The CO2 fantasy

[Cousin Jethro]

Brian_G wrote:

The only way to tell if a theory is valid is to test it. Science is advanced by experimental tests, not faith. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that untested theories are unproven, what other criterion is there?
Science isn't a popularity contests, consensus is meaningless, one experimental test is all it takes. You can pretend your pseudo science is valid, but you can't fool anyone who demands a demonstration, test or trial before we change our economy to fit your idiot ideas.

If you hadn't noticed, the experimentation has been ongoing for over a hundred years; the results are currently available at:

http://climate.jpl.nasa.gov/

If you note the pop-up banner, you will see present, updated observations.

By the way, the Congress have passed their Cap & Trade Measure, and the G8 have agreed upon some measures too -- so it looks like the political world is going on without you, Brian -- that would be in addition to the scientific world which left you behind about 100 years ago

[Brian_G]

If you don't know what an experiment is, try Google.

[Cousin Jethro]

Brian_G wrote:

If you don't know what an experiment is, try Google.

yes, Google is an example of an experiment that worked -- didn't Al Gore invent it?(just kidding) Breathing is an experience that can be an experiment -- have you tried breathing pure CO2 for a while? Let us know what your instruments say -- or perhaps you can refer to the Mengele ones -- he worked with CO2 for a while, didn't he?

[NobodyYouKnow]

Cousin Jethro wrote:

And don't forget, boys and girls, we made a difference in the ozone problem by converting our air conditioning methods

And wonder of wonders, the collapse of te economy predicted by the 'doomsayers' didn't happen. Instead, the Montreal Protocol drove a boom in design and efficiency of refrigeration.

[Fun Facts]

NobodyYouKnow wrote:

<quoted text>
And wonder of wonders, the collapse of te economy predicted by the 'doomsayers' didn't happen. Instead, the Montreal Protocol drove a boom in design and efficiency of refrigeration.

Do you have a reference for the "the collapse of te economy predicted by the 'doomsayers' ". I lived through the Ozone hole discovery and the invention of the 'pump' to prevent it's expansion. I do not remember anyone predicting economic collapse. No one wanted to tax us for the ozone hole, so preventative measures were readily accepted by the public.

[truthist]

Fun Facts wrote:

<quoted text> No one wanted to tax us for the ozone hole, so preventative measures were readily accepted by the public.

Really?? Read this;

Disparage scientists, saying they are playing up uncertain predictions of doom in order to get research funding.

One CFC industry magazine stated in 1975, "The whole area of research grants and the competition among scientists to get them must be considered a factor in the politics of ozone" (Roan, 1985). A publication by the conservative think tank, The Cato Institute, argued that NASA's 1992 warnings of a potential ozone hole opening up over the Northern Hemisphere "were exquisitely timed to bolster the agency's budget requests" (Bailey, 1993).
http://www.wunderground.com/education/ozone_s ...

http://www.topix.net/news/global-warming/2009...

[Fun Facts]

truthist wrote:

<quoted text>Really?? Read this;
Disparage scientists, saying they are playing up uncertain predictions of doom in order to get research funding.
One CFC industry magazine stated in 1975, "The whole area of research grants and the competition among scientists to get them must be considered a factor in the politics of ozone" (Roan, 1985). A publication by the conservative think tank, The Cato Institute, argued that NASA's 1992 warnings of a potential ozone hole opening up over the Northern Hemisphere "were exquisitely timed to bolster the agency's budget requests" (Bailey, 1993).
http://www.wunderground.com/education/ozone_s ...
http://www.topix.net/news/global-warming/2009...

WOW, "NASA's 1992 warnings of a potential ozone hole opening up over the Northern Hemisphere "were exquisitely timed to bolster the agency's budget requests".

I don't doubt that NASA created a perceived threat to increase it's budget. Survival is the first instinct of man and organizations. My statement was that no one wanted to tax us for the ozone hole, as in cap and trade taxes for global warming.

I think NASA may be doing the same thing with AGW as they are cited as doing with the ozone hole. They want more funding, so create a crisis to achieve the goal of more funding.

Thanks for the post.

[NobodyYouKnow]

Fun Facts wrote:

<quoted text>
Do you have a reference for the "the collapse of te economy predicted by the 'doomsayers' ". I lived through the Ozone hole discovery

Every warning of problems, from Y2K, Ozone depletion, Global Warming, etc alway proceeds through stages.

First denial that the science behind it is 'settled'.

Then denial of the consensus opinion bbased on a few 'cranks'.

Then warnings of economic collapse from the costs of action.

Then reliancre on polls that show most people don't understand the problem.

Then claims that action will be defeated.

Then silence as the problem is dealt with and no economic collapse results.

But if you want the scare stories, you need to find old issues of the newspaper. Not many from back in the 1980's are online.

Fun Facts wrote:

<quoted text>
and the invention of the 'pump' to prevent it's expansion.

There is no 'pump' invvolved. The action was to ban 'ozone depleting gased' such as CFCs as regulated by the Montreal Protocol. Industry screamed that it couldn't afford to change and the alternatives would destroy A/C devices.
http://ozone.unep.org/Publications/MP_Handboo...

Fun Facts wrote:

<quoted text>
I do not remember anyone predicting economic collapse.

Your selective memory and wild fantasy facts are entertaining but not taken seriously.

Fun Facts wrote:

<quoted text>
No one wanted to tax us for the ozone hole, so preventative measures were readily accepted by the public.

The issue was use of CFCs so no. it wasn't a tax, just as cap and trade is market economics and not a tax either. A rebateable carbon tax would be much better and less cost to the consumer than artificial 'price' manipulation such as C&T.

[truthist]

On Nasa and the ozone hole... A French team in the south pole made measurements of the ozone hole after the first shuttle launch. Nasa had to get involved because they are the ones who launch the space shuttle.

It is obvious that they would also want to study the other pole to compare. The scientific method requires this.

That would have been an addition to the Nasa's work scope and thus more funding to pay for the extra work.

[Cousin Jethro]

NobodyYouKnow wrote:

<quoted text>
Every warning of problems, from Y2K, Ozone depletion, Global Warming, etc alway proceeds through stages.
First denial that the science behind it is 'settled'.
Then denial of the consensus opinion bbased on a few 'cranks'.
Then warnings of economic collapse from the costs of action.
Then reliancre on polls that show most people don't understand the problem.
Then claims that action will be defeated.
Then silence as the problem is dealt with and no economic collapse results.
But if you want the scare stories, you need to find old issues of the newspaper. Not many from back in the 1980's are online.
<quoted text>
There is no 'pump' invvolved. The action was to ban 'ozone depleting gased' such as CFCs as regulated by the Montreal Protocol. Industry screamed that it couldn't afford to change and the alternatives would destroy A/C devices.
http://ozone.unep.org/Publications/MP_Handboo...
<quoted text>
Your selective memory and wild fantasy facts are entertaining but not taken seriously.
<quoted text>
The issue was use of CFCs so no. it wasn't a tax, just as cap and trade is market economics and not a tax either. A rebateable carbon tax would be much better and less cost to the consumer than artificial 'price' manipulation such as C&T.

My favorite Y2K story came out of GE, which had some millions spent on glitch-preventive contractor programming: the sole crisis they experienced came from some of the defensive software designed to prevent the error it caused...the science world has moved on since them but we keep forgetting the world of political science and its bogus expense projects, for which I provide this reminder:

http://www.costofwar.com/

Your quibbles with the pence of cap & trade are overshadowed by the corruptions we continue to support in other industries

[Fair Game]

Fun Facts wrote:

I do not remember anyone predicting economic collapse.

Predict dire economic consequences, and ignore the cost benefits.

The CEO of Pennwalt, the third largest CFC manufacturer in the U.S., talked of "economic chaos" if CFC use was to be phased out (Cogan, 1988). DuPont, the largest CFC manufacturer, warned that the costs in the U.S. alone could exceed $135 billion, and that "entire industries could fold" (Glas, 1989). The Association of European Chemical Companies warned that CFC regulation might lead to "redesign and re-equipping of large sectors of vital industry..., smaller firms going out of business... and an effect on inflation and unemployment, nationally and internationally" (Stockholm Environment Institute, 1999).

http://www.wunderground.com/education/ozone_s...

[Fair Game]

Fun Facts wrote:

<quoted text>
WOW, "NASA's 1992 warnings of a potential ozone hole opening up over the Northern Hemisphere "were exquisitely timed to bolster the agency's budget requests".
I don't doubt that NASA created a perceived threat to increase it's budget. Survival is the first instinct of man and organizations. My statement was that no one wanted to tax us for the ozone hole, as in cap and trade taxes for global warming.
I think NASA may be doing the same thing with AGW as they are cited as doing with the ozone hole. They want more funding, so create a crisis to achieve the goal of more funding.
Thanks for the post.

You're misreading the piece: the CATO institute argued that, but they were of course talking rubbish, just as they do ow over AGW.

[Brian_G]

What a crock, CFCs are banned but the Ozone hole remains. So much for that theory.

[truthist]

Brian_G wrote:

What a crock, CFCs are banned but the Ozone hole remains. So much for that theory.

Back to my comment on the space shuttle launches. Now other countries like India are launching rockets in addition to the visits to International Space Station AND military and satellite launches.

This problem has grown bigger while the CFCs were banned.

[MattJ]

Fair Game wrote:

<quoted text>
<quoted text>
http://www.wunderground.com/education/ozone_s...

Certainly an interesting link. It says:

"a handful of skeptics, their voices greatly amplified by the public relations machines of powerful corporations and politicians sympathetic to them, succeeded in delaying imposition of controls on CFCs for many years."

This is certainly enough to justify the claim that industry resists the necessary change, but NOT enough to justify the claim that the industry predicted economic collapse. Nobody claimed economic collapse would happen just because of a threat to the CFC industries.

[Pokay1kaduB]

Cousin Jethro wrote:

<quoted text>
My favorite Y2K story came out of GE, which had some millions spent on glitch-preventive contractor programming: the sole crisis they experienced came from some of the defensive software designed to prevent the error it caused...the science world has moved on since them but we keep forgetting the world of political science and its bogus expense projects, for which I provide this reminder:
http://www.costofwar.com/
Your quibbles with the pence of cap & trade are overshadowed by the corruptions we continue to support in other industries

Interesting link, puts a real perspective on the idea of overspending.

Far as cap & trade, depends what day of the week, who you hear it from, or how it's put, but sometimes it sounds good sometimes it doesn't. Without incentive there will be no change. However how are we to know they are not just trying to drum up more funds for continued overspending?

I think the US military should be the first to have to limit their use of oil. When they show that they are conserving,(only using their force for necessary actions/causes) then maybe the public can be asked to do the same.

Something needs done, no question we need to find a way off fossil fuel but something still smells fishy. Though I would agree if everyone did their part to stay out of the corruption trap, if money was all properly allocated and managed,(yeah right), then we wouldn't be in this economic mess and this AGW thing might go over more smoothly.

Funny how overspending seems like a virus that infects all equally, whether ordinary citizen or government entity. Does every/anyone need a mansion with two furnaces and a fuse panel the size of a refrigerator, that takes a small forest to build each one? Soon we'll be bulldozing the big houses down and building smaller again.

During times of prosperity we just buy buy buy and borrow more, and now it's time for the negative part of the sine wave/curve/cycle, time to pay for the foolishness. Still waiting for the gov't/military to show us by example how to start making up for it.

Isn't it kind of like driving in expressway traffic? Traffic is at a standstill and as soon as it shows signs of movement, everyone races to try to get ahead only to screech to a halt again. We are at the point of 'screeching to a halt', and waiting for someone to make a move. Difference is in traffic as soon as we see an opening we take it, now that we are at a standstill financially, we might not go for the 'first opening'. Maybe a middle position of nice and easy/steady forward progress while leaving room in between bumpers would result in an overall faster/easier/safer travel time?

"there it is, go get it"
"na you go get it"
"ok we both go get it, on three, ready?...one....two...."

[Fair Game]

Brian_G wrote:

What a crock, CFCs are banned but the Ozone hole remains. So much for that theory.

Your ignorant denial is an insult to the whole of humanity- at least those people who recognised the CFC problem and worked together to solve it.

The Montreal Protocol is working, and ozone depletion due to human effects is expected to start decreasing in the next 10 years. Observations show that levels of ozone depleting gases at a maximum now and are beginning to decline. Provided the Montreal Protocol is followed, the Antarctic ozone hole is expected to disappear by 2050.

http://www.wunderground.com/education/holefaq...

[Cousin Jethro]

Fair Game wrote:

<quoted text>
Your ignorant denial is an insult to the whole of humanity- at least those people who recognised the CFC problem and worked together to solve it.
<quoted text>
http://www.wunderground.com/education/holefaq...

Now, now, you're talking to a blank wall -- remember, Brian is still looking for assurance that there is a subject called, "science," he's a little slow :-)

[owenpaste]

== Is Swine Flu Another 911?
It hit me last night that the 2009 swine flu was ‘released’ 91 years and 1 month (to the date) after the Spanish flu virus of March 1918. Or 911.
Also, has anyone noted how apocalyptic the claims of one third of the world’s population being infected sounds, bearing in mind the things written in the Book of Revelation of one third of this and one third of that? Is this yet another sign from God?

When John the beloved talks about all the things befalling mankind in the last days (floods, plague, earthquake, famine, wars and rumors of wars etc) he says all these things happened, but still man did not repent. Swine flu is another calling card and wake-up call to the nations – get right with God or worse is to come.

[owenpaste]

North Korea – Another Step Closer to Armageddon?

I’ve been reminded also of another prophecy on this site here of the symbolic ‘black rain’ being poured out on another land (as an act of hostility), which could be an event connected to what North Korea and the United Nations are going to do. The storm cloud in Asia is obvious …. and the ‘black rain’ coming from that cloud also, it is quite clear what that could be in terms of nuclear/environmental fallout. Saints, pray!
Could this also be what the warnings about coming world food shortages [eg here] and drinking water pollution etc are about if something really kicks off?God have mercy!I have no desire to frighten anyone, but there are serious events about to befall the world – if not this, then other things to come that God has been warning His people about for some time, and we cannot close our eyes and pretend it is not happening.

People, make preparations where you can - get in extra stocks of food where possible and don’t bury your head in the sand. I have no desire to frighten people either but if you ever heard the transcripts /accounts of Hiroshima survivors they mentioned black rain which obviously turned out to be radioactive and dirty.What black rain literally being black? How does that happen, all the pollution maybe in the atmosphere and all the smoke and dust rising high even affecting the clouds so the rainwater is black with soot etc, perhaps? Thanks for pointing that out.

I think they said the North Korea test was 20 times stronger than the Horoshima and Nagasaki bomb? Hiroshima was destroyed using a Uranium bomb, Nagasaki was bombed using plutonium. So what is North Korea testing plutonium or uranium? And what’s the difference in terms of devastation? Which is worse? Let’s not forget that the Taliban is near to taking over nuclear Pakistan. Pakistan, N.Korea, Iran have leaders that are either religious fanatics or nuts. Throw in Israel wanting to take out nuclear facilities in Iran and can it be long?I believe we will see great troubles before the year is out on several different fronts. One nuclear bomb goes off and the world economy and financial markets will collapse.

Pretty amazing that they can do nuke testing underground these days. Maybe they should of though about the health risks though. Surely its going to kill people off in the area. Even in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries where Depleted Uranium is used in the bombs people are dying with the Uranium Dust.