Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 | Posted by: Cash | Full story: www.scientificblogging.com

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

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“What, me worry?”

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#103690
Oct 6, 2012
 
Psychology wrote:
I have done a lot more studying and it all seems to support my hypothesis, unless you evos think you can prove otherwise.
The evidence is there.
If you've done so much research into physics, then you already know that acceleration is ANY change in rate or direction of motion, therefore slowing down is acceleration. So, either you just lied by saying you've studied physics, or you lied when you said slowing down was not acceleration. Which is it? At least one of those was a lie (though we know it was both). It's not possible for both to be honest, so which one was the lie?

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#103691
Oct 6, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>That's not a proper reference. I think you are full of baloney.
It's a perfectly good starting point for casual research. Why do you think otherwise?

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#103692
Oct 6, 2012
 
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
I've noticed that you ignored my post which clearly shows why the SloT simply doesn't apply to evolution. So here it is again.
You're talking about two totally separate things.
Thermodynamics is about energy.
Genetic errors require as much energy as the correct copying of DNA, so there's no difference in entropy hence thermodynamics are irrelevant.
As for genetic mutations, this is where natural selection comes in. Any serious mutation would probably result in a miscarriage or early death of the baby. In this harsh world only the healthiest creatures survive to pass on their genes.
That is not the argument you want to make. Entropy in general has many interdisiplinary applications, statistical mechanics and information theory for example. Standard textbooks discuss this routinely. For example, Bromberg's Physical Chemistry, 2nd Ed. Or read the Wiki on Entropy, Boltzmann's Entropy Formula, etc.

Each generation of each species is accumulating genetic mutations at the rate of approximately 100 - 300 new ones in humans. We all have them even if we don't show any particular disease. There are numerous recessive ones that is why it's not a good idea to marry your sister.

“That's just MY opinion...”

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#103693
Oct 6, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
No, they are completely different processes. Mendellian genetics explains microevolution and we easily predict and observe the genetic variation. Macroevolution is the notion that lots of micro can cause an organism to change into a different kind of organism over vast periods of time but there isn't any evidence to support it. There is no known mechanism for it occur, i.e., genetic mutations can not create some new or nascent limb or organ. Entropy also prevents systems from becoming more organized. Macroevolution is a dead theory and is a big waste of time and money at this point.
What do you propose as the mechanism that drives "microevolutiion"? Does "micro" affect individuals or populations? Are "micro" changes heritable?

I can answer all those question as they concern "macro".

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#103694
Oct 6, 2012
 
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a perfectly good starting point for casual research. Why do you think otherwise?
You didn't provide the reference or a link. New at this I'm guessing?

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#103695
Oct 6, 2012
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you understand the concept of my balls?
Seriously, you try to rewrite almost every field of science, and then you think that I'm the problem.
Maybe if you weren't always concerned about your nutsacks you'd learn something for a change.

dS = k ln We/Ws

dS is the change in entropy; k is the Botzmann's constant; ln is the natural log; We is the number of equivalent micro states (possible arrangments) of the energy and Ws is the number of equivalent micro states of the system.

Here is the bottom line and think of examples in nature and you can see this is always the case:

1. Applying energy to a system in a way that is more random than the system receiving it will increase the entropy of that system.

2. Applying energy to a system in a way that is less random than the system receiving it will decrease the entropy of that system.

DNA has an extrememly low randomness, i.e., it is highly complex and consequently has very, very low Ws. So although all the machinations of a healthy, thriving living cell are doing everything they can to preserve it, and it is probably closed to balanced (if properly fed nutriants, sun, water, etc.), it is slowly deteriorating over time as a whole as shown in the population genetics and accumulating mutations, and as we see in aging, death, and decomposition.

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#103696
Oct 6, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not the argument you want to make.
[/QUOTE}

It's not the argument you want me to make.

[QUOTE who="Urban Cowboy"]Entropy in general has many interdisiplinary applications, statistical mechanics and information theory for example. Standard textbooks discuss this routinely. For example, Bromberg's Physical Chemistry, 2nd Ed. Or read the Wiki on Entropy, Boltzmann's Entropy Formula, etc.
[/QUOTE}

But what's that got to do with copying mistakes in DNA?
The same amount of energy is used making an error as making a perfect copy. So there is no difference in entropy.

[QUOTE who="Urban Cowboy"]
Each generation of each species is accumulating genetic mutations at the rate of approximately 100 - 300 new ones in humans. We all have them even if we don't show any particular disease. There are numerous recessive ones that is why it's not a good idea to marry your sister.
And natural selection (life) weeds out the dangerous mutations leaving only the harmless or beneficial.

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#103697
Oct 6, 2012
 
MADRONE wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you propose as the mechanism that drives "microevolutiion"? Does "micro" affect individuals or populations? Are "micro" changes heritable?
I can answer all those question as they concern "macro".
Mendellian genetics. The built-in design of the genome allows for a tremendous amount of flexibility within species or kind. Take every human being alive today and analyze the range of sizes, shapes, and color. But there isn't anybody starting to develop feathers or scales or blowholes.

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#103698
Oct 6, 2012
 
Oops! Post corrected.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not the argument you want to make.
It's not the argument you want me to make.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Entropy in general has many interdisiplinary applications, statistical mechanics and information theory for example. Standard textbooks discuss this routinely. For example, Bromberg's Physical Chemistry, 2nd Ed. Or read the Wiki on Entropy, Boltzmann's Entropy Formula, etc.
But what's that got to do with copying mistakes in DNA?
The same amount of energy is used making an error as making a perfect copy. So there is no difference in entropy.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Each generation of each species is accumulating genetic mutations at the rate of approximately 100 - 300 new ones in humans. We all have them even if we don't show any particular disease. There are numerous recessive ones that is why it's not a good idea to marry your sister.
And natural selection (life) weeds out the dangerous mutations leaving only the harmless or beneficial.

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#103699
Oct 6, 2012
 
Igor Trip wrote:
And natural selection (life) weeds out the dangerous mutations leaving only the harmless or beneficial.
The harmful genetic mutations continue to accumulate in the genome and can quickly surface when inbreeding so is just a matter of time when they accumulate too far and genetic meltdown occurs. We see this happen in nature often. Besides the accumulating mutations, we also age, die, and decompose.

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#103700
Oct 6, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
The harmful genetic mutations continue to accumulate in the genome and can quickly surface when inbreeding so is just a matter of time when they accumulate too far and genetic meltdown occurs. We see this happen in nature often. Besides the accumulating mutations, we also age, die, and decompose.
In the wild inbreeding will result in weak animals that will die or fail to breed and so the bad mutations will die out, healthy ones will survive.
MIDutch

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#103701
Oct 6, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Reached new lows I see. Lying and trash talking. Pathetic.
Everyone outside of your bronze age, goat herder FAIRY TALE cult knows who the LIARS are.

Heck, you "fundie xristian creotards" just can't help yourselves. Your whole world-view is based on LIES: "The Bible is "literally and inerrantly" true and everything that contradicts a "literal and inerrant Bible" is false."

Yeah, right. Let the LYING begin.

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#103702
Oct 6, 2012
 
Psychology wrote:
You claim mass dictates gravity, is that right?

Science
Newton
Einstein
QM

All understand that mass produces the effect of gravitation.

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#103703
Oct 6, 2012
 
Psychology wrote:
Then tell us why the mass of Uranus is 14.537 times greater than earth and yet, it has only 91% of earths gravity?
It's revolution rate around the sun is very slow, at 2.59 km/s, compared to earths, 29.8 km/s.
My hypothesis still stands.

You have not listened to anything we have tried to teach you.

Gravity decreases as an inverse square of the distance from the center of the object producing gravity. How many times have we said this or a reasonable facsimile of this???? More time than I care to count!

On Uranus you are many times further away from the center than we are on earth.

Anything lighting up in that warped brain of yours??

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#103704
Oct 6, 2012
 
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah this really did not dawn on me for years. Exactly WHAT stops "micro" from becoming "macro"? Have Creationists ever given even a hint of a reply to this?
Yes, it does seem that creationists would prefer to see microevolution and macroevolution as two distinct processes. But it is more logical to see it as just one process, with each generation of each species in constant transition.
Urban Cowboy

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#103705
Oct 6, 2012
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry but false. There are multiple mechanism for evolution. Try googling "mechanisms of evolution"
<quoted text>
Sorry, again false. The world is replete with transitionals.
Now go in front of mirror and slap yourself real hard. The complexity and fine tuning throughout life and the universe are very imaginary.
Nope, you are mistaken.
Urban Cowboy

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#103706
Oct 6, 2012
 
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
In the wild inbreeding will result in weak animals that will die or fail to breed and so the bad mutations will die out, healthy ones will survive.
Until there are no more healthy ones, then genetic meltdown and extinction.
Urban Cowboy

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#103707
Oct 6, 2012
 
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>
Everyone outside of your bronze age, goat herder FAIRY TALE cult knows who the LIARS are.
Heck, you "fundie xristian creotards" just can't help yourselves. Your whole world-view is based on LIES: "The Bible is "literally and inerrantly" true and everything that contradicts a "literal and inerrant Bible" is false."
Yeah, right. Let the LYING begin.
You're all talk Dutch.

“Wear white at night.”

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#103708
Oct 6, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not the argument you want to make. Entropy in general has many interdisiplinary applications, statistical mechanics and information theory for example. Standard textbooks discuss this routinely. For example, Bromberg's Physical Chemistry, 2nd Ed. Or read the Wiki on Entropy, Boltzmann's Entropy Formula, etc.
Each generation of each species is accumulating genetic mutations at the rate of approximately 100 - 300 new ones in humans. We all have them even if we don't show any particular disease. There are numerous recessive ones that is why it's not a good idea to marry your sister.
What is the entropy of a shrubbery? Show us the math.

You wouldn't want folks to think you're full of shít. Would you?

“I am Sisyphus”

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#103709
Oct 6, 2012
 
Psychology wrote:
Every text book in the world is wrong about mass and gravity, as Uranus vs earth proves.

No, you are wrong again, as I just proved.

Look at the formula for gravity here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_o...

Note the bottom term is r^2 (or radius squared). So gravity is a function of the distance from the center of mass.

I don't know how to make this more clear.

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