Gunman Killed Firemen With Bushmaster...

Gunman Killed Firemen With Bushmaster, Left...

There are 65 comments on the ABC News story from Dec 25, 2012, titled Gunman Killed Firemen With Bushmaster, Left.... In it, ABC News reports that:

Firefighters were called to a house fire in Webster, N.Y. on Dec. 24, 2012, only to find a gunman.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at ABC News.

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#42 Dec 26, 2012
NOTthechildren wrote:
<quoted text>
Police and local first responders should be at least a little more aware if not armed. Especially if the scene or scnerios is unusual if for no other reason isn't that a terrorist tactic to go after the first responders after a bombing/attack?
I'd say have the police survey a fire scene since they are frequently there or first on scene.
Arming at least some of the firefighters who respond would be a good start. The police are not geared for prevention, they are reactionary and will only be involved after the fact.

The sad truth is that this kind of incident can't be prevented no matter how hard we try. The pathological mind will find a means to its end. The only thing normal sane people can do is be prepared to defend themselves and make the perpetrator dead before he can do such severe damage. It's a shame that there are whack-jobs out there who want to harm and kill innocent people and children but THEY ARE OUT THERE and THEY WILL GET WEAPONS. Those are the facts, my friend.
German guy

Munich, Germany

#43 Dec 26, 2012
Squach wrote:
<quoted text>Oh sorry, I forgot that you are living in a utopian fantasy world where violence and evil don't exist so no one needs to defend themselves.......
It's not a question of utopia: I guess I'm living in the presence and you in the past.

Well, so tell me how often you needed to defend yourself with a weapon.

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#44 Dec 26, 2012
German guy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not a question of utopia: I guess I'm living in the presence and you in the past.
Well, so tell me how often you needed to defend yourself with a weapon.
It's 2012, about to be 2013 where I live what year is it in Germany? 2020? 2025?

In answer to your question,(not counting combat when I was in the military) only once so far. Yes, shots were fired and yes, I was the better shot. I quit driving a taxi the same day. If I hadn't been armed I'd be dead. And yes, I was carrying my weapon legally. There is absolutely nothing wrong or evil about a law abiding citizen possessing the means to defend himself, his family, and his property.

Look, if you want to place your safety and your life in the hands of others who will probably not be there in that one split second when you REALLY need them that's fine by me but don't ask or expect me to do the same. I'll continue to defend and protect myself, thank you very much.

Just remember this my friend, the criminals/crazies/terrorists out there always DEPEND ON THEIR VICTIMS BEING UNARMED AND UNABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.
German guy

Ingolstadt, Germany

#45 Dec 26, 2012
Squach wrote:
<quoted text>It's 2012, about to be 2013 where I live what year is it in Germany? 2020? 2025?
In answer to your question,(not counting combat when I was in the military) only once so far. Yes, shots were fired and yes, I was the better shot. I quit driving a taxi the same day. If I hadn't been armed I'd be dead. And yes, I was carrying my weapon legally. There is absolutely nothing wrong or evil about a law abiding citizen possessing the means to defend himself, his family, and his property.
Look, if you want to place your safety and your life in the hands of others who will probably not be there in that one split second when you REALLY need them that's fine by me but don't ask or expect me to do the same. I'll continue to defend and protect myself, thank you very much.
Just remember this my friend, the criminals/crazies/terrorists out there always DEPEND ON THEIR VICTIMS BEING UNARMED AND UNABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.
O.k., that's an argument. But how often are people killed by mistake, because somebody thinks he must defend himself.
And once more: Who's got more violence: USA or Europe?

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#46 Dec 26, 2012
German guy wrote:
<quoted text>
O.k., that's an argument. But how often are people killed by mistake, because somebody thinks he must defend himself.
And once more: Who's got more violence: USA or Europe?
By mistake? Because somebody "thinks" he must defend himself? What's to mistake? If someone threatens you with a weapon.......you need to defend yourself. It's actually pretty simple. The law spells it out pretty clearly .... one is justified in using deadly force ONLY when one is threatened with deadly force. Normal, sane, law abiding people are intelligent enough to know the difference between right and wrong we don't need to be protected from ourselves.

Who has got more violence? That depends on what you consider Europe now, doesn't it? There seems to be quite a bit of violence going on in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, The IRA has been quiet for a while but they're still there, etc... I suspect that Europe has more violence than you'd care to admit. The violence in America is more publicized too. I really don't think the possession of firearms or their availability has anything to do with the violence we see. Weapons are nothing more than tools.....take away one tool and another will be found.....the violence won't miss a beat. The violence is a product of the people who perpetrate it not the tools they use and until we find a way to deal with those violent people, prevent them from harming other, and keep them from becoming violent in the first place we will never be free from the violence. I don't know what the answer is to stop the violence, I wish I did. What I do know is taking weapons out of the hands of honest law abiding people is definitely not the answer. That would leave only the government and the criminals armed. Speaking of government here's a quote from one of America's Founding Fathers;

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
That is

Cromwell, CT

#47 Dec 26, 2012
German guy wrote:
<quoted text>

Well, so tell me how often you needed to defend yourself with a weapon.
not the issue. Most of us pray we'll never need to.

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#48 Dec 27, 2012
That is wrote:
<quoted text>
not the issue. Most of us pray we'll never need to.
Excellent point. A weapon is kinda' like a life preserver.......it's better to have one and not need it than it is to need one and not have it.

Some people seem to think that because Americans have guns we walk around just looking for a reason to use them. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Sometimes just having possession of weapons is enough. Here's a quote from a Japanese Admiral during WWII:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Isoroku Yamamoto
German guy

Munich, Germany

#49 Dec 27, 2012
Squach wrote:
<quoted text>By mistake? Because somebody "thinks" he must defend himself?
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
How often does it happen, that any gunbrain shots someone in his garden who, for example, wants to visit his daughter secretly - or kids are shot while playing with a weapon lying around. That's what I meant "by mistake". Perhaps I used the wrong word.
And Thomas Jefferson is 200 years ago. Thats what I meant with "living in the past".
And you still didn't answer my question, in which mind is more violence? In the european or in the US-mind. Because this is the problem I guess. In solving our problems, violence ist the last thing in mind.
In your "troubleshooting" there's always a weapon in range. And that causes automatically more violence.
Better having no weapon and not need it than having one and regret its use afterwards.
Of course this is not YOUR fault and YOU must arrange yourself with the violence in your society - but anyone has to start the disarmament. Otherwise nothing will change with respect to less violence.
NOTthechildren

Bryn Mawr, PA

#50 Dec 27, 2012
German guy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not a question of utopia: I guess I'm living in the presence and you in the past.
Well, so tell me how often you needed to defend yourself with a weapon.
The mear PRESENCE of weapons have been preventing crime and other things for decades.

Many countries in Europe have had street police armed with machine guns and semi automatic pistols while police in the US were using single shot pistols and swat teams only had automatics. It's deterence by fear and intimidation period. It works in many cases.

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#51 Dec 27, 2012
German guy wrote:
<quoted text>
How often does it happen, that any gunbrain shots someone in his garden who, for example, wants to visit his daughter secretly - or kids are shot while playing with a weapon lying around. That's what I meant "by mistake". Perhaps I used the wrong word.
And Thomas Jefferson is 200 years ago. Thats what I meant with "living in the past".
And you still didn't answer my question, in which mind is more violence? In the european or in the US-mind. Because this is the problem I guess. In solving our problems, violence ist the last thing in mind.
In your "troubleshooting" there's always a weapon in range. And that causes automatically more violence.
Better having no weapon and not need it than having one and regret its use afterwards.
Of course this is not YOUR fault and YOU must arrange yourself with the violence in your society - but anyone has to start the disarmament. Otherwise nothing will change with respect to less violence.
Those things don't happen much. First no one shoots people just for being in the garden. What did I tell you? You are ONLY justified in using deadly force when threatened with deadly force. That's not particularly hard to understand, is it? I think normal sane people are intelligent enough to know the difference. From your posts I guess you must think that EVERYBODY is a blithering idiot. Children hurt with a weapon left lying around???????? Who the hell leaves a weapon lying around???? Only a blithering idiot. Do you leave your chainsaw lying where kids can get it? Do you leave your nail gun lying where kids can get it? Do you leave your butcher knives lying where kids can get them? A firearm is like any other power tool, you treat it with respect for its ability to hurt you and store it properly. Look, why don't you just come out and say it, YOU THINK THE EVERY HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET IS A BLITHERING IDIOT. I disagree. I think that the majority of people out there are responsible law abiding people who are more than qualified to possess and use firearms properly. There can be NO DISARMEMENT!!!! It doesn't matter what rules you make.....the bad guys don't play by the rules, they don't obey the law, they will have guns no matter what, and they will be wolves in the sheep pen with their illegal firearms among an unarmed populace. The ONLY people disarmed by law or decree are law abiding citizens, the criminals don't give a ratsass about the law and will always be armed. Violence is a last resort in the minds of all normal sane people. We don't walk around just looking for a reason to use our guns. If someone angers me, I don't immediately grab that gun that's "always within reach", why would I. You don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this subject. However if an armed person threatens me or my family, I'm very glad to have that gun within reach. Why do you assume in such an offhand way that everybody is a blithering, incompetent idiot?
If you feel that you aren't intelligent enough to be trusted with power tools and weapons then by all means don't own any but don't assume that everyone else is as incompetent as you think you are.
German guy

Munich, Germany

#52 Dec 27, 2012
Just two words: Shit happens. Anywhere and anytime.
Of course not with intention. Most accidents do not happen with intention. But shit happens.
You've been a soldier. Weapons were your job.
But you can't compare yourself with the thousands of idiots among the millons of "normal" people.
For example: Do you agree with these lots of people here in this news blog, who are sure that this guy shooting firemen did it in behalf of the government?
People with this sort of paranoia in their head are able to a lot of other things - and they are at least here on this site in the majority!
German guy

Munich, Germany

#53 Dec 27, 2012
Sorry - in the first line I wanted to write: Everywhere and always.

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#54 Dec 27, 2012
German guy wrote:
Just two words: Shit happens. Anywhere and anytime.
Of course not with intention. Most accidents do not happen with intention. But shit happens.
You've been a soldier. Weapons were your job.
But you can't compare yourself with the thousands of idiots among the millons of "normal" people.
For example: Do you agree with these lots of people here in this news blog, who are sure that this guy shooting firemen did it in behalf of the government?
People with this sort of paranoia in their head are able to a lot of other things - and they are at least here on this site in the majority!
So, because there is a minority of idiots out there the vast majority of normal sane people are to be punished and deprived of the means to defend themselves (not to mention one of our Constitutional rights)?????

Okay, there are 40 people in a class. Four of those people are idiots who disrupt the class. Ten of those people are exceptional with all A+ grades. The rest of the class is average or better and passing. Because you don't know how to stop the disruptive people, are you going to keep the whole class back and fail them? This is the same logic you are applying to guns.

Yes, I was a soldier but so were MILLIONS of other Americans. I've owned guns all of my life, many guns. I have NEVER shot anyone by accident. I have NEVER shot anyone by mistake. I have NEVER shot anyone in anger. I have NEVER threatened anyone with a gun. I have NEVER had a child pick up and play with one of my guns (and I raised 5 kids). There are literally MILLIONS of Americans who can say the same thing. Yet you would have the many punished and restricted to address the few? Why would anyone in their right mind try to hold me responsible for the acts of someone else and abrogate my rights? It doesn't make any sense, especially since it has been proven over and over that gun controls and restrictions have absolutely no affect on crime and violence. There was a total handgun ban in Washington DC, and while ban was in effect Washington DC had the highest murder by handgun rate in the country. The bad guys were the only ones with guns and they knew it, so they did whatever they wanted and nobody could stop them. The Bad guys will always have weapons and they will always depend on their victims being unarmed. No law on this planet can stop criminals from getting guns or any other weapons.
German guy

Munich, Germany

#55 Dec 27, 2012
O.k. o.k., forget it.
Possessing weapons seems to be one of your most important human rights.
Continue living in the wild west.
I give up.
But don't whine around when another asshole shots dozens of innocent children. At the end you demand arming kids ...
You're fighting evil with evil.
You really got a strange culture.
So long ...
Skeptic14

Peekskill, NY

#56 Dec 27, 2012
truth Always beats lIes23 wrote:
These "events" are being done to help the american government with its decades long goal which is to remove the right of americans to own guns.Anyone with common sense can see this.Is anyone really dumb enough to think all these "events" are happening out of the blue???
That is exactly right. Colorado witnesses said more than one person in the theater (and Holmes was plopped into his car in the same stupor he is still in); Sikh Temple witnesses said 4 white shooters; Newtown is up in the air but I have little doubt this kid was a patsy, one way or the other; and now THIS. Has anyone released the ORIGINAL 911 call - the one where this Spengler patsy supposedly called in the fire? Of course not. This is the 9/11 playbook on a smaller scale. As the Patriot Act was waiting in their back pockets, so is the gun grabbing law that will be passed by mid-January. Very obvious.
Skeptic14

Peekskill, NY

#57 Dec 27, 2012
German guy wrote:
Just two words: Shit happens. Anywhere and anytime.
Of course not with intention. Most accidents do not happen with intention. But shit happens.
You've been a soldier. Weapons were your job.
But you can't compare yourself with the thousands of idiots among the millons of "normal" people.
For example: Do you agree with these lots of people here in this news blog, who are sure that this guy shooting firemen did it in behalf of the government?
People with this sort of paranoia in their head are able to a lot of other things - and they are at least here on this site in the majority!
I think you are sadly mistaken my friend. Very few seminal events in this life happen by accident. I am afraid this is a followup to Aurora/Sikh Temple/Newtown to cement the "fear" that will lead us to the new gun-grabbing law that they ALREADY WROTE (just like the Patriot Act before 9/11). I would LOVE to see the cops release the 911 tape of the FIRST call - the one that this Spengler supposedly made to report the fire. But they won't, because it wasn't him. And this old jail-bird decided to TYPE a suicide note? And he included no motive? And he said "killing people" is what he likes to do most? He killed one old battleaxe 30 years ago - with a hammer...how the hell does he love it?

“Constitutionist/ SAF”

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#58 Dec 27, 2012
The Germans are experts on peaceful utopias. LOL !

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#59 Dec 27, 2012
German guy wrote:
O.k. o.k., forget it.
Possessing weapons seems to be one of your most important human rights.
Continue living in the wild west.
I give up.
But don't whine around when another asshole shots dozens of innocent children. At the end you demand arming kids ...
You're fighting evil with evil.
You really got a strange culture.
So long ...
I'm sorry that you can't see the light. We live in an extremely violent world. It is made violent by evil PEOPLE. Guns are neither evil or good, they are just tools. It's how PEOPLE use them that determines if the act is evil. The only way I'll be "fighting evil" is if evil comes looking to harm me. This is not the "wild west", this is the concrete jungle and there aren't any shootouts at high noon. They just shoot you in the back at night and rifle your pockets. The stereotypes that you keep referring to couldn't be further from the truth. As I do for all of us, I hope you never need to defend yourself from the evil in this world but I, for one, will stay prepared to deal with it if it comes my way. Good luck and Happy New Year, my friend.
German guy

Munich, Germany

#60 Dec 27, 2012
Tory II wrote:
The Germans are experts on peaceful utopias. LOL !
Sorry, but I'm talking about our reality.

Of course we've got crime, but less than you and without everybody armed.
German guy

Munich, Germany

#61 Dec 27, 2012
Squach wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sorry that you can't see the light. We live in an extremely violent world. It is made violent by evil PEOPLE. Guns are neither evil or good, they are just tools. It's how PEOPLE use them that determines if the act is evil. The only way I'll be "fighting evil" is if evil comes looking to harm me. This is not the "wild west", this is the concrete jungle and there aren't any shootouts at high noon. They just shoot you in the back at night and rifle your pockets. The stereotypes that you keep referring to couldn't be further from the truth. As I do for all of us, I hope you never need to defend yourself from the evil in this world but I, for one, will stay prepared to deal with it if it comes my way. Good luck and Happy New Year, my friend.
I see the same light in another direction.
If more people would act like you, I wouldn't worry.
But I fear, there are not many guys like you.

Good luck my dear friend

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