonly obedience God requires of us, IS obedience to His Will, which is believing in WHO Jesus is and WHAT Jesus done. However, or arguments sake, I will give in and say..OK..Yes, we are to be obedient. I just dont believe that we can be obedient to earn salvation and keep it.thats all. God has adopted us as His Children through Jesus Christ. IF you adopted a child and that child disobeyed you, you may punish the child, but you wouldnt un-adopt him. He will still be your child..FOREVER. Lets not focus on the negative things that we are fussing over. It just isnt worth it. OK?

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#474167 Jan 2, 2013
lil whispers wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul was proud of the faith of the Christians who lived in cruel dangerous Rome.The Colosseum were there where they turned the lions on the Christians as sport for the Emperor Nero.The catacombs,dark and mysterious was the home of many of those who knew Jesus.The world came to Rome the melting pot of the Empire and before long the scttered little band of Christians strong in faith made their witness to them.As the travelers returned home to the far-flung outpost of the earth they remembered they had heard Jesus Christ is Lord!Paul writes I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you.Every one of them stood for Christ even when going down in the mouths of lions,or burned at the stake or crucified.Everyone.Your faith is spoken of thoughout the whole world.Faith that's talked about. We are not told what exactly was said;But this faith got attention.Maybe it's time for the lions and the stake again to weld us together if that's what it takes for the world to speak of our faith to talk of it through out the earth and to say I heard another say Jesus is Lord.Pauls message in Romans is The just shall live by faith.For the righteousness of God in our lives is revealed by our faith.Have you considered that the gospel of Christ is the only thing in the world founded on purely on faith.Paul tells us Faith works.
Corinth was a melting pot of the various socio-economic groups in the Roman Empire and this city was as racially divided as any of in this empire if not more.People receiving Christ don't always allow Him to raise above their social or racial prejudices.This was especially true in Corinth and became such a problem to Paul that he spent more time teaching on the Unity of Christians than in any of his other writtings.Here he beseeches the brethren invoking the Name of Jesus their newly found Lord to agree to speak the same thing and eliminate division among them to use their faith to come into such unity that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind.Isn't this our great need today.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#474168 Jan 2, 2013
lil whispers wrote:
<quoted text>
Corinth was a melting pot of the various socio-economic groups in the Roman Empire and this city was as racially divided as any of in this empire if not more.People receiving Christ don't always allow Him to raise above their social or racial prejudices.This was especially true in Corinth and became such a problem to Paul that he spent more time teaching on the Unity of Christians than in any of his other writtings.Here he beseeches the brethren invoking the Name of Jesus their newly found Lord to agree to speak the same thing and eliminate division among them to use their faith to come into such unity that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind.Isn't this our great need today.
Well I made four post of Paul and is no reason to take it any futher this is based upon what I am reading in other post.I have choosen to look for the good in Paul and all that he done for mankind.Lastly will say could one of us done his walk he made.
I think not,it is just way too easy to judge Gods work in another.

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#474169 Jan 2, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't add a thing
As usual in these types of conversations you ignored everything I asked and ignored all the scripture
If God wants all men to be saved and nothing we do matters on who he will save despite hundreds of verses to support that it does matter, that we must repent, have faith, obey, then please explain why all men are not saved?
Is God not capable of saving everyone even though he wants all to be saved? Please answer the question
Thank you
First off your foundation cornerstone is totally false, God does not want all men to be saved. He wants all His elect to be saved.He says in another way, that He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. He's speaking of His chosen [ elect ]. Christ did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him, and that He would not lose one of them, but save all His people [ sheep ].

God is certainly capable of saving the world, but He made vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath. All deserve death because we are all guilty and should receive the penalty, but God had chosen some to have mercy upon and paid for their sins by the sacrifice of His own life. If Christ died for all men without distinction, then all men would be saved. But He didn't.

Finally, man's will or desire, has absolutely NO bearing on whether or not God will save him. The choice is GOD'S not man's.

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#474170 Jan 2, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it is up to God who will be saved. And he tells us who he will save and why
Why would God call those he had no intention of saving?
You're right. He did tell us who would be saved and why,
All that the Father gives to Me SHALL come to me... John 6:37
Many are called BUT few are chosen [Those that were given to Christ ]Those that are called or invited won't come, because no man seeks God [Romans 3:11 ], therefore only the chosen are left to save. Simple isn't it?
Hard to swallow that God will have mercy on whom He chooses and leaves the rest to live out their time and in the end perish ?
A test of man's pride.
Learn the basics first, no more confusing the issues.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#474171 Jan 2, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have some type of learning disability? How many times does it have to be said man can't save himself? And when we do the good works Christ prepared for us in advance to do it is because we are allowing him to work through us. Yet you feel you don't have to do those works even though Paul tells you that because you don't originally believe what Jesus taught applies to you
YOU are the one who believes the teachings of Jesus Christ do not apply to us. And you are claiming those that believe his teachings and believe him that they have to be obedient, which they do when they allow him to work through them, and he says do that and He promises He will save us is actually man thinking he can work his way to salvation?
YOU cant seem to take the FOCUS off YOURSELF and WHAT YOU are doing all the time. You Keep harping on obeying the teachings of Jesus, Yet, you dont even understand WHAT kind of obedience GOD was refering to. Yes, You believe IN Jesus and His teaching, but DO you BELIEVE WHAT He accomplished for YOU? The obedience from the HEART Skom..Do you understand WHAT that is? You dont seem to grasp nor understand WHAT His death AND burial AND ressurection was all about. Read up on how HE Justified YOU...How HE made YOU righteous in the eyes of God AND HOW He is Sanctifying YOU...Well He did BUT YOU have to RECEIVE those gifts THROUGH Obedience OF FAITH..YOU ..Then we can talk more. I lived the Christian Life that you are preaching and that kind of belief may seem right to a mere human..Gods thoughts and ways are NOT our thoughts OR ways. If it means that we had to forsake all the religious teaching that we have been taught from the pulpit all our lives to learn the TRUTH then thats what we should do..If you dont see that the bible seems to be a bit contradictive, you are confused..God doesnt contradict His own words, so why is there a sudden change in the scriptures? Looking into those things will open your eyes and allow you to come to the same conclusion that most Christians who understand Grace..has finally found...JESUS PAID IT ALL FOR US..Jesus + nothing = EVERYTHING..Isnt Jesus enough for you?

“squuuze me”

Since: Feb 09

Florida, USA

#474172 Jan 2, 2013
reggieboy2013 wrote:
<quoted text>
First off your foundation cornerstone is totally false, God does not want all men to be saved. He wants all His elect to be saved.He says in another way, that He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. He's speaking of His chosen [ elect ]. Christ did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him, and that He would not lose one of them, but save all His people [ sheep ].
God is certainly capable of saving the world, but He made vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath. All deserve death because we are all guilty and should receive the penalty, but God had chosen some to have mercy upon and paid for their sins by the sacrifice of His own life. If Christ died for all men without distinction, then all men would be saved. But He didn't.
Finally, man's will or desire, has absolutely NO bearing on whether or not God will save him. The choice is GOD'S not man's.
So some He means to save while the rest are fodder for the wolves ...I sure am glad I don't follow that God.

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#474173 Jan 2, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Which ones would that be ?
the Gospel Paul preached is the Holy scriptures. Christ by His spirit opened up the scriptures to Paul, which really was the old testament scriptures, plus direct revelation from God , which God is no longer doing once the bible was completed.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#474174 Jan 2, 2013
sanctify

late 14c., seintefie "to consecrate," from O.Fr. saintifier (12c.), "to make holy," from sanctus "holy" (see saint)+ root of facere "to make" (see factitious). Form altered to conform with Latin. Meaning "to render holy"


sanc·ti·fy/&#712;sæ&#3 31;k&#8201;t&#601; &#716;fa&#618;/ Show Spelled [sangk-tuh-fahy] Show IPA
verb (used with object), sanc·ti·fied, sanc·ti·fy·ing.
1. to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate.

Hebrews 2:11..For both HE (Jesus) that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified ( Believers)are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Hebrews 10:10..By this Will( Gods Will) we have been "Sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ" ONCE for ALL.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Its JESUS that does the cleansing..Its Jesus that SANCTIFIES US..

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#474175 Jan 2, 2013
hick-up wrote:
<quoted text>
So some He means to save while the rest are fodder for the wolves ...I sure am glad I don't follow that God.
The truth is not always pretty. People like everything pretty and nice, like their God. They want a God who agrees with their thoughts, and overlooks their rebellion against His law, because they are nice people- He just loves them all, just the way they are, right?

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#474176 Jan 2, 2013
Justification_(theology)

www.reference.com/browse/Justification_%28the...

In Christian theology, justification is God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous before God. Justification, from the Greek &#948;&#953;&#954; &#945;&#953;&#972; &#969; (dikaio&#333;), to declare/make.

Romans 5:1..Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#474178 Jan 2, 2013
Knowing and believing that all of our sins (past, present, and future) have been completely forgiven through the blood of the Lamb is the doorway through which every child of God must walk before he can begin to truly understand the amazing grace of God. Trying to teach a Christian that he has a new identity in Christ, that the Holy Spirit now actually lives in him, and that his Heavenly Father loves and accepts him unconditionally will make little sense without him first believing that the sin issue between himself and God is over.

Perhaps no other aspect of our salvation in Christ has been so confusing, paralyzing, and even divisive within the body of Christ as the forgiveness of our sins. How tragic that one of the most glorious and foundational truths of the gospel has deteriorated into a perplexing doctrine that many Christians would prefer to argue was an incomplete work of our Savior rather than one that is actually "finished" (John 19:30).

http://www.forgivenforever.org/forgiven_forev...

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