Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 | Posted by: Cash | Full story: www.scientificblogging.com

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."
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“Think&Care”

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#153639
Sep 19, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Understood we are seeing 13 billion year old light.
But there is another factor it isn't the distance at the time the light was emitted.
MACS0647-JD is thought to be the farthest thing we have seen, we see it as it was 13.3 billion years ago. But it wasn't 13.3 billion ly away when it's light left it, it was closer. The light traveled father than the actual distance was between us when it left, and now it should be nearly 46 billion ly away.
yes, there are three different things to consider:

1) how far apart that object was from us when it emitted the light.

2) how far apart that object is from us now.

3) how far the light traveled going from that object to get to us.

For this object, I would have to look up what the distance was in the past, but it was essentially the radius of the observable universe at that time. That would be far less than 13 billion light years.

The distance to that object now is about 45 billion light years.

And the distance light actually traveled is 13 billion light years.

“Think&Care”

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#153640
Sep 19, 2013
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
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Because it is not focused on what we are concerned with. It doesn't address the issues in terms of what evolution requires.
In that case, how about this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life

it explicitly discusses the entropy aspects of life. In particular,

"Moreover, the Gibbs free energy equation, in modified form, can be utilized for open systems when chemical potential terms are included in the energy balance equation. In a popular 1982 textbook, Principles of Biochemistry by noted American biochemist Albert Lehninger, it is argued that the order produced within cells as they grow and divide is more than compensated for by the disorder they create in their surroundings in the course of growth and division. In short, according to Lehninger, "living organisms preserve their internal order by taking from their surroundings free energy, in the form of nutrients or sunlight, and returning to their surroundings an equal amount of energy as heat and entropy."

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

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#153641
Sep 19, 2013
 
MikeF wrote:
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Who's buried in Grant's tomb?
:-)
No one. A tomb is above ground.

“GOD OF ALL”

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#153642
Sep 19, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
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Bingo. But it was for Sub. I get tired of him posting grade school questions that he already knows by heart.
proves what an a hole your are
subduction zone is a girl
last time i looked.
HTS

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#153643
Sep 19, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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Exactly. And by my definition, the rock rock is more disordered than the sphere.
Do you disagree?
OK, now I understand what you're saying...
Yes, I agree that a rock rock is more disordered than a sphere.

To recap your definition of disorder... "the degree of disorder is the amount of information required to completely describe the microscopic system."

According to that definition, a 1,000 page textbook of quantum mechanics is less ordered than 1,000 pages of single-spaced text composed only of the letter "b". I would sharply disagree with such a definition, because the 1,000 pages of the letter "b" could be created with little energy... whereas a textbook of quantum mechanics would take great energy to create. This is because a meaningful book contains information, whereas repetitive letters do not. How does that analogy fit in with the SLoT?

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#153644
Sep 19, 2013
 
the dark lord wrote:
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proves what an a hole your are
subduction zone is a girl
last time i looked.
Then I will refer to Sub as a "person" for I have no clue if that person is male or female!

“GOD OF ALL”

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#153645
Sep 19, 2013
 
scientific understanding of some significant quality
of inquiry must first be established a prior
before a multiplicity of quantum dynamics can be
satisfactorily applied to the foundational subject posterior.

one based maelstrom in philosophical logic can be
combined in mathematical equation with another;
until a system least a network is systematically
constructed from recent if not local
data banks.

we hold a fine approach of trigonometry apparatus
in the assessment of multi complexity of scientific understanding
in accordance with primary subjects.

“GOD OF ALL”

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#153646
Sep 19, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Then I will refer to Sub as a "person" for I have no clue if that person is male or female!
lets just call her "Scatterbrains"
the FBI use her head as a memory bank football
such a sad case.
and lests be honest
she is so brainy.

everyone want to be her
i want to score a goal with her at Wembley.

or better a hat-trick
so i can take it home after the game.

“GOD OF ALL”

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#153647
Sep 19, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
In that case, how about this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life
it explicitly discusses the entropy aspects of life. In particular,
"Moreover, the Gibbs free energy equation, in modified form, can be utilized for open systems when chemical potential terms are included in the energy balance equation. In a popular 1982 textbook, Principles of Biochemistry by noted American biochemist Albert Lehninger, it is argued that the order produced within cells as they grow and divide is more than compensated for by the disorder they create in their surroundings in the course of growth and division. In short, according to Lehninger, "living organisms preserve their internal order by taking from their surroundings free energy, in the form of nutrients or sunlight, and returning to their surroundings an equal amount of energy as heat and entropy."
i could stand up for texas women...

and when i am finished you will be goggle eyed.

love ya babe.

“GOD OF ALL”

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#153648
Sep 19, 2013
 
lick lips and say meow
hold an iron towards the heat of the sun
an pull a lever for the grace of god.

touch the blue paper
and move a significant distance away.

feel the heat take the pressure
love the pain
come through pleasure.

“GOD OF ALL”

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#153649
Sep 19, 2013
 
see ya folks.

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

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#153650
Sep 19, 2013
 

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the dark lord wrote:
see ya folks.
Yep oh and feel free to take your time coming back :-)
The Dude

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#153651
Sep 19, 2013
 
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
There are trillions of trillions of possible micro states of a crystal.
A given molecule just happens to align itself in one position vs another. You call it "ordered" only because of its symmetry. In the case of ice, the molecular properties of water alone at a given temperature determine the crystalline arrangement.
As far as microstates of a cell...I assume you mean FUNCTIONAL microstates?
I challenge you to prove or even logically explain your contention that "trillions" of possible microstates exist.
As far as is known, there is only one genetic code that has the capacity to support life...DNA
If multiple codes are possible....then show us the scientific evidence. Why are not multiple different genetic codes evident in nature?
Why aren't multiple genetic codes evident in nature? Hmmm, let's see.

Well there's around 7 BILLION humans on the planet.

Oh, and then we have EVERYTHING ELSE that's on the Earth.

Each one of them all with slightly different genetic code. And if alive, functional to boot.
The Dude

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#153652
Sep 19, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Good point. And that is only for that one molecule. LOL
Yikes. That's a lot of microstates.
The Dude

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#153653
Sep 19, 2013
 
HTS wrote:
You are essentially denying the purposeful organization of matter.
How is "purpose" defined here? Then how is it determined? Then what made it that way?
The Dude

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#153654
Sep 19, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
This is wrong. The number of available microstates for ice does not include rotational, or translational states. They are included for liquid water. This is *basic* material. it isn't controversial in the least.
<quoted text>
But none of the rotational states are left. None of the translational states are left. So it is MORE ordered, it has fewer available microstates and has lower entropy.
<quoted text>
And this is false. There are all the translational states. There are also rotational states, flexing states, vibrational states, etc.
<quoted text>
Simply false. Especially compared to ice.
<quoted text>
Then you thought wrong.
<quoted text>
A change in entropy is *defined* in thermodynamics by the equation dS=dQ/T, where dQ is the amount of energy change, T is the temperature, and dS is the entropy change. For the same amount of energy change, the change in entropy is more at lower temperatures. In particular, if energy is released, dQ is negative, and entropy decreases.
This is *basic* and follows directly from the thermodynamic definition of entropy.
Keep in mind that HTS's definition of "order" means "intelligence required."

:-/
The Dude

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#153655
Sep 19, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
This is what started the whole thing.
"The oldest known Calendar is a Lunar Calendar in Aberdeenshire, Scotland, which was constructed around 8,000 BCE."
So I asked did they use BC back then, how could they use BC back then way before Jesus, or was it implemented later for religious purposes. And I also said by them dating this at 8000BC that would mean the world is 10013 years old which would not go along with the YEC's.
BC/AD is just for religious purposes so why do they keep dating things such as this calendar in BC (8000BC)? One has to think every time they date something with a BC or AD it plays into the creationists hands. I have never seen a fossil dated 65millionBC (LOL joke). So why sugar coat the dating of the calendar. If it is 10000 years old, just say it is 10000 years old and not date it to 8000BC.
Me-owch.
The Dude

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#153656
Sep 19, 2013
 
HTS wrote:
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Answer the question, Polymath...
Is a frozen human corpse more ordered than a live human corpse?
You have ignored my fundamental challenge... to give an objective definition of "order".
No he hasn't.

By the way, after well over a year now you've ignored my request to give an objective definition of "complexity". We have no idea what it means in the context you are using, because unfortunately you have no idea what it means in the context you are using.

At least we know what you mean by "order" - Godmagic.

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#153657
Sep 19, 2013
 
the dark lord wrote:
subduction zone is a girl
last time i looked.
For real?
HTS

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#153658
Sep 19, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Why aren't multiple genetic codes evident in nature? Hmmm, let's see.
Well there's around 7 BILLION humans on the planet.
Oh, and then we have EVERYTHING ELSE that's on the Earth.
Each one of them all with slightly different genetic code. And if alive, functional to boot.
I'm speaking of different genetic codes other than DNA-based.

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