'I'm a Gun Owner but . . .'

'I'm a Gun Owner but . . .'

There are 197 comments on the Alphecca story from Dec 5, 2011, titled 'I'm a Gun Owner but . . .'. In it, Alphecca reports that:

In Tennessee, another of those gun owners who would like to see additional controls put on them.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Alphecca.

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“Now thats a tin hat!”

Since: Oct 07

Blue Ridge Mountains

#1 Dec 5, 2011
With ignorant friends like that, who needs enemies.

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#2 Dec 5, 2011
My comments on quotes taken from the article and comments on it:

“Statistics do not bear him out. Only a very small fraction of guns sold at gun shows ever wind up being used in crimes.” To paraphrase the talking point from the Reich-wing voter suppression crowd: If there is a SINGLE instance of voter fraud, that’s one too many. If a single gun bought at a gun show is ever used in a crime, that’s one too many!
BTW: There are NO statics to bear out his unsupported assumption

“(because I’m ornery, not evil)” and PARANOID!

“The gun shows around here used to be good for getting decently price guns, but not so much any more.” Just the free market working….NRA hate-mongering just adding to the supply/demand fervor that makes it easier for the sellers to take advantage of paranoid gun nuts.

And YEAH - GUN NUTS ARE!

“Orwell said this would happen.”

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#3 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
My comments on quotes taken from the article and comments on it:
“Statistics do not bear him out. Only a very small fraction of guns sold at gun shows ever wind up being used in crimes.” To paraphrase the talking point from the Reich-wing voter suppression crowd: If there is a SINGLE instance of voter fraud, that’s one too many. If a single gun bought at a gun show is ever used in a crime, that’s one too many!
BTW: There are NO statics to bear out his unsupported assumption
“(because I’m ornery, not evil)” and PARANOID!
“The gun shows around here used to be good for getting decently price guns, but not so much any more.” Just the free market working….NRA hate-mongering just adding to the supply/demand fervor that makes it easier for the sellers to take advantage of paranoid gun nuts.
And YEAH - GUN NUTS ARE!
So you believe that a single instance of voter fraud is one too many?
Real American

Bell City, MO

#4 Dec 5, 2011
ANY gun control aimed at law-abiding citizens "infringe" our our rights thus are unconstitutional, INCLUDING gun registration requirements.

“Now thats a tin hat!”

Since: Oct 07

Blue Ridge Mountains

#5 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
My comments on quotes taken from the article and comments on it:
“Statistics do not bear him out. Only a very small fraction of guns sold at gun shows ever wind up being used in crimes.” To paraphrase the talking point from the Reich-wing voter suppression crowd: If there is a SINGLE instance of voter fraud, that’s one too many. If a single gun bought at a gun show is ever used in a crime, that’s one too many!
BTW: There are NO statics to bear out his unsupported assumption
“(because I’m ornery, not evil)” and PARANOID!
“The gun shows around here used to be good for getting decently price guns, but not so much any more.” Just the free market working….NRA hate-mongering just adding to the supply/demand fervor that makes it easier for the sellers to take advantage of paranoid gun nuts.
And YEAH - GUN NUTS ARE!
Kind of hard to tell from this post, but I tyake it you are more afraid of your fellow law abiding citizens than criminals and politicans.

Why do well meaning people like you always try to solve the wrong problems, at the expense of the innocent?

Since: Oct 11

Austin, Texas

#6 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
My comments on quotes taken from the article and comments on it:
“Statistics do not bear him out. Only a very small fraction of guns sold at gun shows ever wind up being used in crimes.” To paraphrase the talking point from the Reich-wing voter suppression crowd: If there is a SINGLE instance of voter fraud, that’s one too many. If a single gun bought at a gun show is ever used in a crime, that’s one too many!
BTW: There are NO statics to bear out his unsupported assumption
“(because I’m ornery, not evil)” and PARANOID!
“The gun shows around here used to be good for getting decently price guns, but not so much any more.” Just the free market working….NRA hate-mongering just adding to the supply/demand fervor that makes it easier for the sellers to take advantage of paranoid gun nuts.
And YEAH - GUN NUTS ARE!
There are statistics.

Gun Shows Are Not a Source of “Crime Guns”

• A 2006 FBI study of criminals who attacked law enforcement officers found that within their sample,“None of the [attackers’] rifles, shotguns, or handguns … were obtained from gun shows or related activities.” Ninety-seven percent of guns in the study were obtained illegally, and the assailants interviewed had nothing but contempt for gun laws. As one offender put it,“[T]he 8,000 new gun laws would have made absolutely [no difference], whatsoever, about me getting a gun.… I never went into a gun store or to a gun show or to a pawn shop or anyplace else where firearms are legally bought and sold.”4

• A Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that fewer than 1% of U.S.“crime guns” came from gun shows, with repeat offenders even less likely than first-timers to buy guns from any retail source. This 2001 study was based on interviews with 18,000 state prison inmates and is the largest such study ever conducted by the government.5

• Previous federal studies have found few criminals using gun shows. A 2000 BJS study,“Federal Firearms Offenders, 1992-98,” found only 1.7% of federal prison inmates obtained their gun from a gun show.6 Similarly, a 1997 National Institute of Justice study reported less than 2% of criminals’ guns come from gun shows.7

Wrong again.

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#7 Dec 5, 2011
M Pearce wrote:
<quoted text>
So you believe that a single instance of voter fraud is one too many?
Nope - Just using the STUPID arguments I hear from the voter suppression crowd.

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#8 Dec 5, 2011
Real American wrote:
ANY gun control aimed at law-abiding citizens "infringe" our our rights thus are unconstitutional, INCLUDING gun registration requirements.
Not according to SCOTUS & Fat Tony Scallia.

“Orwell said this would happen.”

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#9 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
<quoted text>Nope - Just using the STUPID arguments I hear from the voter suppression crowd.
If it is a stupid argument when used by the voter I.D. folks, why isn't it a stupid argument when you use it?

“Tu ne cede malis”

Since: Dec 06

Lots of different places

#10 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
My comments on quotes taken from the article and comments on it:
“Statistics do not bear him out. Only a very small fraction of guns sold at gun shows ever wind up being used in crimes.” To paraphrase the talking point from the Reich-wing voter suppression crowd: If there is a SINGLE instance of voter fraud, that’s one too many. If a single gun bought at a gun show is ever used in a crime, that’s one too many!
BTW: There are NO statics to bear out his unsupported assumption
“(because I’m ornery, not evil)” and PARANOID!
“The gun shows around here used to be good for getting decently price guns, but not so much any more.” Just the free market working….NRA hate-mongering just adding to the supply/demand fervor that makes it easier for the sellers to take advantage of paranoid gun nuts.
And YEAH - GUN NUTS ARE!
Virtually =EVERY= time you post, you reveal your crass ignorance, stupidity, and just plain extreme negativity.

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#11 Dec 5, 2011
Charlie in Austin wrote:
<quoted text>
There are statistics....
.
And there are statistics BTW: If you link sources, it isn't plagiarism....even it they are NRA talking points.

And I was careless in not quoting from the original article: "“Currently, I would estimate, on the low side, there are over 100 gun shows across the state of Tennessee every year,” Pope said.“On the low side, there are 1,000 guns without any records sold at every show, every day.”

There’s no way to prove that, because statistics on those sales don’t exist."

Undercover agents expose loophole in US gun laws: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/t...

30% of trafficking: One ATF study found gun shows involved with over 10,000 trafficked guns a year – about 30% of all criminal trafficking.
New York City Investigation of Gun Shows: 35 out of 47 sellers approached by investigators completed sales to people who appeared to be criminals or straw purchasers.
Gun Shows linked to Columbine: All four guns used in the Columbine school massacre were bought at gun shows without background checks.
Gun Shows Linked to Terrorists: In 2001 in Michigan, Ali Boumelhem was caught attempting to ship to Hezbollah a shipment containing ammunition, shotguns, parts of AR-15 assault rifles, flash suppressors, and speed loaders.[iv] He and his brother Mohamed had purchased the arsenal of weapons from Michigan gun shows.[v] Other investigations have linked gun shows to potential terrorists in Florida and Texas.[vi]
Gun shows linked to Mexican drug-trafficking cartels: ATF reported that between 2004 and 2006, the Phoenix field division conducted surveillance operations at eight gun shows in Phoenix, Yuma, and Tucson, Arizona, and Albuquerque, New Mexico. Suspected traffickers were later stopped at the border. ATF reported “those operations alone resulted in 13 arrests, 3 convictions, and 193 seizures of illegally purchased firearms.”[vii] ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations William Hoover said in Congressional testimony on February 7, 2008 that “the increased incidence of firearms trafficking to Mexico (from the U.S.) is influenced by,” in part,“a readily accessible source of firearms and ammunition originating in mostly the secondary market such as gun shows, flea markets and private sales.”[viii]
Numerous violations: The Treasury and Justice Departments issued a report in 1999 finding “a wide variety of violations occurring at gun shows and substantial numbers of firearms associated with gun shows being used in drug crimes and crimes of violence, as well as being passed illegally to juveniles.”[ix]
Gun shows were tied to a broad range of violations, including straw purchases and the sale of kits to convert legal guns into illegal machine guns.
Their report reviewed 314 of those departments’ own investigations related to gun shows, involving over 54,000 guns, between 1991 and 1998..... http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/...

Quick Stats: Gun Shows are the SECOND leading source of crime guns in the United States: statistics pulled from : "Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers," Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (June 2000)
1 "Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46% of the gun show investigations.Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations." (p. 17)

2 "The access to anonymous sales and large numbers of secondhand firearms makes gun shows attractive to criminals." (p. 17)

3 "Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of trafficked guns per investigation." (p. xi)

Several other links http://www.campaigntoclosethegunshowloophole....

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#12 Dec 5, 2011
Charlie in Austin wrote:
<quoted text>
There are statistics....
.
And there are statistics BTW: If you link sources, it isn't plagiarism....even it they are NRA talking points.

And I was careless in not quoting from the original article: "“Currently, I would estimate, on the low side, there are over 100 gun shows across the state of Tennessee every year,” Pope said.“On the low side, there are 1,000 guns without any records sold at every show, every day.”
There’s no way to prove that, because statistics on those sales don’t exist." http://www.tennessean.com/article/20111205/CO... -

Undercover agents expose loophole in US gun laws: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/t...

30% of trafficking: One ATF study found gun shows involved with over 10,000 trafficked guns a year – about 30% of all criminal trafficking.
New York City Investigation of Gun Shows: 35 out of 47 sellers approached by investigators completed sales to people who appeared to be criminals or straw purchasers.
Gun Shows linked to Columbine: All four guns used in the Columbine school massacre were bought at gun shows without background checks.
Gun Shows Linked to Terrorists: In 2001 in Michigan, Ali Boumelhem was caught attempting to ship to Hezbollah a shipment containing ammunition, shotguns, parts of AR-15 assault rifles, flash suppressors, and speed loaders.[iv] He and his brother Mohamed had purchased the arsenal of weapons from Michigan gun shows.[v] Other investigations have linked gun shows to potential terrorists in Florida and Texas.[vi]
Gun shows linked to Mexican drug-trafficking cartels: ATF reported that between 2004 and 2006, the Phoenix field division conducted surveillance operations at eight gun shows in Phoenix, Yuma, and Tucson, Arizona, and Albuquerque, New Mexico. Suspected traffickers were later stopped at the border. ATF reported “those operations alone resulted in 13 arrests, 3 convictions, and 193 seizures of illegally purchased firearms.”[vii] ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations William Hoover said in Congressional testimony on February 7, 2008 that “the increased incidence of firearms trafficking to Mexico (from the U.S.) is influenced by,” in part,“a readily accessible source of firearms and ammunition originating in mostly the secondary market such as gun shows, flea markets and private sales.”[viii]
Numerous violations: The Treasury and Justice Departments issued a report in 1999 finding “a wide variety of violations occurring at gun shows and substantial numbers of firearms associated with gun shows being used in drug crimes and crimes of violence, as well as being passed illegally to juveniles.”[ix]
Gun shows were tied to a broad range of violations, including straw purchases and the sale of kits to convert legal guns into illegal machine guns.
Their report reviewed 314 of those departments’ own investigations related to gun shows, involving over 54,000 guns, between 1991 and 1998..... http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/...

“Tu ne cede malis”

Since: Dec 06

Lots of different places

#13 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
<quoted text>
And there are statistics BTW: BLAH BLAH BLAH
Let's set things straight right up front. 

Yes, some guns are being smuggled into Mexico from the U.S. Most are handguns. 

But, handguns are being illegally trafficked from state to state and from the U.S. to Canada. 

It should come as no surprise that guns are smuggled into Mexico. 

But, the problem being portrayed by the U.S. media and our government is not as it seems. 

You see, Mexico doesn't allow ownership of most firearms, so ordinary Mexican people seeking self-protection will find a way to get them into Mexico. 

As for the drug cartels operating in the border towns along the U.S., they have other sources for their weapons and have become the prime supplier within Mexico.
—————
Reference:
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw807.html

See also:

http://sand.miis.edu/research/documents/gnick...

Excerpt:
—————
In El Salvador, approximately 20% of the assault rifles turned in voluntarily for consumer goods were clearly marked "Property of United States Government".

We know that these are not newly introduced weapons as there is evidence that the U.S. government introduced tens of thousands of M-16s and grenade launchers in the 1980's.
—————

Yeah, how about that: "Property of United States Government".

Gee, I wonder where THOSE came from?

I ask THAT question because machine guns of new manufacture have been OUTLAWED for sale in the U.S. to private citizens since 1986.

See:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/press/2006/11-0...

Excerpt:
—————
Ms. McLemore noted that while individuals may possess and transfer machine guns lawfully registered prior to May 19, 1986, federal law prohibits the manufacture of new machine guns unless they are intended for distribution to local, state or federal agencies.
—————
.
See also this:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/n...

“Tu ne cede malis”

Since: Dec 06

Lots of different places

#14 Dec 5, 2011
Editorial: Was Fast And Furious A Gun-Control Plot?
.
Posted 06/22/2011 06:47 PM ET
.
Scandal: Rather than a botched attempt to catch criminals, was the ATF program actually an attempt to advance gun-control efforts by an administration that has blamed Mexican violence on easy access to U.S. weapons?
.
If "Operation Fast and Furious" was merely a botched attempt at law enforcement, why was a supervisor of the operation, David Voth, "jovial, if not, not giddy but just delighted about" marked guns showing up at crime scenes in Mexico, as career Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent John Dodson told Rep. Darrell Issa's House Oversight Committee?
.
Perhaps because all was going as planned until it was learned that two of the AK-47s recovered at the scene of the fatal shooting of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry in December were bought in ATF's Operation Fast and Furious. That wasn't supposed to happen.
.
[--snip--]
.
Bill McMahon, ATF deputy assistant director, testified that of 100,000 weapons recovered by Mexican authorities, only 18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S. And of those 18,000, just 7,900 came from sales by licensed gun dealers. That's 8%, not 90%.
.
Read the full story here:
.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Arti...
—————
Alleged Zetas Cartel Leader Captured by Mexican Police
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/world/ameri...
—————
Los Zetas Kingpin: We Bought Guns Directly From U.S. Government

Revelation heightens supicions that Fast and Furious was an Obama administration plot to undermine Second Amendment
http://www.infowars.com/los-zetas-kingpin-we-...
—————

by Jim Shepherd

The idea that we'd ever find WikiLeaks information relevant to the protection of United States citizens' gun rights wasn't anywhere on our radar when the NSSF's Larry Keane tipped us off to some disturbing information gleaned from leaked State Department documents.

According to State Department cables, the Mexican drug cartels are getting their weaponry from an international operation, with the cartels getting military weapons through various government channels. Some of those weapons did, in fact, come from the United States, but they weren't the result of the "gun show loophole" straw-man purchases or any of the other individual criminal acts anti-gun groups would have you believe.

Large quantities of those US weapons -everything from rifles to machine guns, grenade launchers, explosives and ammunition, came from purchases by the government of Mexico from the United States. As the underpaid, undermanned and undermined soldiers of the Mexican army skipped out on the military to put their training to work for the cartels, they took their issued-arms with them.

Others come from weapon buys from guerilla groups in South and Central America that are then smuggled into the country.

No specific numbers on how many of those guns "recovered in Mexico and traced back to the United States" were, in fact, military purchases, but the State Department cables indicate a portion of the fewer than 12 percent of the traceable weapons actually came from the United States in gun shop/individual type purchases. Remember, that's not 12 percent of the tens of thousands of weapons recovered - it's only 12 percent of the weapons recovered that were traceable. It's nowhere near the 12 percent figure that has been misquoted and used as evidence of the United State's "horrific" problem of illegal gun sales.

Republished from The Outdoor Wire.

—————

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#15 Dec 5, 2011
M Pearce wrote:
<quoted text>
If it is a stupid argument when used by the voter I.D. folks, why isn't it a stupid argument when you use it?
My comment was just that...a comment, not an argument,to illustrate the absurdity of the voter suppression crowd (including elected officials) argument.

“Tu ne cede malis”

Since: Dec 06

Lots of different places

#16 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
<quoted text>
My comment was just that...a comment, not an argument,to illustrate the absurdity of the voter suppression crowd (including elected officials) argument.
Your 'comment' was nothing less than a seething repudiation of, and total attack upon, human liberty.

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#17 Dec 5, 2011
Highlander wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's set things straight right up front.....BLAH BLAH BLAH  
Even though I have bought and sold at least 1/2 dozen firearms at gun shows without I am one of the 70+% of the gun owners who want the gun show loop hole closed.

BTW: Paranoid Reich-wing xenophobic racist hate-mongering gun nuts worry me a hell of a lot more than some felon who is dumb enough to try to buy a weapon at a gun show.

Since: Sep 08

Huntsville, AL

#18 Dec 5, 2011
Highlander wrote:
<quoted text>
Your 'comment' was nothing less than a seething repudiation of, and total attack upon, human liberty.
Another item that demonstrates that GUN NUTS ARE!

“Tu ne cede malis”

Since: Dec 06

Lots of different places

#19 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Even though I have bought and sold at least 1/2 dozen firearms at gun shows without I am one of the 70+% of the gun owners who want the gun show loop hole closed.
BTW: Paranoid Reich-wing xenophobic racist hate-mongering gun nuts worry me a hell of a lot more than some felon who is dumb enough to try to buy a weapon at a gun show.
Your 'comment' was nothing less than a seething repudiation of, and total attack upon, human liberty.

“Tu ne cede malis”

Since: Dec 06

Lots of different places

#20 Dec 5, 2011
PlacitasRoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Another item that demonstrates that GUN NUTS ARE!
Your 'comment' was nothing less than a seething repudiation of, and total attack upon, human liberty.

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