Nazi victims' families testify at Dem...

Nazi victims' families testify at Demjanjuk trial

There are 22 comments on the WRAL.com - AP World News story from Dec 1, 2009, titled Nazi victims' families testify at Demjanjuk trial. In it, WRAL.com - AP World News reports that:

Rudolf Salomon Cortissos sobbed as he told a Munich court about the letter his mother had written on May 17, 1943 - four days before she was gassed in the Nazis' Sobibor death camp with some 2,300 other Dutch Jews.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at WRAL.com - AP World News.

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Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#1 Dec 1, 2009
Although the story of Sobibor is very tragic --and we all know that---where are the witnesses who allege that Demjanjuk was there?

Does hearsay evidence really prove anything?

Sobibor was a terrible place, no doubt about that, but where is the evidence relevant to Demjanjuk?
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#2 Dec 1, 2009
Although the German prosecutors promised 26 witnesses from Russia and Ukraine, it turns out they are all long dead. Many were executed a long time ago by the KGB. Dead witnesses can't be cross-examined. Depositions extracted under KGB coercion, threat, and torture isn't woth much. Heresay evidence is not worth much in court either.

Most of the so-called "Ukrainian" guards --the so-called "Trawnickis" named after a camp where they trained -- were Volksdeutsch --ethnic Germans born in Ukraine.

It should be known that over the centuries German colonists were brought into Ukraine by the various Polish and Russian monarchies to help take control of Ukraine.

In spite of coming from Ukraine, they were ethnically German, and were accepted by the German Nazi administration as "pure German race" and loyal.

They spoke German and several Slavic languages such as Polish, Ukrainian, Russian which made them valuable as translators and for communicating with the prisoners--many of whom were Jews from the "conquered lands" of the east.

Because many of the Volksdetusch guards were from Ukraine, they were often referred to as the "Ukrainian" guards, in spite of their German-ness and in many cases antipathy and hostility to ethnic Ukrainians.

Before and during WWII, some Volksdeutsche in countries such as Czechoslovakia, Poland (including Polish-occupied Ukraine) and the Balkan countries, actively supported the Nazis by espionage, sabotage and other means in their countries of origin.

About 300,000 Volksdeutsche from the "conquered lands" and the satellite countries joined the Waffen-SS.

From Hungary alone, some 100,000 ethnic Germans "Volksdeutsch" volunteered for service in it.

Among the populations in the Nazi German-occupied lands, Volksdeutsche became a term of ignominy.

For more on the Volksdetusch see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche

John Demjanjuk of Cleveland is an ethnic Ukrainian, who claims he never served as a guard at any camp, and does not fit the Volksdeutsch profile of many the brutal guards at Sobibor and other camps.

In the case of John Demjanjuk, no one serious is denying that there were atrocities and murderous psychopaths in German Nazi camps, but John Demjanjuk of Cleveland is very possibly innocent of the charges.

During the Israel trials some Jewish survivors said they saw "Ivan the Terrible" killed upon liberation of the camps.

The trial of John Demjanjuk is forever tainted by the fact the US Department of Justice (USDOJ) used Russian-KGB supplied evidence [during the Yuri Andropov administration] that was found under forensic examination in Israel to be forged.

Among the many problems with the evidence was that the aging John Demjanjuk of Cleveland was taller than the youthful "John Demjanjuk" in the forged ID card.[The media continue showing this forgery in newscasts.]

After the passage of decades there has been ample opportunity for exonerating documents to be destroyed and forgeries to be planted in the various files.

Owing to the hysteria and tremandous bias, as well as USDOJ's grievous "prosecutorial misconduct" in the past, and Germany's political motives to deflect attention away from Germany's astonishingly lax prosecution of its own genuine German Nazi war criminals, many people who have followed this story will not believe that John Demjanjuk could ever get a fair trial.

As a result, with so many legal irregularities, and questionable German political motives, many will not believe a "guilty" verdict no matter how much "new and improved" evidence is submitted.

pesky the real deal

“Safe pair of hands”

Since: Nov 08

where the trouble is

#3 Dec 1, 2009
demjanko is going to rot in jail !

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#5 Dec 2, 2009
Dr Lecter wrote:
It should be known that over the centuries German colonists were brought into Ukraine by the various Polish and Russian monarchies to help take control of Ukraine.
What a BS!
Germans were invited by Polish and Russian Monarchs to bring Western culture to backward countries, like Poland and Russia.
Dr Lecter wrote:
John Demjanjuk of Cleveland is an ethnic Ukrainian, who claims he never served as a guard at any camp, and does not fit the Volksdeutsch profile of many the brutal guards at Sobibor and other camps.
The Jewish witnesses talk about a guard with the first name Ivan.
No Volksdeutsche was ever called Ivan.
Dr Lecter wrote:
... and Germany's political motives to deflect attention away from Germany's astonishingly lax prosecution of its own genuine German Nazi war criminals, many people who have followed this story will not believe that John Demjanjuk could ever get a fair trial.
Germany and Germans have nothing to do with this trial.

Zionists believe that a new trial in Germany will attract the attention to the suffering of Jews during WWII, that is the only reason of this trial.
Dr Lecter wrote:
As a result, with so many legal irregularities, and questionable German political motives, many will not believe a "guilty" verdict no matter how much "new and improved" evidence is submitted.
The name of the wanted man is IVAN, it is a Slavic name.
Jewish witnesses say that the man was an Ukrainian, his name was Ivan, he was not a German.
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#6 Dec 2, 2009
Polish and Russian monarchs were imperialists who brought foreigners like Volksdeutche into Ukraine to help colonize it.

Volksdeutche from Ukraine were recruited to run German death camps and trained at Trawnicki.

Some Volksdeutsche in eastern Europe also had Slavic first names like Ivan if there was intermarriage in the family.

The Ivan the Terrible according to some Jewish survivors was Ivan Marchenko --not Ivan Demjanjuk.

The identity of the perpetrator is at issue.

“jimmy agler”

Since: Jul 09

grandview hts

#9 Dec 3, 2009
Dr Lecter wrote:
Although the story of Sobibor is very tragic --and we all know that---where are the witnesses who allege that Demjanjuk was there?
Does hearsay evidence really prove anything?
Sobibor was a terrible place, no doubt about that, but where is the evidence relevant to Demjanjuk?
for everyone who complains about our system of justice,there is no way such inflamatory material woudl be read in.they are trying to convict on emotionrather than evidence.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#10 Dec 4, 2009
Dr Lecter wrote:
Polish and Russian monarchs were imperialists who brought foreigners like Volksdeutche into Ukraine to help colonize it.
Well, they had backward people and backward countries, so they needed Germans to modernize their countries.

Some idiots believe that today Polish government sold Poland to Germany (speak the EU), so the Germans can re-colonize it.
Dr Lecter wrote:
Volksdeutche from Ukraine were recruited to run German death camps and trained at Trawnicki.
Can you prove that? What are the names of these Volksdeutsche? Where and when were they recruited?

Where are the links to your sources?
Dr Lecter wrote:
Some Volksdeutsche in eastern Europe also had Slavic first names like Ivan if there was intermarriage in the family.
.
Total BS!
There was no intermarriage between ethnic Germans and Slavs before the Genocide committed against ethnic Germans after WWII, and there were no Volksdeutsche with Slavic names, like Ivan Marchenko.

Only a total idiot can believe in this crap.
Dr Lecter wrote:
The Ivan the Terrible according to some Jewish survivors was Ivan Marchenko --not Ivan Demjanjuk.
The identity of the perpetrator is at issue.
Marchenko and Demjanjuk are Ukrainian names, the Ivan the Terrible was not a Volksdeutsche, dude.

Juwish survivors emphasised that not Germans committed atrocities against them, but ethnic Ukrainians.

BTW, why are you spamming so much about this trial?

You opened dozens of threads and spam in every thread the same silly stuff.

Would one single thread not be enough?
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#11 Dec 4, 2009
Here is a good example of a Volksdeutche ethnic German from Ukraine who was trained at Trawnicki....Germany conveniently forgets about its ethnic German guards who came from Ukraine. Most of these so-called "Ukrainian guards" were from Ukraine, but were not ethnic Ukrainians.

The Chameleon of Trawniki: Jack Reimer, Soviet Volksdeutsche, and the Holocaust

Eric C. Steinhart
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

The crimes and transformations of Jack Reimer, a heavily-implicated ethnic German Holocaust perpetrator, are examined in the following article. Within little more than a generation, Reimer refashioned himself from repressed farmer to Red Army lieutenant; from Soviet POW in German captivity to senior non-commissioned officer at the SS Training Camp in Trawniki, Poland; and finally from wanted war criminal to upstanding American citizen. This article argues that for one ethnic German perpetrator, participation in the Holocaust served as a vehicle for negotiating Eastern Europe's dangerous wartime multiethnic milieu.

http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abs...
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#12 Dec 4, 2009
Most of the so-called "Ukrainian" guards --the so-called "Trawnickis" named after a camp where they trained -- were Volksdeutsch --ethnic Germans born in Ukraine.

It should be known that over the centuries German colonists were brought into Ukraine by the various Polish and Russian monarchies to help take control of Ukraine.

In spite of coming from Ukraine, they were ethnically German, and were accepted by the German Nazi administration as "pure German race" and loyal.

They spoke German and several Slavic languages such as Polish, Ukrainian, Russian which made them valuable as translators and for communicating with the prisoners--many of whom were Jews from the "conquered lands" of the east.

Because many of the Volksdetusch guards were from Ukraine, they were often referred to as the "Ukrainian" guards, in spite of their German-ness and in many cases antipathy and hostility to ethnic Ukrainians.

Before and during WWII, some Volksdeutsche in countries such as Czechoslovakia, Poland (including Polish-occupied Ukraine) and the Balkan countries, actively supported the Nazis by espionage, sabotage and other means in their countries of origin.

About 300,000 Volksdeutsche from the "conquered lands" and the satellite countries joined the Waffen-SS.

From Hungary alone, some 100,000 ethnic Germans "Volksdeutsch" volunteered for service in it.

Among the populations in the Nazi German-occupied lands, Volksdeutsche became a term of ignominy.

For more on the Volksdetusch see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#13 Dec 4, 2009
As a Red Army soldier prisoner of the Nazis, Demjanjuk may have become mentally ill during WWII, like many victims of the Nazis did. Red Army soldiers were treated horribly because the Nazi Germans did not observe the Geneva convention. Many Red Army soldiers were the first victims of Auschwitz, for example.

Perhaps, as a Red Army soldier taken prisoner, Demjanjuk suffered from PTSD or some other mental illness from all of the trauma.

Can he be blamed for trying to immigrate to the USA where he might regain some sense of sanity after the horrors of Nazi German brutality against Red Army prisoners?

Was Demjanjuk stripped of his US citizenship because he wanted to escape repatriation back to genocidal Bolshevik Stalinist Russia?

After all, Demjanjuk was a victim of Naziism too.

pesky the real deal

“Safe pair of hands”

Since: Nov 08

where the trouble is

#14 Dec 4, 2009
So much dribble so little said !
Lock him up, throw away the key.

“jimmy agler”

Since: Jul 09

grandview hts

#16 Dec 4, 2009
pesky the real deal wrote:
So much dribble so little said !
Lock him up, throw away the key.
idon't think you will seriously find anyone defending nazi's on here.a lot of us just want to see justice.if he is guilty a fair trial will get that result just as clearly as a kangaroo court will.reading hearsay evidence in would never make it past a defense objection here.if he is this guy i want him fried too,just make sure he gets a fair trial is all i am saying.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#17 Dec 5, 2009
Dr Lecter wrote:
It should be known that over the centuries German colonists were brought into Ukraine by the various Polish and Russian monarchies to help take control of Ukraine.
You talk like a leftist idiot.

Germans were brought to Poland, Ukraine and other Eastern countries to make from these backward countries modern European countries.

Germans were brought to help to educate the backward population of these contries.

The whole Polish, Ukrainian and Russian educational systems were created by Germans.

Without Germans there would be no Kopernikus, no Lomonosov. These guys were educated in German educational systems.

And Polish, Ukrainian and Russian people loved the Germans.

That was the Bolshevik propaganda that instigated Poles, Ukrainians and Russians against Germans, and you seem to be part of this propaganda.
We have seen that from the early days of the Piast dynasty, and particularly under Casimir the Great, everything was done to attract immigrants to colonize the land and build "modern" cities. Casimir was said to have "found a country of wood and left a country of stone". But these new cities of stone, such as Krakau (Cracow) or Lemberg (Lwow) were built and ruled by German immigrants, living under the so-called Magdeburg law, i.e., enjoying a high degree of municipal self-government. Altogether not less than four million Germans are said to have immigrated into Poland,12 providing it with an urban middleclass that it had not possessed before.

...

.Not only the educated bourgeoisie, but the clergy too, was predominantly German - a natural consequence of Poland opting for Roman Catholicism and turning toward Western civilization, just as the Russian clergy after Vladimir's conversion to Greek orthodoxy was predominantly Byzantine. Secular culture followed along the same lines, in the footsteps of the older Western neighbour. The first Polish university was founded in 1364 in Cracow, then a predominantly German city.*[One of its students in the next century was Nicolaus Copernicus or Mikolaj Koppernigk whom both Polish and German patriots later claimed as their national.] As Kutschera, the Austrian, has put it, rather smugly:

The German colonists were at first regarded by the people with suspicion and distrust; yet they succeeded in gaining an increasingly firm foothold, and even in introducing the German educational system. The Poles learnt to appreciate the advantages of the higher culture introduced by the Germans and to imitate their foreign ways. The Polish aristocracy, too, grew fond of German customs and found beauty and pleasure in whatever came from Germany.13

http://www.biblestudysite.com/13tribe.htm

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#18 Dec 5, 2009
Dr Lecter wrote:
Most of the so-called "Ukrainian" guards --the so-called "Trawnickis" named after a camp where they trained -- were Volksdeutsch --ethnic Germans born in Ukraine.
Why should the German or Ukrainian survivors of the Holodomor in the Ukraine love Bolsheviks, you moron.

German communities were devastated by Bolsheviks, their goods were robbed, that was the reason why many of them were fighting against Bolshevism together with Orthodox Ukrainians and Russians.

Bolsheviks wanted to destroy the Orthodox Church and on the occupied territories there was a revival of the Orthodox culture and religion. That is the reason why so many Ukrainians and Russians were fighting against the Soviets.

Only morons, like you, still believe in the Bolshevik propaganda that is instigating hate against Germans.

The so called "Ivan the Grozny/Terrible" was an ethnic Ukrainians, that was told by Jewish survivors.

Period.
In the chaos of the Russian Revolution and the civil war that followed it, many ethnic Germans were displaced within Russia or emigrated from Russia altogether. The chaos surrounding the Russian Civil War was devastating to many German communities, particularly to religious dissenters like the Mennonites. Many Mennonites hold the forces of Nestor Makhno in Ukraine particularly responsible for large-scale violence against their community.

This period was also one of regular food shortages, caused by famine and the lack of long distance transportation of food during the fighting. Coupled with the typhus epidemic and famine of the early 1920s,[7] as many as a third of Russia's Germans may have perished. Russian German organisations in the Americas, particularly the Mennonite Central Committee, organised famine relief in Russia in the late 1920s. As the chaos faded and the Soviet Union's position became more secure, many Russian Germans simply took advantage of the end of the fighting to emigrate to the Americas. Emigration from the Soviet Union came to a halt in 1929 by Stalin's decree, leaving roughly one million Russian Germans within Soviet borders.

The Soviet Union seized the farms and businesses of Russian Germans, along with all other farms and businesses, when Stalin ended Lenin's New Economic Policy in 1929 and began the forced collectivisation of agriculture and liquidation of large land holdings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germa...
Harry

Austria

#19 Dec 5, 2009
What you are discussing for, was the k.u.k.Österreich-Ungarn
(k.u.k. means "kaiserlich-königlich ")
Half of ukrainia (Lemberg) was a part of the austrian-hungary empire - next neighboor was russia.
so the population mixed during the centuries - have a look on austrians capital vienna - german, slavs ...names.
Schlesia, Galicia, half romania was a part too.
but the origine of the german wall in romania was the defense against the ottoman-empire.
They called saxons and austrians (Altösterreicher) to settle in Siebenbürgen for protecting the wall.
If you call Germans and Austrians spys - then you know nothing about the danger in the last 5 centuries at the eastern front to the ottomans.
Harry

Austria

#20 Dec 5, 2009
So now the politacans in chech are "Klaus, Fischer, Schwarzenberg" and in austria for example "Vranitcky".
Harry

Austria

#21 Dec 5, 2009
and it isn´t only germany that lost 1/3 of the origine land.
austria lost also (basic land): south tyrolia (italy), south corinthia (slovenia), south styria (croatia).
styria = Schwarzenegger was born hehe

and hungeria - millions of them live out of the now basic-hungeria.
so in eastern europe they are quarrelling all time - slovakia-hungeria-rumania-serb ia - have a look on their forums.
they hate each other more than the germans(austrian).
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#22 Dec 5, 2009
Many of the so-called "Ukrainian guards" trained at Trawnicki for service at Sobibior were actually "Volksdeutche"--Germ ans from Ukraine.

He is a good example:

The Chameleon of Trawniki: Jack Reimer, Soviet Volksdeutsche, and the Holocaust

Eric C. Steinhart
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

Holocaust and Genocide Studies 2009 23(2):239-262; doi:10.1093/hgs/dcp032

The crimes and transformations of Jack Reimer, a heavily-implicated ethnic German Holocaust perpetrator, are examined in the following article. Within little more than a generation, Reimer refashioned himself from repressed farmer to Red Army lieutenant; from Soviet POW in German captivity to senior non-commissioned officer at the SS Training Camp in Trawniki, Poland; and finally from wanted war criminal to upstanding American citizen. This article argues that for one ethnic German perpetrator, participation in the Holocaust served as a vehicle for negotiating Eastern Europe's dangerous wartime multiethnic milieu.

http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abs...

John Demjanjuk was not a Volksdeutche.

As a Slav, John Demjanjujk does not fit the ethnic German "Volksdeutche" profile of the Trawicki guards at Sobibor.

That is a issue in the trial.
Dr Lecter

Toronto, Canada

#23 Dec 5, 2009
jimmy agler wrote:
<quoted text>for everyone who complains about our system of justice,there is no way such inflamatory material woudl be read in.they are trying to convict on emotionrather than evidence.
The John Demjanjuk trial has been nothing but heresay and emotion so far --of course, with such a tragedy there will be emotions--but the test is not outrage and feverish accusations.

The test is real evidence that proves "beyond a shadow of a doubt" --not heresay evidence.

Sensational testimony that cannot be cross-examined is great for selling news, but of very limited value in court.

The presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" is the wisest course.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#24 Dec 6, 2009
Dr Lecter wrote:
As a Slav, John Demjanjujk does not fit the ethnic German "Volksdeutche" profile of the Trawicki guards at Sobibor.
That is a issue in the trial.
Stop spamming, moron.
Ivan the Terrible was of Ukrainian origin, and according to witnesses Slaves were more brutal than Germans.

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