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“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#1 May 21, 2010
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm...

A fascinating concept but only if it is grounded in rational thought.

I don't have Time for fantasy:)
SoE

Rozet, WY

#2 May 21, 2010
shinningelectr0n wrote:
http://www.scientificamerican. com/article.cfm?id=is-time-an- illusion
A fascinating concept but only if it is grounded in rational thought.
I don't have Time for fantasy:)
It must be. I've yet to get it into a bottle.
Sheila

Sherman, TX

#3 May 22, 2010
I could swear that I experienced an anomaly in time a couple weeks ago, but then maybe I was only going through a phase.....,,,,////*

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#4 May 22, 2010
Sheila wrote:
I could swear that I experienced an anomaly in time a couple weeks ago, but then maybe I was only going through a phase.....,,,,/
You are a modern day Alice In Wonderland. So, you weren't going through a phase per se but a Looking Glass. What a pane, eh?

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#5 May 22, 2010
SoE wrote:
<quoted text>
It must be. I've yet to get it into a bottle.
I've got Rosemary AND Thyme in a bottle.

Gotcha.

Makin' thyme with Rosemary:)

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#6 May 22, 2010
Seriously, though, I find the article very interesting on many levels(the link offers an abstract but I got this month's issue and I read the whole thing in one bathroom visit).

If Time is not fundamental but emergent then ZENO was right when he spoke about Zeno's Arrow and other paradoxes. Fascinating stuff.
SoE

Rozet, WY

#7 May 22, 2010
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
I've got Rosemary AND Thyme in a bottle.
Gotcha.
Makin' thyme with Rosemary:)
Ah, yes..the many dimensions...
SoE

Rozet, WY

#8 May 22, 2010
I can't seem to find the original article.Perhaps I'm still a real Zeno?
..........
If Time is not fundamental but emergent
..........
i believe I'm following you here. Is time steady state
or ?
Poor ol Heisenberg ?

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#9 May 22, 2010
SoE wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, yes..the many dimensions...
Yep. And Whiskey in a bottle might be a Fifth Dimension:)

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#10 May 22, 2010
SoE wrote:
I can't seem to find the original article.Perhaps I'm still a real Zeno?
..........
If Time is not fundamental but emergent
..........
i believe I'm following you here. Is time steady state
or ?
Poor ol Heisenberg ?
I just clicked on the original link above and it works.

One analogy used in the article goes like this(my own words and interpretation): at a powerfully high resolution, we see subatomic particles but, if we back off a little, we see atoms. Backing off some more, we see molecules. Further still, we see molecular structures forming cellulose partitions. We keep backing away ever further until - we see a wooden Sofa Table.

The Sofa Table is emergent while the sub and atomic particles are fundamental because those fundamental particles could also form many other structures and not just wood. It could be a steel table, a concrete table, a glass jar, etc. The atomic particles are fundamental while the objects are emergent from them.

This is the article's main suggestion regarding Time; it is emergent and not fundamental, the reverse of what we normally and often intuitively believe. And then we get into relative metrics.... clocks do not measure Time but only relative motions. Spring-Wound clocks measure relative movements of internal parts and display it. The Earth makes one complete revolution and we call it 24 hrs. but we are not measuring Time itself but relative motion. A digital wristwatch measures everything but Time; it counts and displays a 'tuning fork' crystal vibration but not Time itself. And, since we are part of this Universe, built of its pieces, we have a natural intuition to see Time as a sort of fluid entity that moves. Zeno alluded to this when he spoke of the shot arrow that doesn't actually take time to move through its flight.
Sheila

Sherman, TX

#11 May 22, 2010
SoE wrote:
I can't seem to find the original article.Perhaps I'm still a real Zeno?
..........
If Time is not fundamental but emergent
..........
i believe I'm following you here. Is time steady state
or ?
Poor ol Heisenberg ?
Or like the Wheeler-DeWitt equation suggests...that Time is irrelevant? It's not a constant that can be attached to the expansion of the universe if the observance of man is removed? "Genesis by observership"?

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#12 May 22, 2010
Sheila wrote:
<quoted text>Or like the Wheeler-DeWitt equation suggests...that Time is irrelevant? It's not a constant that can be attached to the expansion of the universe if the observance of man is removed? "Genesis by observership"?
Unfortunately, perception is reality...until such time that our perception changes or is corrected for.
SoE

Rozet, WY

#13 Jun 2, 2010
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
I just clicked on the original link above and it works.
One analogy used in the article goes like this(my own words and interpretation): at a powerfully high resolution, we see subatomic particles but, if we back off a little, we see atoms. Backing off some more, we see molecules. Further still, we see molecular structures forming cellulose partitions. We keep backing away ever further until - we see a wooden Sofa Table.
The Sofa Table is emergent while the sub and atomic particles are fundamental because those fundamental particles could also form many other structures and not just wood. It could be a steel table, a concrete table, a glass jar, etc. The atomic particles are fundamental while the objects are emergent from them.
This is the article's main suggestion regarding Time; it is emergent and not fundamental, the reverse of what we normally and often intuitively believe. And then we get into relative metrics.... clocks do not measure Time but only relative motions. Spring-Wound clocks measure relative movements of internal parts and display it. The Earth makes one complete revolution and we call it 24 hrs. but we are not measuring Time itself but relative motion. A digital wristwatch measures everything but Time; it counts and displays a 'tuning fork' crystal vibration but not Time itself. And, since we are part of this Universe, built of its pieces, we have a natural intuition to see Time as a sort of fluid entity that moves. Zeno alluded to this when he spoke of the shot arrow that doesn't actually take time to move through its flight.
So,...what conclusions have you drawn ?

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#14 Jun 2, 2010
Sheila wrote:
<quoted text>Or like the Wheeler-DeWitt equation suggests...that Time is irrelevant? It's not a constant that can be attached to the expansion of the universe if the observance of man is removed? "Genesis by observership"?
Is it an impediment for us that we are part of and reside in the Universe we are trying to decipher? Knowing thyself is difficult for not being a neutral, outside observer. Is this an anthropic universe because we see it that way? Or is this an anthropic universe because it is creating us in its own image? Or all of the above?
Sheila

Sherman, TX

#15 Jun 2, 2010
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it an impediment for us that we are part of and reside in the Universe we are trying to decipher? Knowing thyself is difficult for not being a neutral, outside observer. Is this an anthropic universe because we see it that way? Or is this an anthropic universe because it is creating us in its own image? Or all of the above?
If I say what I'm thinking you'll think I'm crazy.

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#16 Jun 2, 2010
Sheila wrote:
<quoted text>If I say what I'm thinking you'll think I'm crazy.
So why aren't you saying it?

:)

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#17 Jun 2, 2010
SoE wrote:
<quoted text>
So,...what conclusions have you drawn ?
I'm a poor artist when it comes to drawing conclusions or ideas. Not being scientific minded, I can only speculate. So what follows is just opinion. All metrics are relative or inferred. " ... the actual definition (Kilogram)is based on a specific platinum-iridium cylinder held in a vault at the BIPM in Sèvres, France." -- from Wikipedia

The speed of light is distance traveled per unit time. But both the distance and the time are relative metrics that are based on other observed natural phenomena.

"It is utterly beyond our power to measure the changes of things by time. Quite the contrary,time is an abstraction at which we arrive by means of the changes of things" - Ernst Mach

In consideration of Relativity's Time Dilation and the Lorentz Transformation(shortened length in the direction of travel), how can we continue to rely on so many universal constants that have been shown to be not so constant under differing conditions and environments?

The gist of the original article suggests that Time is an active player as much as it is a consequence. I find that interesting. If true, it would gum up all of present day physics.
Sheila

Sherman, TX

#18 Jun 2, 2010
shinningelectr0n wrote:
<quoted text>
So why aren't you saying it?
:)
You enjoy laughing at me way too much.

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#19 Jun 2, 2010
NOT an active player above. Typo

“My Life Is A Shell Game”

Since: May 07

Lapeer, MI

#20 Jun 2, 2010
Sheila wrote:
<quoted text>You enjoy laughing at me way too much.
So what's wrong with a little humor?

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