Armstrong's fall from grace may help cycling

[GeeMan]

There are 2 comments that are so misguided in all of it from those who want to thrash Armstrong.

1. Biggest drug cheat ever. Well the whole peleton openly discussed what was being used and by whom and riders were in and out of USPS sharing what went on. 1 rider was attributed to asking what is Armstrong on he is so quick and the answer was same as you mate he is just better now since coming back.

2. Biggest doping operation ever! Try Eastern Block countries who were State funded for a start and look around the world at where is likely to hide it now, Chinese girl swimmer faster than Phelps? Phelps also seriously questioned in US, Nadal has had criticism.
Doping them was in balance with the times and technology they had nowadays we are far more advanced and I would suggest doping programmes then and now would be same as looking at a computer then and now.
The world moves on and change happens.

Sensational headlines are great for a moment but living on soundbytes like Tygart did is not the mark of a man who is in the position he is.
This is not about cycling its about Lance we all know it and its personal when it should not be.

He bragged about all the scientific data and there is none other than analysis of past tests and from his come back, nothing new and I am sure if we were all in Armstrongs shoes we would say fine thats your experts opinion now how many tests did i take for you? yep 60 and did i fail any? No thats right, now here is my expert and he says your man is talking sh@t. The tests will be 2006 all over again just like I said.

It makes great convo though and I hope it heats up with senators again abou due process and sweetheart deals.

One final point that was pointed out is that USADA have never issued a 'reasoned argument' in their history before!!

[thinking free]

The jerk has taken no action to clear himself either legally or just simply contesting the results, guilty as charged.

[worker]

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

I. Told. You. So.

To El Paso and the other guy I was arguing with a few weeks back, SUCK IT!!!!

[CvilleMechEngr]

Lance Armstrong's record will stand in the collective memory until someone beats it. Until then comments will always compare outcomes to his record. You can grandly erase or keep the record granted by some organization based on whether he did or didn't dope. People will just remember that he won. We created an icon, and, right or wrong, that won't go away for a long time.

[cyclingfan]

Cycling will never be the same.

[hewasagoodcheate r]

I hope what does happen is that the average athlete or person who works out for fitness does not stop. Nor do I want the use of PEDs to disuade a novice from working out. Seniors, out of shape adults and kids can benefit from exercise. I don't want 'oh you need steroids to do that' in the back of their minds.

That's a problem with these PED users is that they taint legitimate gains from clean training. They make it harder for the average person to motivate themselves to workout along with the average athlete taking it to the next level with training and nutrition. PEDs users also reinforce the misconception that you need hard core pharmacueticals to make physical change.

Train hard, train smart, train natural, train legal.

[GeeMan]

Cyclefan it is clear from other forums that US Cycling fans were not as aware as those in Europe on the extent of doping.

Over here it is OK he got caught when's the next race?

Everyone in the Peloton was and is at it and we have just had another rider banned on EPO.

All you need to do is look at Conconi history and see which DR's were signed up to his ethos like Ferrari etc and follow them through all the Teams and you will see NONE are unaffected.

Miguel Indurain used Conconi!

Dont believe the hype which media like and USA are stunned with its is the same as it has always been a dopers domain.

Sorry for the bad news but thats just GT.

On the USADA info please note the following,

Bin all 2006 and before information as everything you read has been tested in court and labs and all passed as approved. Andreus testimony has been dismissed already as unreliable.

Hamilton, Landis and Vaughters testimony binned as serial perjureres and not reliable.
LA has a signed affadavit from Vaughters he knew nothing about doping!

Levi notary public is Hamiltons ex wife and her husband is the attorny for 2 of the other riders.
So collusion of testimony would be questioned.

All none Team riders testimony not admissable as taken as not material facts and not able to be substantiated such as 1 to 1 talks with LA.

Levi also testified he felt intimidated by LA but he still rode in the team and if his wife was in danger he would have left. he was also picked to ride when others were available, doesnt compute too well. He and others felt so intimidated the continued to dope afterwards.

This leaves 3 riders and from all the testimony Hincapie is more reliable than the rest.

Physical evidence doesnt exist and is interpretation of an expert so you get another expert to say different!

Does this mean he didnt dope..Hell NO it all happened.

Whats the issue it is the way it has been cobbaled together and presented as conclusive.

All the reasons above are the reasons that FDA dropped the Fraud case as LA would make enough of a dispute and the relationships of evidence testimony was in legal terms too close and looked like they sat together.
Read Hamiltons book for the testimony of some riders its that close.

LA will lose everything up to 8 years only.

Did he win YES because the playing field was level.

For wang & co who will say rubbish go research and then come back and tell me I am wrong and lets see who AGAIN actually knows what is going on.

LA is far from the Devil portrayed he was a pro rider who was more determined and a better rider than the others.

If you still have doubts about it look at the Festina scandal of 98 when LA was till recovering.
They had enough EPO for the whole peleton and they were not using using them for Darts.

Pro riders dont just take EPO it needs to be checked against a rider physiology and a Medical Advisor tells them how to go about it and instruct a Team Memeber how to manage and control the process.
EPO can and has caused blood clots that kill.

Skiing was the 1st sport to identify EPO as a huge factor in their athletes and banned it in 88.
In 86/87 approx. 20 rider died from EPO and were the data to help Conconi advise Ferrari etc how to administer it correctly and with less risks.

Look at Greg Lemond who in 89 was being dropped out the peloton back door and couldnt ride to save himself until Giro TT and he got an 'iron jag' and came 3rd in the TT.
He went onto the TDF as a huge outsider and expected to drop out but won after his 'iron' jags and managing to set a road TT world record in the last stage to win.

Its used in all sports.

[GeeMan]

For all the LA haters you need to give it up and if you still want to hate do it to all your US Doping Service riders and they all did it willingly and it was a culture in place well before LA got there.

You all didnt see GH and LL etc coming did you but we all knew.

[turtle]

GeeMan wrote:

For all the LA haters you need to give it up and if you still want to hate do it to all your US Doping Service riders and they all did it willingly and it was a culture in place well before LA got there.
You all didnt see GH and LL etc coming did you but we all knew.

You are truly amazing, all bow down to the incredible Geeman.
PLease stop repeating your nonsense about a level playing field. You are not an expert on the effects of epo or any other substance are you ? You do not know who did take substances and exactly when and how much do you ? You are not an expert on the physiology of all the different competitors of the time are you ? you do not know all the different competitors training regimes and how different substances could help in different areas are you ? You are not aware of how substances used together could have differing effects are you ? You do not know who bought and used the most peds is do you ? You do not know who had the best understanding and plans of how to used differing peds effectively do you ? You do not know how where and when different substances were available from do you ? You know pretty much nothing about what you are claiming to be able to state facts about do you ?
for decency and respect to the riders who did not cheat and the riders who gave up promising careers because they did not want to go down the cheating path. Which trainers like chris charmichael lead the weak and morally bankrupt individuals such as Lance Armstrong.
You need to dismount the very large hobby horse you have been riding on in your family home for the last few weeks. The repeated statements where you have been consistently wrong (like, your usada got everything from the federal case) need to be accepted and apologised for.
I look forward to hearing a much more reasoned and understanding post from you in the future. You can sometimes make some interesting and valid points. So your posts are not totally without relevance and interest. You even sometimes can make me smile, so please take a few moments before you rush in and forget yourself. Because you do show a little promise sometimes.

[GeeMan]

The difference between us is I am invested in cycling on here and other forums and I actually look into who is riding in which team and with who else and who is their DR.

People like Conconi and ferrari and desciples of them.

You should try the same and you shall see how it all falls into place.

20 out of 21 podium finishers cinvicted, admitted accused or associated dopers.

1987/88 30 cyclist and skiiers died from EPO.

Skiing banned EPO in 88 as it was endemic there.

Anything else and thats all off the cuff.

Thats why I say GO DO RESEARCH because the whole peloton has doped for day one and the record book confirms this.

You keep saying I dont know well why dont you go and siprove all of this.

Who was BigMig DR? go and look.

Who was Hinaults DR? go look.

I know that I know far more than you about cycling and if you know more put the evidence out here like I have just done and we shall see.

Go figure that out.

[My Opinion_El Paso_Texas]

worker wrote:

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
I. Told. You. So.
To El Paso and the other guy I was arguing with a few weeks back, SUCK IT!!!!

You really should learn how to read and digest the content before you go showing off your mentle personality!

[turtle]

GeeMan wrote:

The difference between us is I am invested in cycling on here and other forums and I actually look into who is riding in which team and with who else and who is their DR.
People like Conconi and ferrari and desciples of them.
You should try the same and you shall see how it all falls into place.
20 out of 21 podium finishers cinvicted, admitted accused or associated dopers.
1987/88 30 cyclist and skiiers died from EPO.
Skiing banned EPO in 88 as it was endemic there.
Anything else and thats all off the cuff.
Thats why I say GO DO RESEARCH because the whole peloton has doped for day one and the record book confirms this.
You keep saying I dont know well why dont you go and siprove all of this.
Who was BigMig DR? go and look.
Who was Hinaults DR? go look.
I know that I know far more than you about cycling and if you know more put the evidence out here like I have just done and we shall see.
Go figure that out.

You are a one, geeman. Your posts do bring a smile to me sometimes. Thats when you are not being so immature. Your presumption of others knowledge and your grandiose image of yourself are truly amazing my friend. Only seconded by your continual ignoring of whenever, you are proven or shown to have stated something incorrect.

[thinking free]

CvilleMechEngr wrote:

Lance Armstrong's record will stand in the collective memory until someone beats it. Until then comments will always compare outcomes to his record. You can grandly erase or keep the record granted by some organization based on whether he did or didn't dope. People will just remember that he won. We created an icon, and, right or wrong, that won't go away for a long time.

I beg to differ, Pete Rose fell from grace when he got found out, Penn St has been obliterated, plenty of sports stars lives and legends have gone by the wayside as a result of wrong doing, as they should.

[GeeMan]

turtle

Hollow again.

You take what days to find stuff out and only after I tell you about it but I send it back just like above.

You are hollow and make a lot of noise but no cogent comments.

You post and go and look into it so I will hear back in a day or 2 when you find something that I will no doubt have to help you with again.

[turtle]

GeeMan wrote:

turtle
Hollow again.
You take what days to find stuff out and only after I tell you about it but I send it back just like above.
You are hollow and make a lot of noise but no cogent comments.
You post and go and look into it so I will hear back in a day or 2 when you find something that I will no doubt have to help you with again.

What? do you think other people spend their lives here? or researching for here ? spending their day thinking to post back to you ? we have lives!
Some people work in the real world geeman. I am sorry my post is bringing nothing new to the party but i felt i had to reply to your repeated nonsense. Not because i am stupid and need educating by you.

[turtle]

GeeMan wrote:

turtle all I hear from you is noise.
Comments with no meaning and you give it all that and basis of fact or reasoning.
You say I post nonsense and I ask for you offer critic that stands up why and it is the same old HOLLOW.
Your posts are basically the 5th, silence.
If you have nothing to say don't post.

go back read from beginning of posts

[My Opinion_El Paso_Texas]

turtle wrote:

<quoted text>
go back read from beginning of posts

Turtle and GeeMan,

I did go back and re-read the posts as I do that often for trying to get it correct before writing here.

I would suggest that everyone try doing that and then maybe all of us can stay on topic. We don't get anything accomplished by attacking one another.

This case has been a shit hole and it's been sad that it has taken so long in having people come forward to testify and admit to their own doping. That is if it is the entire TRUTH here!

I feel that both Travis Tygart and the USADA are as dirty and incompetent as Pat McQuaid and the UCI has been in all of this.

Those guys act more and more like the Gustopo then any civilized legal system and that is what all of us should focus on as well.

So far it's always been the riders only who were getting nailed hard, while the rest who were involved in the doping skipped away FREE!

This is the first case were 11 other riders were allowed to skip away, but their cycling carreer were over anyway, so no real loss as Tygart and company got what he wanted.

Yet, did they really get everyone involved here or did they manage to allow some identified people skip away as well.

One case with one cycling team (with various names) with one small group of cycling personnel!

So, the rest of the sports here in the US just go on their merry DOPING ways and continue cheating other atheletes and their fans!

And it has begun to look like David Brailswood is the new "Lance Armstrong" of cycling there at Team Sky and Team GB!!!

During the London Olympic games I got sight of an article that caught my interest and I began a research, tracing various articles talking about the British and German training programs for their cyclists.

The IOC has had to slam both of them as they were violating the rules set in place by the IOC.

This might be an interesting topic to follow up if either of you are interested in researching it a little. All you have to do is check out the various cycling web sites and their forums.

I'm really curious to see if Gus or Chris are really interested in
current doping in cycling, especially Chris as this may be taking place in his front yard there in Bristol, England.

Cheers

[Gus]

My Opinion_El Paso_Texas wrote:

<quoted text>
Turtle and GeeMan,
I did go back and re-read the posts as I do that often for trying to get it correct before writing here.
I would suggest that everyone try doing that and then maybe all of us can stay on topic. We don't get anything accomplished by attacking one another.
This case has been a shit hole and it's been sad that it has taken so long in having people come forward to testify and admit to their own doping. That is if it is the entire TRUTH here!
I feel that both Travis Tygart and the USADA are as dirty and incompetent as Pat McQuaid and the UCI has been in all of this.
Those guys act more and more like the Gustopo then any civilized legal system and that is what all of us should focus on as well.
So far it's always been the riders only who were getting nailed hard, while the rest who were involved in the doping skipped away FREE!
This is the first case were 11 other riders were allowed to skip away, but their cycling carreer were over anyway, so no real loss as Tygart and company got what he wanted.
Yet, did they really get everyone involved here or did they manage to allow some identified people skip away as well.
One case with one cycling team (with various names) with one small group of cycling personnel!
So, the rest of the sports here in the US just go on their merry DOPING ways and continue cheating other atheletes and their fans!
And it has begun to look like David Brailswood is the new "Lance Armstrong" of cycling there at Team Sky and Team GB!!!
During the London Olympic games I got sight of an article that caught my interest and I began a research, tracing various articles talking about the British and German training programs for their cyclists.
The IOC has had to slam both of them as they were violating the rules set in place by the IOC.
This might be an interesting topic to follow up if either of you are interested in researching it a little. All you have to do is check out the various cycling web sites and their forums.
I'm really curious to see if Gus or Chris are really interested in
current doping in cycling, especially Chris as this may be taking place in his front yard there in Bristol, England.
Cheers

Harry,after all this I've pretty well lost faith in all of them but I'm still curious to hear what the IOCs response will be to USADA then will I form my final opinion,albeit I will always enjoy Bike Racing...cheers!

[Gus]

...shoulda said UCI.

[GeeMan]

El Paso good post.

Team GB and SKY are on the absolute edge of what ir right and moral and may be exposed soon by the others who dont like seeiing them basically dominate the sport.