The Mormonizing of America

Nov 12, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Deseret News

In this piece from the Huffington Post, Stephen Mansfield describes how Mormons have become prominent in American society and why Americans seem intrigued by the Mormon faith.

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#71
Mar 4, 2013
 
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Let me share with you as best I can the most powerful mystical experience that I have had.
I had just put the baby down for his nap and was sitting on the couch catching my breath before doing the chores that I had to do as the house person in my family.
All of a sudden I had an infinite awareness of all of the entities that exist! I felt the LOVE being shared by all of us and was aware of each and every entity that is sharing eternity with me.
This only lasted a brief time but is the core of what I accept as reality, knowing that this level of consciousness can't be held while focusing on the mundane very well but on the deepest level of my being it is always there.
I don't question that you had an spiritual 'experience'. Many have them.
What I question is why has that person had that specific experience? Has it did any good for them and has the sharing of that experience did any good for any one else? Where did the experience come from? How would I define the experience from hearing about it?

This statement is plausible.. "All of a sudden I had an infinite awareness of all of the entities that exist!" I had an 'awakening' one time when in the fifth grade. I woke one day to see the sun rise and I realized that this would happen till I died, a repetitious rising and setting of the sun. It sorely depressed me for days. Than one day I had a thought that the rising and the setting of the sun were good things in my world. It gave all of life a chance to live one moment and relax the next. I felt better. But I have always carried an extreme consciousness since than of how unlikely it is that the earth was set in just the most absolute right position by chance, to produce life so that we humans are here to see sunrises and sunsets to define our lives by.
This part of your experience gives me reason to wonder... "..I felt the LOVE being shared by all of us.." Love is usually the last emotion a person will feel for any one they meet. Indifference, not caring, anger, negative emotions are usually what we feel from others. Understand my question? You claim to have felt something, an emotion that isn't within our setting of reality. For me, I judge the relevance of spiritual awakenings to how they compare with our reality. Having a spiritual awakening that doesn't have connections to things happening to or for us are a different type of experience as I define it. An example would be if I had an experience as you did but what I felt was the hate of humanity, not their love. See what I mean?

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#72
Mar 4, 2013
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't question that you had an spiritual 'experience'. Many have them.
What I question is why has that person had that specific experience? Has it did any good for them and has the sharing of that experience did any good for any one else? Where did the experience come from? How would I define the experience from hearing about it?
This statement is plausible.. "All of a sudden I had an infinite awareness of all of the entities that exist!" I had an 'awakening' one time when in the fifth grade. I woke one day to see the sun rise and I realized that this would happen till I died, a repetitious rising and setting of the sun. It sorely depressed me for days. Than one day I had a thought that the rising and the setting of the sun were good things in my world. It gave all of life a chance to live one moment and relax the next. I felt better. But I have always carried an extreme consciousness since than of how unlikely it is that the earth was set in just the most absolute right position by chance, to produce life so that we humans are here to see sunrises and sunsets to define our lives by.
This part of your experience gives me reason to wonder... "..I felt the LOVE being shared by all of us.." Love is usually the last emotion a person will feel for any one they meet. Indifference, not caring, anger, negative emotions are usually what we feel from others. Understand my question? You claim to have felt something, an emotion that isn't within our setting of reality. For me, I judge the relevance of spiritual awakenings to how they compare with our reality. Having a spiritual awakening that doesn't have connections to things happening to or for us are a different type of experience as I define it. An example would be if I had an experience as you did but what I felt was the hate of humanity, not their love. See what I mean?
LOVE is not an emotion, it is a form of consciousness. It can be experienced but not described. GOD is LOVE. This is why the two most important commandments in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures are there. Since we are created in GOD'S image we are also LOVE. Practicing these two commandments helps us to recognize this to be true.

What you are thinking of is conditional love which isn't LOVE at all but is as close as many people ever get consciously to experiencing LOVE in this lifetime as an adult.

I really don't want to discuss anything with you anymore. Since you think I am a liar I would be wasting my time.

I will though point out evidence that contradicts you when you are trying to defend your church if I should happen to come across it.

I am doing this as much as I can to free those trapped in religions based on falsehoods in order that they may experience the truth of their existence.

And again remember, I am not your enemy.

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#73
Mar 4, 2013
 

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Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
<quoted text>
LOVE is not an emotion, it is a form of consciousness. It can be experienced but not described. GOD is LOVE. This is why the two most important commandments in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures are there. Since we are created in GOD'S image we are also LOVE. Practicing these two commandments helps us to recognize this to be true.
What you are thinking of is conditional love which isn't LOVE at all but is as close as many people ever get consciously to experiencing LOVE in this lifetime as an adult.
I really don't want to discuss anything with you anymore. Since you think I am a liar I would be wasting my time.
I will though point out evidence that contradicts you when you are trying to defend your church if I should happen to come across it.
I am doing this as much as I can to free those trapped in religions based on falsehoods in order that they may experience the truth of their existence.
And again remember, I am not your enemy.
Love is defined by us humans as an emotion, something you feel from within that one experiences with the mental consciousness. Just as anger and hate and jealousy etc are all defined as the same, emotions.
Next, it is nice of you to think in terms of an unconditional love, but the reality is that all humans do and judge by conditions, even love.
I know what conditional love is. It is what we all live with and are defined by. There is not a living person that has the mental power to love unconditionally all the time. People can have unconditional love for a moment here or a moment there, but that is all.
Conditional love allows you to be alive this very moment. Because unconditional love would lead you to full nudity and starvation. Why? because unconditional love would have you giving away any and all clothing to others needing what you have that they don't have till even you boxers were given away to leave you naked. And while losing all your clothes and all your belongings because your giving them all away to others that need what you have, you would also give away all your food, even if that meant you had to starve to see others eat and survive. Understand?
True unconditional love would never let yourself say a mean thing to any one. Never to be critical. Never to be negative. True unconditional love would take all you have to be given to all others 24/7/12. True unconditional love would cause you to starve to death in just a short period of time.
Unconditional love is a nice concept but when you set it against reality, our reality, it can't exist as you would like it to. Everything humans do is based on conditional expectations. Even love. You love some one AND IF, and if they love you, you have a complete love between two people. Forfeit one of those two people's love and you no longer have a complete love.

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#76
May 12, 2013
 

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Nope.

Love is how you express yourself to others. In a "LOVING" way.

Oh and here's a lie:

"Conditional love allows you to be alive this very moment. Because unconditional love would lead you to full nudity and starvation. Why? because unconditional love would have you giving away any and all clothing to others needing what you have that they don't have till even you boxers were given away to leave you naked."

Nope.

because you would also love yourself, not merely others.

Unconditional love refers to condition to loving someone, not "giving stuff to them"

You've equated love to "giving", and that is mistake #2
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Love is defined by us humans as an emotion, something you feel from within that one experiences with the mental consciousness. Just as anger and hate and jealousy etc are all defined as the same, emotions.
Next, it is nice of you to think in terms of an unconditional love, but the reality is that all humans do and judge by conditions, even love.
I know what conditional love is. It is what we all live with and are defined by. There is not a living person that has the mental power to love unconditionally all the time. People can have unconditional love for a moment here or a moment there, but that is all.
Conditional love allows you to be alive this very moment. Because unconditional love would lead you to full nudity and starvation. Why? because unconditional love would have you giving away any and all clothing to others needing what you have that they don't have till even you boxers were given away to leave you naked. And while losing all your clothes and all your belongings because your giving them all away to others that need what you have, you would also give away all your food, even if that meant you had to starve to see others eat and survive. Understand?
True unconditional love would never let yourself say a mean thing to any one. Never to be critical. Never to be negative. True unconditional love would take all you have to be given to all others 24/7/12. True unconditional love would cause you to starve to death in just a short period of time.
Unconditional love is a nice concept but when you set it against reality, our reality, it can't exist as you would like it to. Everything humans do is based on conditional expectations. Even love. You love some one AND IF, and if they love you, you have a complete love between two people. Forfeit one of those two people's love and you no longer have a complete love.

“The Pleasure is all MINE”

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#77
May 12, 2013
 

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Lying about Christians below...

You got 5 dimbulbs, 5 nutcases, 5 bad judgements on this one.

Of course, lying does that.
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahhh, but you complicate your own point and don't see it. Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God. Christians also believe they have the right to judge who's a Christian and who isn't a Christian and if the judged one has a right to believe in the Bible or not.
So Christians like yourself have turned yourself into a god and jury, making judgements of others God said were his duty to judge, not your's. But of course you'll disagree and claim God shares his right to judge people with you huh :)
Also, only Christians believe the Bible is the word of God. Jews will disagree and claim the NT isn't the word of God and is the work of men wanting to position themselves as false prophets of God to deceive the very elect.
What you need to do to prove your point, is proving somehow that all the things that God ever had to say or will ever have to say to his children, is contained in a book with a beginning and an ending some 1700 years ago. Can you do that?

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#78
May 12, 2013
 

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Hey, if it's going to be an either/or kind of thing I'd rather have them than the Muslims!

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#79
May 12, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
You've equated love to "giving", and that is mistake #2
<quoted text>
Love is many things. And giving love is showing love which reveals the love or lack of love one feels for another or thing or whatever.
Try not displaying your love to anyone for any resaon for just one week.
Love is revealed through action and facial expressions as one speaks it to another.
You have a lot to learn of love when you have decided what it isn't.

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#80
May 16, 2013
 

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You're the fool talking about loving to a point where you sacrifice yourself through starvation.

You do NOT know what love is.
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Love is many things. And giving love is showing love which reveals the love or lack of love one feels for another or thing or whatever.
Try not displaying your love to anyone for any resaon for just one week.
Love is revealed through action and facial expressions as one speaks it to another.
You have a lot to learn of love when you have decided what it isn't.

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#81
May 17, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
You're the fool talking about loving to a point where you sacrifice yourself through starvation.
You do NOT know what love is.
<quoted text>
lol...and you do? A staunch racist? You do know?...lol
Get this understood. People that try and give the word love a definition or claim it means a specific thing are the ones that know nothing about it.
Love can't be defined you idiot. Love is like the weather, it's a 'thing' that changes in meaning from person to person as to how they define it for themselves.
By the way, non communicated love is non communicated. It remains in the mind. Communicated love is expressed love. Communicating/expressing love is the only way to share/reveal to others what your feeling for something/someone. Get over yourself...you'll never define love because it has no single definition.

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#82
May 17, 2013
 
and yet you TRIED to define it...

Hey tell me this....

Did Joseph Smith do what he did because he loved the people of the world?
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lol...and you do? A staunch racist? You do know?...lol
Get this understood. People that try and give the word love a definition or claim it means a specific thing are the ones that know nothing about it.
Love can't be defined you idiot. Love is like the weather, it's a 'thing' that changes in meaning from person to person as to how they define it for themselves.
By the way, non communicated love is non communicated. It remains in the mind. Communicated love is expressed love. Communicating/expressing love is the only way to share/reveal to others what your feeling for something/someone. Get over yourself...you'll never define love because it has no single definition.

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#83
May 17, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
and yet you TRIED to define it...
Hey tell me this....
Did Joseph Smith do what he did because he loved the people of the world?
<quoted text>
Wrong as usual. I explained how others viewed love and I explained how one experienced love through physical/verbal expressions of it. But I never defined it. Like a sunrise or a sunset, It will never have a single definition to go by.
Of your question, why don't you read the writings of Smith and decide for yourself.

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#84
May 19, 2013
 
Yea I did

So you answer the question

Did Smith say these things because he loved the people of the world so much?

YOU tell US
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong as usual. I explained how others viewed love and I explained how one experienced love through physical/verbal expressions of it. But I never defined it. Like a sunrise or a sunset, It will never have a single definition to go by.
Of your question, why don't you read the writings of Smith and decide for yourself.

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#85
May 20, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
Yea I did
So you answer the question
Did Smith say these things because he loved the people of the world so much?
YOU tell US
<quoted text>
lol...nooooooooooo.....I don't know Smith's thoughts. But you claim YOU DO. You claim to know his thoughts, his reasonings, his logic, his purposes, his judgements, his intimate thoughts, by golly I'd bet you even know how big his craps were!
You're going to answer your own question anyway since you knew Smith so intimately and declare all his thoughts are what you say they are... waiting....

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#86
May 21, 2013
 
When you love someone

YOU TELL THEM

There is not one post, page, sermon, anyting where he's saying,(you know being the new prophet, better than Jesus.

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet ... " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

and here is what JESUS and the APOSTLES warns us about boasting about ourselves:

James 4:16 (KJV)
But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Romans 2:23 (KJV)
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

2 Corinthians 10:16 (KJV)
To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lol...nooooooooooo.....I don't know Smith's thoughts. But you claim YOU DO. You claim to know his thoughts, his reasonings, his logic, his purposes, his judgements, his intimate thoughts, by golly I'd bet you even know how big his craps were!
You're going to answer your own question anyway since you knew Smith so intimately and declare all his thoughts are what you say they are... waiting....

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#87
May 22, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
There is not one post, page, sermon, anyting where he's saying,(you know being the new prophet, better than Jesus.
I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet ... " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).
and here is what JESUS and the APOSTLES warns us about boasting about ourselves:
Now read it in context. Smith wasn't making a boast in the normal sense of the word. He used that word because Paul did. Smith was comparing the many persecutions he went through to the many Paul also suffered. Smith wasn't boasting to just be bragging, he was making a statement he believed was true. And the only way to understand what he said in how he was saying it, you have to 'pretend' for a moment to believe he was a prophet to judge his words accordingly. Understand?

Address of the Prophet - His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo.

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

page 409

of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.

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#88
May 22, 2013
 
I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet ... " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

You're right.

It's far more self aggrandizing! He made no mention of any persecution, by the way he did NOT go through more persecution than Paul or Jesus. That's patently clear. And it's rediculous to think that Smith "thought" it was true, because look at the other statements, which were clearly false.

"I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam."

No he's not!

Not even during his lifetime by the time he made that SPEECH!
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Now read it in context. Smith wasn't making a boast in the normal sense of the word. He used that word because Paul did. Smith was comparing the many persecutions he went through to the many Paul also suffered. Smith wasn't boasting to just be bragging, he was making a statement he believed was true. And the only way to understand what he said in how he was saying it, you have to 'pretend' for a moment to believe he was a prophet to judge his words accordingly. Understand?
Address of the Prophet - His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo.
President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.
God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days
page 409
of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.

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#89
May 22, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet ... " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).
You're right.
It's far more self aggrandizing! He made no mention of any persecution, by the way he did NOT go through more persecution than Paul or Jesus. That's patently clear. And it's rediculous to think that Smith "thought" it was true, because look at the other statements, which were clearly false.
"I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam."
No he's not!
Not even during his lifetime by the time he made that SPEECH!
<quoted text>
Sometimes I really wish you'd have an intelligent statement for me to reply to instead of pointing out your pathetic lies and twists.
Smith did keep his church together up to the day he died, scholars recognize that historical fact, even if you disagree. Young took what Smith had developed and keeping everything as it was he led the same church. When he died another took Youngs place and so forth up to today with Monson at the helm. Smith's church still exists today. So your a liar saying he didn't keep his church together.
You're a twisted liar stating Smith compared his persecutions to Paul AND JESUS. But that only proves you like to lie to make a point. Smith compared his persecutions to Paul, not to Jesus liar.
And he made no mention of any persecution(s) that he went through so to you that means he went through none? Are you that much of a real stupid idiot? Do you know that you have just proved you have read nothing of Smith's life.
Nice job as usual.

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#90
May 23, 2013
 
Smith spent maybe (and I'll be VERY GENEROUS) 15 years.

Now, you are saying he kept his church together better than Jesus did?

Jesus church remained together for over a hundred years. In fact, there wasn't a break in the Christian church until after the 300s. Oh you want to bring up some kind of apostacy? Yes, we know, the Muslims claim it was what caused modern Christianity to prevail over their notion (not yours) of Jesus teaching their religion first. Sound familiar?

No Jesus church stayed together much longer than 15 years.

Furthermore, Paul suffered far MORE than the Panty Raid. And it's such a silly disrespectful joke for you to take seriously Panty's proclamations with any kind of seriousness to compare to Jesus or Paul.

Oh are you OFFENDED? Panty suffered more than Paul and his Pantychurch kept together longer than Jesus?

Is that REALLY what you are trying to teach? Well both are wrong.

Panty's church schismed in 1845, right after he died.
Jesus church remained from his death all the way past for at least 100 years (I'm not considering that different denominations are evidence of the church breaking up, but I'll play along with you on it just to destroy any hope you might have).

And in fact, Smith
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Sometimes I really wish you'd have an intelligent statement for me to reply to instead of pointing out your pathetic lies and twists.
Smith did keep his church together up to the day he died, scholars recognize that historical fact, even if you disagree. Young took what Smith had developed and keeping everything as it was he led the same church. When he died another took Youngs place and so forth up to today with Monson at the helm. Smith's church still exists today. So your a liar saying he didn't keep his church together.
You're a twisted liar stating Smith compared his persecutions to Paul AND JESUS. But that only proves you like to lie to make a point. Smith compared his persecutions to Paul, not to Jesus liar.
And he made no mention of any persecution(s) that he went through so to you that means he went through none? Are you that much of a real stupid idiot? Do you know that you have just proved you have read nothing of Smith's life.
Nice job as usual.

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#91
May 24, 2013
 
osirica wrote:
Smith spent maybe (and I'll be VERY GENEROUS) 15 years.
Now, you are saying he kept his church together better than Jesus did?
Jesus church remained together for over a hundred years.
Why are you so ignorant? You continue to prove you know little of whatever it is you may read concerning theism and that you understand next to nothing of what little you do read.
Smith didn't put a timeline on anything he claimed. He was making a statement no matter if we agree or disagree with it's content.
Smith kept his church together up to the day he died.
Jesus's church fell away at his imprisonment. The apostle(s) denied their affiliation with Jesus and his church to save their cowardly lives. They didn't have a clue of what to do. After jesus's death, they went back to not believing in a resurrection. They didn't believe Jesus would take on a body and come back after his death. The church was a shambles and no apostles at it's helm.
That is what Smith was referencing of comparison. Because when Jesus came back from the dead in a body, he forgave the apostles their sins and trespasses of lies and doubts and he set together his church a second time literally from scratch as he did the first time. He began to re-teach the disciples all he had taught them prior to his death.
Then Jesus left to heaven. Then the apostles one by one were killed off and or were imprisoned and died. The church was no more. There were disciples here and there like there are today, teaching their own comprehension of jesus and his gospel and went by different names. But the church built by jesus with all it's offices and positions ceased to exist.
Bishops and maybe deacons continued to exist in different lands teaching different opinions of the gospel and what it meant ton them for the next two centuries.
The church Smith created, he held it together to the day he died and a successor held it together after his death and to this day.
The apostles were killed off after Jesus's death. His original church according to Christians today doesn't exist.

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#92
May 24, 2013
 
And his statement was wrong. Period. He knew it at the time. He wasn't concerned about telling the truth. He just said crap. It's called "hacking" on the pulpit.

If I recall, Joseph Smith excommunicated Oliver Cowdry or someone in his church inner circle.

owdery and the Whitmers became known as "the dissenters," but they continued to live in and around Far West, where they owned a great deal of property. On June 17, 1838, President Sidney Rigdon announced to a large Mormon congregation that the dissenters were "as salt that had lost its savor" and that it was the duty of the faithful to cast them out "to be trodden beneath the feet of men." Cowdery and the Whitmers, taking this Salt Sermon as a threat against their lives and as an implicit instruction to the Danites, a secret vigilante group, fled the county. Stories about their treatment circulated in nearby non-Mormon communities and increased the tension that led to the 1838 Mormon War.

and this false statement of yours:

"Then Jesus left to heaven. Then the apostles one by one were killed off and or were imprisoned and died. The church was no more. There were disciples here and there like there are today, teaching their own comprehension of jesus and his gospel and went by different names. But the church built by jesus with all it's offices and positions ceased to exist."

Proven by the fact that we can see the line of succession in the church of Rome, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, unbroken.

None of this crap you say is true. It's your excuse. Firstly you can't even specify how it's true. Yea they were killed and died. Them DYING is bound to happen. Secondly, how in the world is Mormonism going to be any different in that regard? Thirdly "offices" and teachings of Christ obviously were not lost, for even you stupid Mormons try to claim you believe in the same princinples...

Oh that is, except for the polytheistic paganism (multiple gods), which was not a teaching of Christ nor of the Jews.
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you so ignorant? You continue to prove you know little of whatever it is you may read concerning theism and that you understand next to nothing of what little you do read.
Smith didn't put a timeline on anything he claimed. He was making a statement no matter if we agree or disagree with it's content.
Smith kept his church together up to the day he died.
Jesus's church fell away at his imprisonment. The apostle(s) denied their affiliation with Jesus and his church to save their cowardly lives. They didn't have a clue of what to do. After jesus's death, they went back to not believing in a resurrection. They didn't believe Jesus would take on a body and come back after his death. The church was a shambles and no apostles at it's helm.
That is what Smith was referencing of comparison. Because when Jesus came back from the dead in a body, he forgave the apostles their sins and trespasses of lies and doubts and he set together his church a second time literally from scratch as he did the first time. He began to re-teach the disciples all he had taught them prior to his death.
Then Jesus left to heaven. Then the apostles one by one were killed off and or were imprisoned and died. The church was no more. There were disciples here and there like there are today, teaching their own comprehension of jesus and his gospel and went by different names. But the church built by jesus with all it's offices and positions ceased to exist.
Bishops and maybe deacons continued to exist in different lands teaching different opinions of the gospel and what it meant ton them for the next two centuries.
The church Smith created, he held it together to the day he died and a successor held it together after his death and to this day.
The apostles were killed off after Jesus's death. His original church according to Christians today doesn't exist.

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