Why Should Jesus Love Me?

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

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#465619 Oct 30, 2012
By the way Skom Good Morning to you... I had a reply written about almost an hour ago, lost it in Topix and obviously had to remember what I wrote... so pasting my reply in Word this time... Can't stay long my friend... homeschool.

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465621 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Please tell me my friend you believe he has a responsibility here to try to make right what he done.Or does he just get to say "oops" and move on?
Yes and no. If I'm not mistaken I believe Gary was tricked also. He went through that same, particular mental conditioning that those other victims had gone thru. And IMHO, thru whatever validation he needed he gave it his all and I think he genuinely believed in those dates. Now if Gary continues in selling Camping then shame on him... it would be as the Bible says (paraphrase).. "a dog returning to it's own vomit."

But I rather pray and hope that he comes out & recovers from that mess... not just him but others also.

Let me ask you this. Now this is to no one in particular. Let's say a person goes into a bar looking to hook up. They are very promisuous and eventually gets HIV but they are unaware of it. So they continue in that lifestyle and others who this person had sex with had lower immune systems so they died early or passed it on to their siblings. Eventually, they find out they have contracted the disease... Did that person have a part in the others' misfortune? Yes of course. Should they be held guilty though they did it unwittingly?

Now if they continue in that same lifestyle "knowingly" then the answer is obviously yes.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465622 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, of course. I've understood some time ago that though one repents, it does not mean that they are altogether left unpunished by God ---> Jeremiah 30:11.
Well this is about the restoration of Israel, a promise God made long ago and in which he declared in Romans that even the spiritually blind who for the time being would be considered enemies of the gospel would eventually be saved as 2Peter shows the Lord is waiting and wants all of Israel to come to repentance.

So It may simply be a middle ground for a people promised to be saved. The Lord won't condemn them but he certainly isn't going to let them sin with impunity either. For the rest of us I would think anything short of total repentance is not going to end well. JMO on that. Regardless though, we agree he would need to repent

I am going to answer some of these in separate posts

Good morning to you as well btw. I saw that in the next post:)

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465623 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Does he not owe an explanation to why he hung onto all his things while convincing others to give up all they had? This has nothing to do with forgiveness .
If this is true to a larger extent, then it certainly raises a question to his own validity and calculations. Also if true, then confessing one sins to one another and truly being sorry is part of the forgiveness/repentance process.
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text> This has nothing to do with "I told you so". Heck we knew he was wrong years ago, it is not like we had to wait till May and Oct came and went.This is about his victims.
But we also knew ahead of time that there were going to be victims.

Perhaps unknowingly, you and others helped to steer others clear before those dooms day dates. At the very least, the discourse may have helped them to prepare ahead of time, just in case.
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text> And I don't believe you get to destroy lives and expect God to believe you are sorry when you make zero effort to try to make right what you have done and that goes for Gary or anyone.
I'll just say that it best to leave vengeance to the Lord. I myself should have known that a long time ago. Other than that, warn others, help others seek forgiveness or the victims should seek civil remedies. JMO.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465624 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>Personally (and I'm sure you might agree)... I sincerely hope that Gary truly repents. God forgave me for my misdeeds, and I'm sure God has forgiven you at some point for your own misdeeds... so I hope He forgives Gary also for his misdeeds.
I agree but probably not for the reasons you might think.If Gary repents (and true repentance men effort towards amends IMO) than that is a good thing for his victims. If God decides to save him that is obviously God's call.I certainly would never question God's judgement or begrudge his decision to save Gary.Although I can say in all honestly I don't think I would shed any tears if the man never repented and from what I have seen from him he will not

This is a man he mocked the idea of needing to help others physically as well as spiritually.A man who lost no sleep over people starving to death or knowing how much good they could do simply in diverting even a small percentage of their funds for less billboards and helping people make it to the next day and not caring in the least as it would disrupt the pyramid scheme.This is a man who witnesses for self as it fed his own ego because he got off on being looked up to by people less knowledgeable and also because he felt it was proof he was saved. As time went on I became convinced he could care less about the outcome of those he witnessed to, he did it for himself. The only reason he wanted converts was because it reinforced to him his notion of his being a teacher and a prophet.

This is a man who to feed his own ego would deny a starving man food and make him wait like a dog waiting for a biscuit after performing a trick. A man who would tell a starving person they can have the uneaten portion of his lunch only after they sit through his entire sermon.A man who afterwards felt justified in never helping others again because this man become angry half-way through God only knows how long and left because apparently even being hungry was not enough for this man to pretend to swallow Gary's garbage and I say kudos for that.

This was a man with no empathy for others imo.A man who hated people quite frankly and wanted the rapture to come so his enemies and the scoffers would finally get theirs.It was his revenge fantasy. And that is the best case scenario. The worst is this was a bitter, jaded con-man who decided at some point he would profit off of those stupid enough to make the same mistakes he did. So will I shed tears if this man does not repent? No.I have found him to be one of the worst human beings i have ever come across.But if he does repent then the rules are the rules and I wouldn't presume to to try to weigh the sins of others any differently than my own. But the man repulses me morally.Not just for his sins but the decades he has been practicing them and his total lack of human emotion or concern for others makes it hard for me to feel any for him. Just being honest

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465625 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
As far as repentance is concerned, some people are great in instantly expressing what is on their hearts in very great detail, others IMHO, thru whatever their prior circumstance, experiences or upbringing aren't as quick or adept to meet others approval quick enough. But obviously God knows at what point or level when one is truly sorry for the mess they made.
I don't think time is the issue, he has had plenty.I think he simply is incapable of empathy for others. And while on some intellectual level he knows he is to pretend to care to some degree and will make a one-time allowance pride-wise to say something meaningless like he is sorry for his victims and then never talk about it again, I think he doesn't feel bad for them at all.Like he said, the blind leading the blind. Suddenly he goes from leader and teacher and prophet to just one of many who was wrong so he feels he should shoulder no responsibility for others. How convenient. But more so than getting himself of the hook, he simply doesn't care.
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously, I'm one of those who believe that there is a hell and that people can go there without genuine repentance (whether they be called a Christian or not). I don't have any desire for myself or anyone else to go to that horrible place, but according to the scriptures many will go there, it is inevitable. So forgiveness is central.
<quoted text>
I believe more towards annihilation. However I will say this, there are people who lost their lives over what he did.People who were lost and on the wrong path spiritually because of what he did.People who may not be saved for what he did. If he doesn't repent, he deserves no better fate than they received. And to my way of thinking he is extremely and I mean extremely fortunate he has the option to do so which others, thanks in part to him, do not.
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
Naturally, my friend. There are civil remedies that can be pursued by those who were perpetrated by the fraud.)
Those remedies will prove useless. The inner circle played Camping to profit but to win a lawsuit not only they would have to prove HC knew he was perpetrating a fraud and did so to profit, their would also have to be the funds to pay out the victims.I don't see how they get past the first hurdle without some sort of internal memo or confession and no reason to think that is coming.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465626 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text> If this is true to a larger extent, then it certainly raises a question to his own validity and calculations. Also if true, then confessing one sins to one another and truly being sorry is part of the forgiveness/repentance process.
My point was my desire or willingness to forgive him has nothing to do with what he is responsible for and for the actions he needs to take. Whether I forgive him or not or whether i think he should be forgiven by others or not doesn't change the fact that he needs to make amends for what he did and to repent.And he needs to do that regardless of what others think. If he is the believer he says he is
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>But we also knew ahead of time that there were going to be victims.
Of course That is what made it so frustrating.Without knowing who or having any way to reach these people, they were left at the mercy of little mini-dictators like Gary who would have them ostracized and removed from a group they had come to rely on emotionally a great deal if they expressed the tiniest bit of doubt. Nobody was getting out that was already in. It was very frustrating
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps unknowingly, you and others helped to steer others clear before those dooms day dates. At the very least, the discourse may have helped them to prepare ahead of time, just in case.
Sure one would hope that was the case but if I was a betting man my money would be probably not. We did it simply because we had no choice.You have to reach out and try to save someone who is drowning.But you can't make them grab your hand.And after a while all you can do is watch them go under for the final time.
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>I'll just say that it best to leave vengeance to the Lord. I myself should have known that a long time ago. Other than that, warn others, help others seek forgiveness or the victims should seek civil remedies. JMO.
I have no problem leaving vengeance to the Lord. For his sake he should pray his victims feels the same. But that doesn't mean I am going the other way and this man gets my sympathies either. To me he is not even remotely a decent person. But God decides the fate of others and I prefer it that way, not like i have a choice but regardless, not a burden man should want.

(T) Peace

“BE BRAVE ENOUGH ”

Since: Oct 09

TO STEP IN MUD PUDDLES

#465627 Oct 30, 2012
Epiphany2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Morning AJ.....
Yes it must be 3 AM for you....Go back and get more sleep...(If you can)
Love ya
I did...at least for a little bit.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465630 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Yes and no. If I'm not mistaken I believe Gary was tricked also. He went through that same, particular mental conditioning that those other victims had gone thru. And IMHO, thru whatever validation he needed he gave it his all and I think he genuinely believed in those dates. Now if Gary continues in selling Camping then shame on him... it would be as the Bible says (paraphrase).. "a dog returning to it's own vomit."
But he did consider selling Camping...THREE different dates spanning almost two decades. And this was a man who even if tricked was not honest about where he stood. Online he said things like "if I am wrong what's the harm?" Trust me, he NEVER said things like that on Latter Rain.It was 100% certain and anybody who didn't think so needs to leave the group because they were not committed believers. This is a man who told others give all they have and kept his own stuff. So whatever he may have believed, he lied about his conviction to protect his own neck
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me ask you this. Now this is to no one in particular. Let's say a person goes into a bar looking to hook up. They are very promisuous and eventually gets HIV but they are unaware of it. So they continue in that lifestyle and others who this person had sex with had lower immune systems so they died early or passed it on to their siblings. Eventually, they find out they have contracted the disease... Did that person have a part in the others' misfortune? Yes of course. Should they be held guilty though they did it unwittingly?
Now if they continue in that same lifestyle "knowingly" then the answer is obviously yes.
I agree but don't feel it is a fair comparison for the reasons I just gave. He knew enough to protect himself while withholding information and doubts while at the same time hammering anyone else that was hesitant to drink the kool-aide. That is just pure evil if you ask me considering the stakes

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465631 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>What is the difference between Gary and a con-man if he told them give all their money to Family Radio of which he was part of their inner circle and did not risk his own money and then when it doesn't come to pass he makes jokes about its a good thing he won't be judged by man and doesn't lift a finger to help his victims? As of right now I just see an unrepentant con-man. But regardless of what I see or don't see won't put food on the table of his victims
I believe this to be a rhetorical question so no need to answer, I'm guessing on my part. But the whole Camping thing was built on a spirit of error anyways so that will manifest itself. Concerning Gary, I don't know to what extent that is true or not.

At the end of the day, putting fury aside... I can't.. nor are you able to make him repent exactly the way you want him to. It's either judgement or mercy. It's best to pray for him and the other victims of the error while closely examining our own faults. Or something else constructive, like build a website for Camping victims or something. JMO

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465632 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Well this is about the restoration of Israel, a promise God made long ago and in which he declared in Romans that even the spiritually blind who for the time being would be considered enemies of the gospel would eventually be saved as 2Peter shows the Lord is waiting and wants all of Israel to come to repentance.
So It may simply be a middle ground for a people promised to be saved. The Lord won't condemn them but he certainly isn't going to let them sin with impunity either. For the rest of us I would think anything short of total repentance is not going to end well. JMO on that. Regardless though, we agree he would need to repent
I am going to answer some of these in separate posts
Good morning to you as well btw. I saw that in the next post:)
Jeremiah 30:11 is that and is also a truism of God throughout the scriptures. God chastens those He loves. And obviously there are consequences to are actions though we may be forgiven.

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465633 Oct 30, 2012
consequences to "our" actions though we may be forgiven.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465634 Oct 30, 2012
Edit Q

Sorry, this:

"But he did consider selling Camping"

should have read

"But he did CONTINUE selling Camping"

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465635 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Jeremiah 30:11 is that and is also a truism of God throughout the scriptures. God chastens those He loves. And obviously there are consequences to are actions though we may be forgiven.
I agree God chastens those he loves.Although a sin once repented and forgiven is forgotten forever. I am not sure I agree there are still consequences in the form of punishment from God for them. There may be real life consequences but IMO anyway I think if God forgives someone he doesn't punish them after for the forgiven sin. He may punish them for other reasons or not spare them punishment or like it says in Matthew, it rains on the just and the unjust alike. But not sure I agree there is a correlation between a forgiven sin and further punishment I just think man can't go through life unscathed as it is not possible.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#465636 Oct 30, 2012
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay...I get it now. I thought you were slamming me! Paranoid I guess.
I also agree with your thoughts on this. I have some to add but I am beyond thinking tonight...I think!
I will say this...it is easy to quote scripture...even us heathens can do that. It is much harder for people to actually say how that scripture affects their lives...what it means to them.
Good morning Annie;

No reason for the paranoia.You handed some some beautiful advise some post ago about dusting off the sandels and walking.I took that advise to heart from you as knew you were right.

Yes it is easy to quote scripture but the question is what scripture.I read the conversations on this thread and often wonder what is the heart of some of them.Would they be able to do the same walk in that person shoes and make better decisions or just sit behind a computer screen and find fault with them.It is real easy to find fault but harder to know the heart of a person.Let talk scripture.Scriptures speaker louder stonger and more truthful than all of mankind.Often when scripture is quoted it gets another to thinking about the big picture of this world and all the people in it.Often it can open the mind,heart and the eyes of others.I make no excuses what so ever for the scriptures I post here as everyone is entitled to there own opinion and beliefs.I leave that scripture to speak for itself to whoever so choose to read it.Then there are those who accuse of cherry pickin the scriptures but even that speaks louder stronger and more truthful than mankind.Then there are those who do not beleive yet even God loves them just as they are and he knows he is going to show them the a way to come to him when that happens they either partake or reject.
Judgement day will be a day as no other has every witnessed.
All I done here in this post is express my humble opinion.
Have a good day.

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465638 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree God chastens those he loves.Although a sin once repented and forgiven is forgotten forever. I am not sure I agree there are still consequences in the form of punishment from God for them. There may be real life consequences but IMO anyway I think if God forgives someone he doesn't punish them after for the forgiven sin. He may punish them for other reasons or not spare them punishment or like it says in Matthew, it rains on the just and the unjust alike. But not sure I agree there is a correlation between a forgiven sin and further punishment I just think man can't go through life unscathed as it is not possible.
Like King David for example, he was forgiven for committing adultery and having Uriah killed... but still God punished him, and yes, it was pretty severe. 2 Samuel chapter 12

“Body,Mind and Strength are HIS”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#465639 Oct 30, 2012
The Twelth Imam Will return, & YEOSHUA will be with Him, YEOSHUA Ha Moschiach will defeat the "ANTI-CHRIST" and set up the Rightfull Kingdom Of YHWH...

After OBOMA is re-elected POTUS..Russia will Attack Israel....

Then the End Of the Age will be....

"Child Of Promise!"

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465640 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
Edit Q
Sorry, this:
"But he did consider selling Camping"
should have read
"But he did CONTINUE selling Camping"
That's why I posted a suggestion yesterday to Gary to run from Camping and all that is associated with him. I hope he truly repents.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#465641 Oct 30, 2012
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>Like King David for example, he was forgiven for committing adultery and having Uriah killed... but still God punished him, and yes, it was pretty severe. 2 Samuel chapter 12
But did David really repent?

2 Samuel 12
6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."

21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought,'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.'

23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

He acknowledged he sinned against the Lord but he had no pity for what he had done. And when the child was alive he fasted and wept but his motivation was to save the child. Once the child was not saved David saw no reason to continue.That seems to me like David was sorry only to the extent that he hoped in might spare judgement. When it did not, he no longer continued to be repentant. His 'repentance' was self-serving and no true remorse imo. It is like being convicted of a crime and doing community service to convince the judge you are sorry.But when it does not mitigate the sentence the person stops doing service work as they were only doing it in hopes of reducing the punishment

Although I would have to look into some other things as well in the OT as I can't say for certain there were not cases of those being truly repentant, being forgiven, and still being punished for those sins.If there are cases of that I obviously would change my mind. This particular example though it seems like David was not truly repentant.IMO anyway

(T) Peace

“Saved. ”

Since: Aug 12

Like Ice On planet Mercury

#465642 Oct 30, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree but don't feel it is a fair comparison for the reasons I just gave. He knew enough to protect himself while withholding information and doubts while at the same time hammering anyone else that was hesitant to drink the kool-aide. That is just pure evil if you ask me considering the stakes
I used that "promisuous person" situation as an example because it's more tangible to grasp and understand... so I thought it to be a more suitable comparison because when it comes to "belief" and faith... I'm sure everyone who believes in a god or God has had their reservations or may have hesitated at some point.

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