“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#3467 Jan 20, 2013
I wonder, couldn't we basically just graft a patch? Just like they do for humans, I could cut a round outer patch from a far away and less important part of the tree and then cut it fit and somehow secure it. What you think?

I always think about these things too late. I hope I don't lose my maple tree due to the insides rotting out from the limbectomies that won't heal.

The wounds I'm talking about are low nearer the ground so if the tree rots out from there down then I lose basically the whole tree. I know a tree can grow for a heck of a long time even when hollow but I hate to take chances with a tree so valuable for shade, and because it's a nice....tree.

I can't tell you how many live healthy *looking* trees I've cut or trimmed for customers that were completely hollow. Old pines included. But still.

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#3468 Jan 20, 2013
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I kept putting of the test because of the noise and my neighbors and other interferences caused by life schedules, etc.
For one, I kept re-reading articles about turning your generator into one with a "Floating Neutral" for home Supply use. I feared the safety factor of doing it or not doing it.
A free standing generator is an entire power source "system" and, therefore, the Ground and the Neutral are linked together just like you do inside of a home's Service Panel.
But when you intend to power your home with that same generator, it become an "attendant" system. This means that Neutral and Ground are tied together in your Service Panel *AND* inside of the generator. This is a no-no. For safety's sake, there should never be multiple Grounds inside of a power system.
Circuit Breakers trip to protect against overloads but also because of shorts to Ground. Imagine a scenario where there are multiple paths to Ground running through different CB's. No CB would receive enough current to trip it because that Ground Path has been divided into smaller pieces.
There are many other scenarios where multiple Ground Paths can become dangerous and also damage equipment.
Long story short, it is almost a must that people disconnect Ground & Neutral inside the generator so that, when plugged into a home's electrical grid, it doesn't present another Ground to the system. That way, when you plug your generator's 4-wire 220V cord into the Home's system, you are connecting Neutral-to-Neutral and Ground-to-Ground. Might sound confusing but it's not if you draw out the system diagram.
Anyways....I wanted to make damned sure I knew what I was doing before I did anything like blow up the Service Panel, electrocute myself or burn out my Microwave. I'm cautious that way because, aside from financial losses, I also want to stay alive:>
If I ever want to use that generator as a free-standing power supply, say, at a picnic or barbecue in the forest, it is a safety must that I re-combine the Neutral and Ground inside the generator. I'm going to print out a NOTICE: This Generator Has Ground and Neutral Unbonded. Re-Bond For Free-Standing Isolated Use.
I wonder if they include that in the owner's manual. I got mine used too so I wouldn't know. Mine is just a small portable job but still good to know, thanks. I don't think I'll ever feed it back into the panel anyway. But I don't think it would have dawned on me to think twice about backfeeding it, so you saved me if I ever do decide to do so, thanks.

I'm sure you're right about that. We can probably think about a generator and a subpanel (not a main panel) the same way. What I mean is, in a subpanel it is necessary to avoid connecting ground and neutral just like you were saying you have to separate them in the generator. So yea, good move. As far as I know it's ok to have a separate earth ground for the subpanel as long as the bars are not connected inside the box.

The only snag I have is that the feed for the subpanel comes right off the main circuit breaker of the main panel (the incoming feed from the street and the outgoing to the barn subpanel are both stuffed into the main breaker) and that might be against code first of all, so I may have to redo that before I sell this place.

So when you disconnect your ground and neutral inside the generator, that must mean you run a separate ground to connect the generator ground to the ground lug of the panel?

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#3469 Jan 20, 2013
Or you could have an earth ground just for the generator after separating the neutral and ground? Wouldn't it be the same to hook the separated ground of the generator to the ground bar of the main panel as it would be to hook it to it's own earth ground bar?

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#3470 Jan 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>I wonder if they include that in the owner's manual. I got mine used too so I wouldn't know. Mine is just a small portable job but still good to know, thanks. I don't think I'll ever feed it back into the panel anyway. But I don't think it would have dawned on me to think twice about backfeeding it, so you saved me if I ever do decide to do so, thanks.
I'm sure you're right about that. We can probably think about a generator and a subpanel (not a main panel) the same way. What I mean is, in a subpanel it is necessary to avoid connecting ground and neutral just like you were saying you have to separate them in the generator. So yea, good move. As far as I know it's ok to have a separate earth ground for the subpanel as long as the bars are not connected inside the box.
The Owners Manual(I downloaded the pdf) states that, according to NEC, the generator must be grounded at all times when in use. Even at a campground! I have an 8' copper-clad rod in the ground about 10' away for my TV antenna and use that for generator frame Earth Ground. I made it simple with an attached screw-terminating lug on both the generator frame and at the antenna connection. A simple slotted screwdriver and a length of coiled 12 gauge is all that I need.

The generator's Neutral and Ground are normally bonded together at one of the 120V outlets using a short length of jumper wire. I removed one end of that jumper and tied it off safely with plastic tie-downs. So, yes, this means that the 4-wire 220V Cable I connect to my house plug contains X, Y, Neutral and a Ground wire, too, that leads back to my service panel via the Transfer Switch Box to become bonded with Neutral once again there. The issue here is having two separate bonding points - once inside the generator and once again inside the Service Panel. This is considered unsafe. Making it safe means having only (1) bonding point for Neutral and Ground - inside the Service Panel/Transfer Switch Box.

When I removed that Neutral/Ground jumper wire on the generator, I made the Neutral what's called a "Floating Neutral" but the Ground still connects to Earth Ground via the generator frame when in use. This means I then have (2) Earth Grounds which, as far as I know, is allowed - one Earth Ground outside the Service Panel and the other at my home's antenna Earth Ground.

But I still have some unanswered issues. When my generator Ground comes into the house via a 30Amp Breaker Box, I had to join the (2)Ground wires - one from the house's conduit wire and the other from the outside plug. I could have simply used a wire nut, I suppose, but I spent a buck and got a small bus bar to insert into the box and tied them off there. That bus bar bonds with the metal box...which then bonds with the metal conduit...which then bonds with everything else down the line. The Neutral, coming through that same box, is connected to another bus bar but that bar is isolated(insulated)from electrical contact with the Box(otherwise, I'd be bonding the Ground and Neutral again!!). Is my Ground wire connection Kosher?

To make it even more confusing, I spoke with an electrician at one of the Big Box stores about Service Panel Boxes and became confused further. My Service Panel Bus Bar is isolated(insulated) from the metal box. He told me that most Service Panel Boxes have the Bus Bar bonded to the metal box but some manufacturers isolate it - like mine. Huh? Why would you NOT ground the panel for safety?
If a Hot wire broke loose inside the panel and touched the box, you could get electrocuted touching your panel!

Whatever happens from here on out, I haven't electrocuted myself, anyone else and nor have I burned down my home. Knock on wood.

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#3471 Jan 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
Or you could have an earth ground just for the generator after separating the neutral and ground? Wouldn't it be the same to hook the separated ground of the generator to the ground bar of the main panel as it would be to hook it to it's own earth ground bar?
I think you're right. That generator Ground Wire travels back to the Service Panel's Ground which is then Earth Grounded right outside. This would make the generator's frame grounded.

There is a potential safety issue, though, in that short time span between starting the generator for the recommended 5 minute warmup and then plugging in your transfer cable between house and generator. Up until that moment of circuit completion, you are potentially at risk of touching the frame and getting fried if it's not Earth Grounded. 5-6 minutes of danger?

And visa versa when shutting down.

But how many people Ground their generators? How many people get fried touching their generator's frame? At what point do you call a person a gambler? When they fail to fasten their seat belt? Unprotected sex? Smoking? No Safety Glasses and Ear Muffs when mowing the lawn? Drinking a 64 Oz Pepsi in Michael Bloomberg's NY?

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#3472 Jan 21, 2013
shinningelectr0n wrote:
.....Making it safe means having only (1) bonding point for Neutral and Ground - inside the Service Panel/Transfer Switch Box.
When I removed that Neutral/Ground jumper wire on the generator, I made the Neutral what's called a "Floating Neutral" but the Ground still connects to Earth Ground via the generator frame when in use. This means I then have (2) Earth Grounds which, as far as I know, is allowed - one Earth Ground outside the Service Panel and the other at my home's antenna Earth Ground.
Yes, as far as I know (and I'm no electrician either) a separate earth ground is good; I have a separate one for the sub. I figure it's actually better that way anyway, to have a shorter path to ground?

But I still have some unanswered issues. When my generator Ground comes into the house via a 30Amp Breaker Box, I had to join the (2)Ground wires - one from the house's conduit wire and the other from the outside plug. I could have simply used a wire nut, I suppose, but I spent a buck and got a small bus bar to insert into the box and tied them off there. That bus bar bonds with the metal box...which then bonds with the metal conduit...which then bonds with everything else down the line. The Neutral, coming through that same box, is connected to another bus bar but that bar is isolated(insulated)from electrical contact with the Box(otherwise, I'd be bonding the Ground and Neutral again!!). Is my Ground wire connection Kosher?
To make it even more confusing, I spoke with an electrician at one of the Big Box stores about Service Panel Boxes and became confused further. My Service Panel Bus Bar is isolated(insulated) from the metal box. He told me that most Service Panel Boxes have the Bus Bar bonded to the metal box but some manufacturers isolate it - like mine. Huh? Why would you NOT ground the panel for safety?
If a Hot wire broke loose inside the panel and touched the box, you could get electrocuted touching your panel!
Whatever happens from here on out, I haven't electrocuted myself, anyone else and nor have I burned down my home. Knock on wood.
Let's see, are you saying you connected an additional ground bar to the box? Like, you have one in contact with the metal of the box and one not in contact? Why not just use the existing ground bar? I guess because you wanted the box grounded, and that makes sense to me too. My box (frame) is grounded and I don't see why you would have a problem grounding one that was previously insulated from the box. I can't understand that idea of having the ground bar isolated either, makes no sense.

But I would ask someone if there is a reason for that. Did you ask that guy if he had any idea why they would manufacture such a box, and whether there is a foreseeable problem with connecting it?

“GOD OF ALL”

Since: Aug 12

London, UK

#3473 Jan 21, 2013
i am largely self taught rocket scientist.

Surely you guys can learn to be a electrician in your spare time.

“GOD OF ALL”

Since: Aug 12

London, UK

#3474 Jan 21, 2013
FACTOR based equations for rocket science is a done deal.

“GOD OF ALL”

Since: Aug 12

London, UK

#3475 Jan 21, 2013
Saturn rings are ancient internets

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#3476 Jan 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, as far as I know (and I'm no electrician either) a separate earth ground is good; I have a separate one for the sub. I figure it's actually better that way anyway, to have a shorter path to ground?
<quoted text>Let's see, are you saying you connected an additional ground bar to the box? Like, you have one in contact with the metal of the box and one not in contact? Why not just use the existing ground bar? I guess because you wanted the box grounded, and that makes sense to me too. My box (frame) is grounded and I don't see why you would have a problem grounding one that was previously insulated from the box. I can't understand that idea of having the ground bar isolated either, makes no sense.
But I would ask someone if there is a reason for that. Did you ask that guy if he had any idea why they would manufacture such a box, and whether there is a foreseeable problem with connecting it?
Nope. I said that, inside of the first Circuit Breaker Box found in my garage, I have two small Bus Bars.(1) is insulated from the box. This is for the Neutral coming in from outside joining with the Neutral from the Conduit. The other Bus Bar is BONDED to that same Box and I used it to join the incoming outside Ground to the Ground coming out of the Conduit.

This is NOT the Service Panel.

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#3477 Jan 21, 2013
the dark lord wrote:
i am largely self taught rocket scientist.
Surely you guys can learn to be a electrician in your spare time.
I am a self-taught self-teacher.

An experienced one, at that.
SoE

Rozet, WY

#3479 Jan 21, 2013
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
I am a self-taught self-teacher.
An experienced one, at that.
Would you be unanimous in that ?
SoE

Rozet, WY

#3480 Jan 21, 2013
the dark lord wrote:
i am largely self taught rocket scientist.
Amazing !

Well, you're just the person to settle an argument i'm in... on another thread.
Is red fuming HNO3 combined with Hydrated Aluminum Nitrate still used as a component in fuel ?
AL3NO3H2O...i believe...
SoE

Rozet, WY

#3481 Jan 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
Thanks SoE

The usual tree response I see is that the tree is trying to grow over the wound but it seems it would take a decade to complete at the rate I normally see, and the new growth that is trying to cover the wound is usually pretty thick. But that one wound that I mentioned was done in a year had a very thin layer of what seemed like living tissue having a very thin smooth bark "skin".
I'll take all you have on that....
I have removed 3 to 4 in limbs on apples and after 10 years only about 1/3 of the wound has grown over...
SoE

Rozet, WY

#3482 Jan 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
I wonder, couldn't we basically just graft a patch? Just like they do for humans, I could cut a round outer patch from a far away and less important part of the tree and then cut it fit and somehow secure it. What you think?
.
That is a intriguing idea..
I would start small. I would try covering about 1/4 to 1/2 in first..
Here cleanliness would truly be next to godliness.
I would try to time the operation in the spring hitting in the first 4 days of sap rise...
I'm in totally new territory here..The limb trunk collar may have to be removed to get a good cambium bind...I'd have to do a little research before i would get to ambitious...

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#3483 Jan 21, 2013
SoE wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you be unanimous in that ?
Only with myself.
SoE

Rozet, WY

#3484 Jan 21, 2013
the dark lord wrote:
Surely you guys can learn to be a electrician in your spare time.
I suppose that's possible if we implement P.I^2.R pyramid power..

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#3485 Jan 21, 2013
SoE wrote:
<quoted text>
Amazing !
Well, you're just the person to settle an argument i'm in... on another thread.
Is red fuming HNO3 combined with Hydrated Aluminum Nitrate still used as a component in fuel ?
AL3NO3H2O...i believe...
I'd much rather just be a Radio City Rockettes Scientist learning what fuels women to move fast.
SoE

Rozet, WY

#3486 Jan 22, 2013
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd much rather just be a Radio City Rockettes Scientist learning what fuels women to move fast.
A "coveted position" indeed..however the mere mention of that subject would probably make me move fast as mrs.SoE attains orbit..

“The Intrepid”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#3487 Jan 23, 2013
Pokay wrote:
I wonder, couldn't we basically just graft a patch? Just like they do for humans, I could cut a round outer patch from a far away and less important part of the tree and then cut it fit and somehow secure it. What you think?
I always think about these things too late. I hope I don't lose my maple tree due to the insides rotting out from the limbectomies that won't heal.
The wounds I'm talking about are low nearer the ground so if the tree rots out from there down then I lose basically the whole tree. I know a tree can grow for a heck of a long time even when hollow but I hate to take chances with a tree so valuable for shade, and because it's a nice....tree.
I can't tell you how many live healthy *looking* trees I've cut or trimmed for customers that were completely hollow. Old pines included. But still.
Count on your "on" season lasting longer in the future.

http://earthsky.org/earth/trees-are-shedding-...

I thought I had eaten my last tomato about a week ago and then found two more little ones growing on a vine after that. This late season stuff is getting weird.

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