OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Created by CitizenTopix on Oct 11, 2010

1,514 votes

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Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29064 Sep 11, 2012
MistyGirl wrote:
<quoted text>
I took a second look at the list and it's considerably higher cost of living but then the fuel is so high and that simply effects every single thing. Here in america we are so independent because we have cars to go whenever wherever we choose to go and there they use public transit and good ol' muscle power and ride bikes.
I like to be independent myself :)
You're comparing apples and oranges by comparing the USA to Holland. To accurately do so you must factor in the cost of health care in the USA as well because it's in there for the Dutch. Any program that we pay for outside our taxes that they have included in their taxes has to be factored in.

The one area that is disproportionate is fuel. But even that is mitigated by the incredible train/transportation system in most of Western Europe. We went all over Western Europe on the trains which in most cases are quicker than driving. Parking is impossible in Europe (as it is in most major American Cities) and it's simply easier to take the train. Once in Hamburg Germany the train was due in 3 minutes. I told the wife I'd be right back and was going to grab a bratwurst off a cart further down the track. She grabbed me and said "you are not missing this train". If the train is due at 1:03 it will pull in and open it's doors at exactly 1:03. If it says it leaves the station at 1:05 it will leave at exactly 1:05.

Another time we went to Amsterdam in a rental car. Drove around two hours in the central district (where our hotel reservations were for), ended up parking some five miles from our hotel, took a trolley into the Hotel and worried all night about the car. Amsterdam has thousands of bicycles just sitting in racks. Need one? Take it and ride to where you're going and put in a rack there. Guys in Armani business suits riding bikes. Blond model looking girls riding bikes. Everyone was riding a bike. So we rode a bike and had a great time.

The same "boot" of beer that costs 16.00 at the Tulsa State fair? Costs 5 guilders in the tourist zone of Amsterdam back in the 90's. Less in Germany, slightly more in Paris and so on. But it never came close to what we paid in Tulsa.

"Cost of living" is all relative to your hatred of socialism. My father in law who was a fairly wealthy German and his wife retired to the USA because their children were here. He did a two or three year study comparing all costs including hidden, excise, every tax possible by both countries. He found that Germans pay almost 10% less of their money to the government than Americans do. He was surprised, I was surprised and you need to be aware that socialism is not the problem. Government is.
MistyGirl

United States

#29065 Sep 11, 2012
DustyOutlaw wrote:
<quoted text>
You're comparing apples and oranges by comparing the USA to Holland. To accurately do so you must factor in the cost of health care in the USA as well because it's in there for the Dutch. Any program that we pay for outside our taxes that they have included in their taxes has to be factored in.
The one area that is disproportionate is fuel. But even that is mitigated by the incredible train/transportation system in most of Western Europe. We went all over Western Europe on the trains which in most cases are quicker than driving. Parking is impossible in Europe (as it is in most major American Cities) and it's simply easier to take the train. Once in Hamburg Germany the train was due in 3 minutes. I told the wife I'd be right back and was going to grab a bratwurst off a cart further down the track. She grabbed me and said "you are not missing this train". If the train is due at 1:03 it will pull in and open it's doors at exactly 1:03. If it says it leaves the station at 1:05 it will leave at exactly 1:05.
Another time we went to Amsterdam in a rental car. Drove around two hours in the central district (where our hotel reservations were for), ended up parking some five miles from our hotel, took a trolley into the Hotel and worried all night about the car. Amsterdam has thousands of bicycles just sitting in racks. Need one? Take it and ride to where you're going and put in a rack there. Guys in Armani business suits riding bikes. Blond model looking girls riding bikes. Everyone was riding a bike. So we rode a bike and had a great time.
The same "boot" of beer that costs 16.00 at the Tulsa State fair? Costs 5 guilders in the tourist zone of Amsterdam back in the 90's. Less in Germany, slightly more in Paris and so on. But it never came close to what we paid in Tulsa.
"Cost of living" is all relative to your hatred of socialism. My father in law who was a fairly wealthy German and his wife retired to the USA because their children were here. He did a two or three year study comparing all costs including hidden, excise, every tax possible by both countries. He found that Germans pay almost 10% less of their money to the government than Americans do. He was surprised, I was surprised and you need to be aware that socialism is not the problem. Government is.
I should have had my husband post on here about Europe because he has the experience and first hand knowledge including living in Germany for years. My experiences are limited to USA and Canada so far anyway. I know we are taxed upon tax that's just a fact.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29066 Sep 11, 2012
MistyGirl wrote:
<quoted text>
I should have had my husband post on here about Europe because he has the experience and first hand knowledge including living in Germany for years. My experiences are limited to USA and Canada so far anyway. I know we are taxed upon tax that's just a fact.
I'll tell you one thing about Germany and cars. Your car insurance is socialized in Germany and let's say you have a cracked windshield like a relative of my wife's had. Rock hit it on the autobahn. She took it in, they had to order the windshield, it wasn't a bad crack but it was there so they gave her a sticker for her windshield that said it was ordered. She had an inconvenience of two weeks.

Here's the trade out for that inconvenience. In Germany you see no rusted, ratty cars. There is no excuse for it since everyone has auto insurance. If the car is licensed in Germany it is insured. And it's not ratty. You can get a ticket of over 400.00 for that cracked windshield if you don't have the sticker. NOW. When I drove back to Oklahoma I also got a cracked windshield from a rock from a truck. I was there ONE day and on my way to get it fixed and I got a ticket for it. 245.00. Plus 200.00 to fix the windshield. So the overall cost was 45.00 higher here but pretty much a wash.

My point? No ratty cars, no wrecks, no rusted out pieces of crap on the roads there endangering everyone around them. No pollution spewing garbage that you can't breathe around that car. Even the Turks (who are Germany's "illegals") drive well kept up cars. It seems to me the trade out of a two week wait for repairs (and resulting protection from the law writing tickets just to make more money) is worth it. Not a day goes by that I don't see some piece of crap car that is unpainted, bondo covered (but of course 2,000.00 rims) limping down the road holding up traffic and being a menace to society. You won't see that in Germany.

“Hello, all!”

Since: Aug 12

Tulsa

#29067 Sep 11, 2012
There are many factors that work together to create what Holland has. Simple taxing and social programs can't be dropped into another country and expected to work the same.
We have social programs in America, yes. But a great many people here think they are free giveaways with little or no accountabilty. Americans would repeal some programs if they knew how. At the very least they would bring in better accountability. Obama removing some of the accountability to stay on welfare is a good example. Most people would prefer workfare.
SayWhat

United States

#29068 Sep 11, 2012
DustyOutlaw wrote:
<quoted text>
You're comparing apples and oranges by comparing the USA to Holland. To accurately do so you must factor in the cost of health care in the USA as well because it's in there for the Dutch. Any program that we pay for outside our taxes that they have included in their taxes has to be factored in.
The one area that is disproportionate is fuel. But even that is mitigated by the incredible train/transportation system in most of Western Europe. We went all over Western Europe on the trains which in most cases are quicker than driving. Parking is impossible in Europe (as it is in most major American Cities) and it's simply easier to take the train. Once in Hamburg Germany the train was due in 3 minutes. I told the wife I'd be right back and was going to grab a bratwurst off a cart further down the track. She grabbed me and said "you are not missing this train". If the train is due at 1:03 it will pull in and open it's doors at exactly 1:03. If it says it leaves the station at 1:05 it will leave at exactly 1:05.
Another time we went to Amsterdam in a rental car. Drove around two hours in the central district (where our hotel reservations were for), ended up parking some five miles from our hotel, took a trolley into the Hotel and worried all night about the car. Amsterdam has thousands of bicycles just sitting in racks. Need one? Take it and ride to where you're going and put in a rack there. Guys in Armani business suits riding bikes. Blond model looking girls riding bikes. Everyone was riding a bike. So we rode a bike and had a great time.
The same "boot" of beer that costs 16.00 at the Tulsa State fair? Costs 5 guilders in the tourist zone of Amsterdam back in the 90's. Less in Germany, slightly more in Paris and so on. But it never came close to what we paid in Tulsa.
"Cost of living" is all relative to your hatred of socialism. My father in law who was a fairly wealthy German and his wife retired to the USA because their children were here. He did a two or three year study comparing all costs including hidden, excise, every tax possible by both countries. He found that Germans pay almost 10% less of their money to the government than Americans do. He was surprised, I was surprised and you need to be aware that socialism is not the problem. Government is.
You are only talking about the metropolitan areas which public transit works well but in the rural areas I would think that not having your own vehicle would cause more of a problem. I know Europe it big on villages which provide the necessary day to day products of the average person. They have much less land area to travel than an american so maybe comparing Europe's life style and the american life style is comparing apples to oranges?

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29069 Sep 11, 2012
SayWhat wrote:
<quoted text>
You are only talking about the metropolitan areas which public transit works well but in the rural areas I would think that not having your own vehicle would cause more of a problem. I know Europe it big on villages which provide the necessary day to day products of the average person. They have much less land area to travel than an american so maybe comparing Europe's life style and the american life style is comparing apples to oranges?
1.) Nobody, and certainly not I, is advocating the banning of autos. However with a good transportation alternative we could certainly stop using more than 50% of the world's oil sales. In Los Angeles I resisted the train system for many years until a friend badgered me into a day on the trains. Here's what happened. We drove to what is called a park and ride. Huge parking lot, parked the car and got on a train. Went to Hollywood. Faster than I could drive it. We had lunch and then got on a train to go to the valley. Faster than i could drive it. Goofed off for about an hour then went to Long Beach. Faster than I could drive it. It was quite interesting to see the traffic piled up on the freeways while we zipped by on the rails next to the freeways. The entire cost for the day? Less than 10.00 for transportation. I figure I would have burned about half a tank of gas at 3.00 a gallon for a 25 gallon tank and some 6 hours of driving time for what cost less than 10.00 and 2 hours on the train. Simply put, I would not have done all that we did in terms of distance in Los Angeles in a single day in a car that we did on the train. There is a place in America for mass transit trains.

2.) Germany is much smaller than the USA no doubt. But we traveled to France, Holland, Italy, Spain, and even England on the train. Now you're back to apples to apples.

What I don't understand about you right wingers is your absolute refusal to admit that some other country might come up with something superior to what we do. Ever heard of Madam Curie? Or Louis Pasteur? As Americans we should look to the world to see what someone else is doing well and take it and adapt it to our system and make it even better. Not reject things just because someone else came up with it first. Yes we can improve on almost anything. But we don't have to invent every wheel for it to be a good wheel.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29070 Sep 11, 2012
JosephMarcus wrote:
There are many factors that work together to create what Holland has. Simple taxing and social programs can't be dropped into another country and expected to work the same.
We have social programs in America, yes. But a great many people here think they are free giveaways with little or no accountabilty. Americans would repeal some programs if they knew how. At the very least they would bring in better accountability. Obama removing some of the accountability to stay on welfare is a good example. Most people would prefer workfare.
I prefer workfare over welfare. And workfare would be much more attainable and sustainable with a public affordable transportation system to allow us to require these people to actually do some work. It's pretty tough to simply say "you have to work across town for your assistance" when those people don't have a car or money to pay for gas.
TAMARA

Edmond, OK

#29071 Sep 11, 2012
I have a question about what the government wants to do with Medicare. It seems that when a person hits that magic age of 65 to be in the medicare system the government wants to cut treatments for health problems that involve expensive treatments like heart problems and cancer. So the question is if a person has a preexisting condition that requires long term expensive treatments such as MS..Lupus..and so on, should their treatments be cut back or off and just be given a pill to make them comfortable?

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29072 Sep 11, 2012
SayWhat wrote:
<quoted text>
You are only talking about the metropolitan areas which public transit works well but in the rural areas I would think that not having your own vehicle would cause more of a problem. I know Europe it big on villages which provide the necessary day to day products of the average person. They have much less land area to travel than an american so maybe comparing Europe's life style and the american life style is comparing apples to oranges?
Let me give you and example. My wife's parents lived in a tiny village outside of Cologne Germany called Ahe. It's a wide hole in the road. And not that wide. They had a grocery store, a bank and a bar. Her dad worked in Cologne. They had two Mercedes 500 SL's in the Garage (it's not that big a deal in Germany). But what they also had in that tiny village is a train platform. About every 30 minutes a train would roar down the track at over 80 miles an hour, come to a dead stop in about 20 seconds (and you never feel it in the train) give you a minute to depart/get on, and they were GONE.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29073 Sep 11, 2012
JosephMarcus wrote:
There are many factors that work together to create what Holland has. Simple taxing and social programs can't be dropped into another country and expected to work the same.
We have social programs in America, yes. But a great many people here think they are free giveaways with little or no accountabilty. Americans would repeal some programs if they knew how. At the very least they would bring in better accountability. Obama removing some of the accountability to stay on welfare is a good example. Most people would prefer workfare.
Good Lord man, Obama did not remove accountability to be on welfare. He simply moved that accountability authority from the feds to each individual state. I thought you were in favor of states rights?

Let me tell you about a couple of "social programs" in America. Check your phone bill. See that little "excise tax" charge? That was put on in WWII with the promise it would go away once the war was over. Still there isn't it?

Buy a set of tires and see what the rubber excise tax is. Put on in WWII when rubber was in short supply. Was going to be gone after the war. Still there isn't it?

You people want to blame the Dems for every tax. Why didn't Reagan or either Bush or Nixon or Ford for that matter get rid of those WWII "social taxes for the greater good"??????? Because the GOP is just as corrupt as the Dems. Why do you people always blame "the other side" and never your own?
SayWhat

United States

#29074 Sep 11, 2012
DustyOutlaw wrote:
<quoted text>
1.) Nobody, and certainly not I, is advocating the banning of autos. However with a good transportation alternative we could certainly stop using more than 50% of the world's oil sales. In Los Angeles I resisted the train system for many years until a friend badgered me into a day on the trains. Here's what happened. We drove to what is called a park and ride. Huge parking lot, parked the car and got on a train. Went to Hollywood. Faster than I could drive it. We had lunch and then got on a train to go to the valley. Faster than i could drive it. Goofed off for about an hour then went to Long Beach. Faster than I could drive it. It was quite interesting to see the traffic piled up on the freeways while we zipped by on the rails next to the freeways. The entire cost for the day? Less than 10.00 for transportation. I figure I would have burned about half a tank of gas at 3.00 a gallon for a 25 gallon tank and some 6 hours of driving time for what cost less than 10.00 and 2 hours on the train. Simply put, I would not have done all that we did in terms of distance in Los Angeles in a single day in a car that we did on the train. There is a place in America for mass transit trains.
2.) Germany is much smaller than the USA no doubt. But we traveled to France, Holland, Italy, Spain, and even England on the train. Now you're back to apples to apples.
What I don't understand about you right wingers is your absolute refusal to admit that some other country might come up with something superior to what we do. Ever heard of Madam Curie? Or Louis Pasteur? As Americans we should look to the world to see what someone else is doing well and take it and adapt it to our system and make it even better. Not reject things just because someone else came up with it first. Yes we can improve on almost anything. But we don't have to invent every wheel for it to be a good wheel.
Curie discovered radiation and Pasteur invented the pasterization process yeah I've heard of them. Why do you talk down to people of Oklahoma, you act as if you are the only person with any knowledge hate to tell you pal but it's not exclusive to you alone!

“Hello, all!”

Since: Aug 12

Tulsa

#29075 Sep 11, 2012
Tamara, I would hope the patient would have the say over their own life. The government has no business telling people whether they can be treated or not. Or whether they can live or not.
This whole Obamacare thing is troubling. In an age where some countries have euthanasia options for adults and abortion for baies, there is a reason for concern. Obamacare has a panel to sort out who gets treatment - the so-called death panel. I wonder where this will all lead.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29076 Sep 11, 2012
TAMARA wrote:
I have a question about what the government wants to do with Medicare. It seems that when a person hits that magic age of 65 to be in the medicare system the government wants to cut treatments for health problems that involve expensive treatments like heart problems and cancer. So the question is if a person has a preexisting condition that requires long term expensive treatments such as MS..Lupus..and so on, should their treatments be cut back or off and just be given a pill to make them comfortable?
The more valid question is why are you voting Romney when he wants to give you a voucher and cut you adrift from Social Security medicare? The seniors have the power at the ballot box to say NO when the govt starts cutting benefits for the boomers and they will. Seniors have no power once the GOP divides and conquers with a voucher plan. The interest money earned from Boomer contributions have been stolen (they said borrowed but they stole it since they have no intention of paying it back) was more than sufficient to absorb the boomers medicare. But it's not there now and they are going to hammer the boomers. The question is which way will cost you less in terms of service loss. The voucher plan is far more devastating to seniors than anything Obama is doing. We're going to get raped one way or the other and all this boo hooing about Obama to cover up the Ryan plan that is even worse is smoke screeing.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29077 Sep 11, 2012
SayWhat wrote:
<quoted text>
Curie discovered radiation and Pasteur invented the pasterization process yeah I've heard of them. Why do you talk down to people of Oklahoma, you act as if you are the only person with any knowledge hate to tell you pal but it's not exclusive to you alone!
Then why don't you stop being defensive and speak to the content of what I said. You want to do a flaming insult session bubba? Of everything I wrote you want to take offense at a simple question? That's what I thought.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29078 Sep 11, 2012
JosephMarcus wrote:
Tamara, I would hope the patient would have the say over their own life. The government has no business telling people whether they can be treated or not. Or whether they can live or not.
This whole Obamacare thing is troubling. In an age where some countries have euthanasia options for adults and abortion for baies, there is a reason for concern. Obamacare has a panel to sort out who gets treatment - the so-called death panel. I wonder where this will all lead.
Why do you people do this? We already have death panels. They're called insurance companies. My wife and I paid into the same company for over 20 years. When she was diagnosed with Cancer they dropped both of us within 30 days. This happens all the time all over the nation. And somehow this is all Obama? You people are nuts. Obama wasn't even elected when my wife died.
SayWhat

United States

#29079 Sep 11, 2012
DustyOutlaw wrote:
<quoted text>
Then why don't you stop being defensive and speak to the content of what I said. You want to do a flaming insult session bubba? Of everything I wrote you want to take offense at a simple question? That's what I thought.
I answered your question you posed to me and then when I answered the question immediately and correctly you get mad? Real rational reaction bud.

LMFAO
Jesse

United States

#29080 Sep 11, 2012
DustyOutlaw wrote:
<quoted text>
Then why don't you stop being defensive and speak to the content of what I said. You want to do a flaming insult session bubba?
Hey dude I don't think he gay, LOL

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#29081 Sep 11, 2012
SayWhat wrote:
<quoted text>
I answered your question you posed to me and then when I answered the question immediately and correctly you get mad? Real rational reaction bud.
LMFAO
This is what I find so unbelievable about you hicks. You take a single sentence and pounce on it out of context. The reference to Curie and Pasteur was referenced to point out that it is not always Americans who come up with ideas and solutions. I was TRYING to have an adult conversation with people that are not capable of doing that. My apologies for giving you the benefit of the doubt once again. I knew already that Okie right wingers can't discuss or debate based on the entire body of the discussion and as such, will simply divert onto a single sentence. You're an idiot hick bubba.
Katmandu

United States

#29082 Sep 11, 2012
SayWhat wrote:
<quoted text>
I answered your question you posed to me and then when I answered the question immediately and correctly you get mad? Real rational reaction bud.
LMFAO
Dusty does that a lot. He can't take the medicine he dishes out to everyone else. That's why he doesn't like misty because she'll bitch slap him if he gets out of line.

That's why I like her she's got spunk!

LOL
Tony

Broken Arrow, OK

#29083 Sep 11, 2012
Republicans believe in profit over life and the lives of people.

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