Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 178702 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#156480 Oct 11, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You got that right. Too many Hoegartens and Canadian Club.
Oh well. Happens occasionally.
Nevertheless, Creager's paper is in the dustbin, and he would not even pass a first year physics course. Whoever "peer reviewed" that paper should be embarrassed.
That is why creationist "peer review" is such a joke. It does not even take an expert in the field to debunk Creager, or almost any other creationist paper.

And as much as creationists hate real peer review they have never been able to demonstrate any bias by it.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#156481 Oct 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
o His paper is excellent and contains no errors. A bunch of amateur evotards with no understanding of the material can make all the claims they want but it's meaningless if they're all wrong.
o All you did was concoct schemes to try and foil by deception and trickery but they all fell to the wayside and Creager's math and predictions withstood all of it.
o It just shows that math and physics is not something you argue your way around although this is exactly what you tried to do.
Wrong again. His paper contains obvious and elementary errors. As you have been shown.
o You insisted that statistical entropy is measured in J/K from Boltzmann's constant even though you knew it is a measure of probabilities. And then Poly slipped and agreed with me, that stopped you from using that false tactic.
Wrong again. And the only time you can use a "k" with no units is in information theory which does not apply to thermodynamics...not only that but you assured me you were NOT using the information definition when I pointed it out.

You seem to think there is a third option - a unitless application to TD. There isn't.

And Polymath made exactly the same point as I did.

You are hopelessly lost.
o Then you tried to confabulate the statistical entropy formula into information theory entropy and continued this even though you know it is completely different application mean for the information content of a message.
Wrong again. I looked at the information theory definition because that was obviously what you were using in your attempt to claim that units were irrelevant. Your problem is, you do not seem to even realise you were doing it. LOG instead of ln was one give away. The belief that you could ignore the units in Boltzmann's constant was the other.

I merely pointed out to you why the information version of entropy was not applicable.
o And then for your latest scam, you two conspirators actually invented some imaginary “before and after scenario” so you could somehow slip in this ridiculous idea of exit energy.
No scam. Exit energy was there from my earliest remarks. And if you even had the slightest understanding of what you were talking about, you would know that any entropy change formula MUST have a before and after. "change" man, this is basic stuff.
And even when presented with the clear-cut example of applying energy two different ways (crew vs. bomb) to raw materials. Even though this is clearly two separate events (house vs. debris) that are being compared.
And I said right from the start, that thermodynamically you MUST look at what happens to every part of the relevant system and that includes the waste heat generated.

And Creager's inexplicable "cooling reduces entropy...therefore its the ordered application of energy that reduces entropy" is worse than silly. Its just flagrantly twisting - a lie that you cannot see because you want so much to believe him.
o But I knew where this was going all along when you both insisted that a bomb blast is more ordered than a construction crew.
I knew where this was going when you first stated that lie. And even after correcting you 10 times, you repeat it again. You can only defend your position by lying. Says it all.

I said, and still say, that the TOTAL disorder created by the crew is greater than the bomb blast when you include the full picture, which includes the waste heat generated in the building of the house. The mere fact that it takes far more fuel to build a house than to wreck one tells you that.

But you do not even understand that the fuel is the energy source.
Clueless.
So I really knew what was going on all along.
You have defeated nobody but yourself and lost the chance to actually learn something. I pity you. You have no right to be this stupid.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#156482 Oct 11, 2013
one way or another wrote:
You are the NFL vs CTE---traumatic brain injury.
You are the tobacco heads testifying before Congress.
Your teachers pet schooling has brought you to the childishness you project.
You offer nothing of value and you hate any that do offer things of value, that's what schools teach.

Mirror mirror, on the wall....

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#156487 Oct 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
You're drunk. And you don't understand faith. Not even close.
Drunk or sober, I'm pretty sure that just about everybody here has a clear understanding of faith. It's not understanding much of anything else >because of faith< that plagues certain persons.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#156488 Oct 11, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
So, yes, a laser is very ordered.
BUT HOW CAN IT BE WHEN IT MAKES SO MUCH DISORDER?!?

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/Cree...

“Input”

Since: Dec 10

Input

#156491 Oct 11, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
BUT HOW CAN IT BE WHEN IT MAKES SO MUCH DISORDER?!?
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/Cree...
This way.
http://lowcadence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013...

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#156493 Oct 11, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You got that right. Too many Hoegartens and Canadian Club.
Oh well. Happens occasionally.
Nevertheless, Creager's paper is in the dustbin, and he would not even pass a first year physics course. Whoever "peer reviewed" that paper should be embarrassed.
What a drunken fool you are. You have been shown clearly and honestly with hard science how forward/vertical evolution and abiogenesis is impossible and instead of taking this opportunity to realize that you've been wrong all these years after all, you continue to lie and distort the truth that was provided so generously. Actually, it's obvious that you understand what is happening. You really do realize what I said was true and Creager's predictions are very, very solid and true. But like a powerful addiction, you can't help but resist and lie about it. Evolution is your opium and your heroin Chimney. The fact that you have to get drunk to forget your shame. You are living a lie as are all evotards that known what you know. Sure there are the clueless wonders, like Dogen for instance, who are the cheerleaders for evolution not knowing the how or why. But you of all people know and in spite of knowing, think you can rationalize your heroin addiction with flimsy stories about fuel tanks and information theory. Chimney, this is so obviously BS. You may have had some success at this con game with others but I saw through it immediately because most of it just wasn't rational, didn't make sense. You have a gifted mind Chimney and it's such a shame to see you waste it. Waste it on a lie.

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#156494 Oct 11, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
Drunk or sober, I'm pretty sure that just about everybody here has a clear understanding of faith. It's not understanding much of anything else >because of faith< that plagues certain persons.
No, it doesn't work that way. Read 1 Corinthians 2:14 for instance. Read it in several different translations and read all the commentaries, then get back to me.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And I have personal experience with this. If you don't have faith, you will not understand.

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#156495 Oct 11, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
More specifically, the photons are ordered.
<quoted text>
Yes. In fact, since photons are bosons, they can all be in the *same* micro-state. In lasers, this doesn't quite happen, but it is much closer than ordinary light, for example.
<quoted text>
Position is not how you determine a micro-state in this context. You have to count the number of available quantum states that are equivalent to the situation. In particular, since the photons all have nearly the same frequency and phase, they are indistinguishable particles. This leads to very few micro-states.
One problem you are having is that re-positioning of indistinguishable particles gives the *same* micro-state. In classical treatments, that lead to a division by a factor of N!. In quantum treatments, the symmetry of the wave functions plays a similar role.
So, yes, a laser is very ordered.
SO the number of microstates is very, very high and there is very little order in the photons of the laser!

“Input”

Since: Dec 10

Input

#156496 Oct 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
SO the number of microstates is very, very high and there is very little order in the photons of the laser!
You must practice being daft, no one could beat you as king doofus
without lots of practice.
Believer

Manchester, TN

#156498 Oct 11, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>What about non-Christian societies? Many examples exist historically and in the present which bear the marks of accountability, laws, citizens living well and engaging in rewarding behavior similar to our own but based on the views of those socieities. How does one explain that if the members did not or do not know Christianity?
My purpose was not to say you cannot be Christian or believe in Christ to "live well." My point was that if " living well" is each individual's reward, then each individual's definition of living well would be whatever brings that individual pleasure in life. So, for a sadist who lives out his sadistic desires that bring him pleasure, living "evil " is his reward. So, living "well" or living "evil" can be a reward if this life is all there is.(No accountability for HOW we live.).
How can we evolve to be better intellectually and in every other way, but good and evil don't matter and are not reverent to what constitutes a well lived life? Individual choice comes with consequences or maybe it doesn't.

“I can never convince the ”

Since: Jan 11

stupid that they are stupid.

#156499 Oct 11, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
My purpose was not to say you cannot be Christian or believe in Christ to "live well." My point was that if " living well" is each individual's reward, then each individual's definition of living well would be whatever brings that individual pleasure in life. So, for a sadist who lives out his sadistic desires that bring him pleasure, living "evil " is his reward. So, living "well" or living "evil" can be a reward if this life is all there is.(No accountability for HOW we live.).
How can we evolve to be better intellectually and in every other way, but good and evil don't matter and are not reverent to what constitutes a well lived life? Individual choice comes with consequences or maybe it doesn't.
Why do you think your worse case scenario is the only possibility? What you are basically saying is that without Christianity that there would be no consequences for our actions. We have laws that are not part of Christianity. A person can't murder another regardless of how much they may like it. The consequence is going to jail or even capital punishment. The same for theft, rape, forgery, etc., etc.

I know what you are trying to say, but I believe like our founding fathers did, that a man can be just, wise and good while being an atheist. It may not set well with you, but I believe that to be true.
Believer

Manchester, TN

#156501 Oct 11, 2013
Yes I can spell relevant (now )!
Believer

Manchester, TN

#156503 Oct 11, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you think your worse case scenario is the only possibility? What you are basically saying is that without Christianity that there would be no consequences for our actions. We have laws that are not part of Christianity. A person can't murder another regardless of how much they may like it. The consequence is going to jail or even capital punishment. The same for theft, rape, forgery, etc., etc.
I know what you are trying to say, but I believe like our founding fathers did, that a man can be just, wise and good while being an atheist. It may not set well with you, but I believe that to be true.
Evidently you don't know what I'm saying. I also believe a man can be just and good and be an atheist. I believe their is a wisdom that comes with the desire to be just and good, but I do believe their is spiritual wisdom as well that comes with the desire to know the God of Truth, Live, Mercy and Justice.
It doesn't make us more wise in the sense of being able to be more intelligent in knowledge or moral in the way we live our lives. It is the ability to understand that we have a spirit that will live on after this body of flesh and blood returns to the ground.

When a Christian tells an unbeliever that a choosing to believe in God brings about a certain amount of Godly wisdom, he is not saying he is smarter or better in any way. We were all created equal when it comes to the Cross! We have different talents, different IQs, different cultures, different looks, different personalities...we are all individuals. The one thing we do ALL have in common (other than these dying bodies of flesh) is a spirit that we can connect all of us to the reality that is only found when we choose to seek to know The One True God (the God of love, and mercy, and justice and peace...). This is my belief. I do not disrespect you if you disagree.

Most atheists do seem to show disrespect for believers. But, especially, rather than choosing to respect our right to believe (as we should respect your right not to believe), the ones we hear from usually disrespect us and the God we believe in; and today seem to be wanting to take away our right to express our faith in public places. That is an infringement on our basic civil right of speech, religion, pursuit of happiness....!
Believer

Manchester, TN

#156504 Oct 11, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Who are you talking to when you go on these little rants? Do you even know? Are you responding to voices in your head? If so I need to change your diagnosis.
Dogen, are you sure that by not being able to explain who or what your god is, that you are not unwittingly putting yourself in that position for your life?

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#156505 Oct 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
What a drunken fool you are. You have been shown clearly and honestly with hard science how forward/vertical evolution and abiogenesis is impossible and instead of taking this opportunity to realize that you've been wrong all these years after all, you continue to lie and distort the truth that was provided so generously.
On the contrary. I have been shown a paper written by a clueless hack, making errors that anyone past fist year physics should understand. Poly and I have tried to explain the errors to you, but you cannot see straight and simply insist on calling anyone who does not believe in your fantasy paper a liar.

The "distortion" you claim we are making are merely standard basic physics.
You really do realize what I said was true and Creager's predictions are very, very solid and true.
Neither Creager nor you seem to understand that the order is in the application, processing, and disposal of the energy. Not in the energy itself.

Creager makes the incredibly silly leap from "cooling lowers entropy" (correct) to therefore its the ordered application of energy that lowers entropy" which only a stanger to logic could believe follows from the first statement.
But like a powerful addiction, you can't help but resist and lie about it.
It is you who have demonstrated a powerful addiction to poor arguments so long as they support your core claim. That you feel you need to shows your desperation.

Nothing I have written is a lie. Increased disorder is a side effect of any production process. That is how the whole concept of entropy arose in the first place. Units matter in describing any physical process. Energy does not have entropy, it has concentration and dispersion - dissipation.

I showed an estimate that putting a mere 20,000 kJ of energy (as gravitational potential) into a wall by erecting it can easily burn 600,000 kJ of fuel, and that heat goes SOMEWHERE.

Youwere even confused over the elementary fact that the energy used when hand-building a house comes from the burning og glucose in a man's muscles. Elementary.

Your problem is you do not even understand the Clausius entropy and think you can correct us all on the Boltzmann version when they are the same damned thing but Boltzmann's version explains as well as describes what entropy really IS at the particle level.

Unfortunately, the rocks in your head mean that with your only real exposure to TD coming from a phoney source, you have prevented yourself from ever learning the real thing. Pity.
Evolution is your opium and your heroin Chimney. The fact that you have to get drunk to forget your shame.
No, I got drunk with some friends for a few laughs. We do that, occasionally. Its normal.

“I'm out hunting”

Since: Jan 10

For your mind and soul

#156506 Oct 12, 2013
appleboy wrote:
<quoted text>
I think this stuff is happening in places where Buddhists are in the majority and they already have the favor of the law of the land. I think it looks more like ethnic clensing.
Muslims don't care about majorities, they will try to impose their own will once they have reached past 5% of the population. Just look at what they are doing to Non Muslims in Syria and Nigeria.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#156507 Oct 12, 2013
The_Enlightener wrote:
I think you should be exposed to all theories of how we got here into existence. They are theories and therefore one should be able to make up their own minds how they want to believe.
Those are not all SCIENTIFIC theories and those that are not have no place in a SCIENCE classroom.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#156508 Oct 12, 2013
jim wrote:
<quoted text>
Darwin later confessed on his death bed
he was wrong.
When they have nothing to believe they
will follow anything!
No, dumbass. He didn't. Forget the Lady Hope crap.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#156509 Oct 12, 2013
Oops! That was weird. Somehow Topix threw me 5 years in the past. I need to pay better attention to the dates.

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