Obama: Gun-control advocates have to listen more

Jan 27, 2013 Full story: WOI 665

16, 2013, file photo, President Barack Obama, accompanied by Vice President Joe Biden, talks about proposals to reduce gun violence at the White House in Washington.

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Since: Feb 12

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#632 Feb 19, 2013
1. Concealed carry at 16 — with no permit: Most states that allow people to carry a concealed weapon on their person require gun owners to obtain a permit before doing so. But four states — Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming and Vermont — allow concealed carry without any permit. That means, the Brady Campaign’s Brian Malte tells me, that Jared Loughner was in full compliance with Arizona law up until the moment he used his concealed weapons to kill six people and severely injure Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

Vermont, however, stands out from the pack because it allows people as young as 16 to conceal carry without parental permission, as well as buy handguns. So a Vermont teenager aged 16 can’t legally go to an R-rated movie alone or join the military, but he can buy a handgun and carry it in his jeans and be completely within the limits of the law.

2. Property rights end where gun rights begin: According to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, 17 states, including Oklahoma and Florida, bar employers from preventing their employees from bringing guns to work and keeping them locked in their vehicles, even if those vehicles are on the property of the employer. Indiana and North Dakota allow employees to sue their employers for damages if asked about gun possession. The North Dakota statue specifically bars employers from asking if employees’ vehicles parked on company property have weapons in them. Georgia bars employers from making employment conditional on not bringing guns to work.

Since: Feb 12

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#633 Feb 19, 2013
3. License to kill, even in public: A class of laws, called “castle doctrine” statutes by supporters, in most states clarify that homeowners who feel threatened in their domicile have no duty to retreat from threats or to refrain from the use of deadly force. But most states also have such laws that apply to conflagrations in public places, far removed from the shooter’s “castle.” That is, these 34 states allow people to use deadly force when they feel threatened in public.
These laws vary in severity. Five states, including Ohio and Missouri, only provide for the use of deadly force when the threatened party is in a vehicle. But most states with laws along these lines, most notably Florida, follow the American Legal Exchange Council (ALEC) model law, which bans police from arresting people who use deadly force in public unless there is probable cause that they did not act in response to a perceived threat, and which grants broad immunity from prosecution and civil action to shooters in such case. Indeed, someone who shoots and kills in such a circumstance can himself sue law enforcement agencies if they press charges.
Some researchers have found that castle doctrine laws of this scope, frequently dubbed “stand your ground” laws, have caused a statistically significant increase in homicide rates. The most notorious case where such statutes came into play was the Trayvon Martin case in Sanford, Fla., where George Zimmerman pursued and killed Martin because he states he perceived a threat, despite Martin having no weapons and not having interacted with Zimmerman at all. Zimmerman was eventually charged with second-degree murder by a special prosecutor after the state’s attorney declined to press charges. Zimmerman could still have the charges dismissed under the “stand your ground law” if he demonstrates to a judge that he felt threatened.
Members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League gather in July 2010 to celebrate a new law permitting open carry of guns in bars.(Dayna Smith/For The Washington Post)
4. Open carry without a permit: Most legal disputes around carrying guns in public involved concealed carry. But open carry, which is arguably more threatening to surrounding community members, is largely unregulated. Thirty-five states allow open carry of handguns without a permit, while only three (plus the District of Columbia) ban it outright. Forty-seven states plus the District allow open carry of long guns (that is, rifles or shotguns) in public, while only three ban it.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#634 Feb 19, 2013
Newly minted secretary of state nominee and noted non-8-year-old John Kerry wields a shotgun.(Charlie Neibergall / AP)

5. 8-year-olds with shotguns: Federal law mandates that licensed gun dealers only sell long guns to individuals 18 and older, and handguns to individuals 21 and older. But not all legal gun sellers are federally licensed. For instance, many gun show participants sell guns legally without a federal license. That means that many under 18 and 21 are capable of buying guns legally. As mentioned above, Vermont allows children as young as 16 to buy handguns without parental consent.

What’s more, federal law allows all individuals 18 and older to possess handguns, and has no minimum age for long gun possession. Only 20 states and the District of Columbia have a minimum age for long gun possession. The age is usually set at 18, but in New York it’s only 16, and in Montana it’s 14. So in Helena, one can legally own a shotgun before graduating from 8th grade. And in the 30 states with no such minimum age, you could own one when you’re in elementary school.

Further, only 28 states and the District set a minimum age for sales from unlicensed gun dealers. Twenty-two states, then, have no such minimum age. And in three states, the minimum age for sales only applies to long guns. So in 22 states it is perfectly legal for an 8-year-old to pick up a handgun at a gun show, though he cannot legally possess it. In 20 states that 8 year old can both legally buy a shotgun and possess it.

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder (The Washington Post)

6. Guns at schools: In 2010, Kansas passed a law allowing the concealed carry of guns in K-12 schools, in violation of the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act, which criminalizing the carrying of firearms in specified school zones. That act was ruled unconstitutional in U.S. v. Lopez as exceeding the federal government’s powers under the Commerce Clause, and a revised statute was passed that limits the ban to guns “involved in interstate commerce,” so it is possible that the Kansas statute does not run afoul of federal law in all cases.

This past week, Michigan followed suit, with state legislators passing a law allowing concealed carry in schools, bars, daycare centers and churches. Gov. Rick Snyder (R) has not signed the bill into law, and its ultimate passage is now in doubt due to the Newtown incident.

The 6 craziest state gun laws www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012... ...

Dec 16, 2012 ... Here is a sampling of the most lenient state gun laws in the country, to give a sense of .... Twenty-two states, then, have no such minimum age.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#635 Feb 19, 2013
CB can see both sides wrote:
<quoted text>And I care not how many of your AR15s were used in mass murders.
Any military type weapons that are used by gun nuts in the majority of school shootings should have controls of some sort.
If it's not broke, don't fix it:

n the coming days, journalists will have to provide clear-eyed context to help the nation come to terms with the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Without question this incident will once again spark heated debates over gun-control and school safety. Let’s step back to see what we need to know to cover those stories.

Schools are safe. After days like this, it can be hard to remember that schools are usually the safest place for a child. School violence has been in a steep decline since 1990.

The Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice points out:“A 2010 report on school safety found that during the school year 2008/2009 there were 38 school-associated violent deaths — in a population of about 55.6 million students in grades prekindergarten through 12.”

The same report said,“This report also noted that 83% of public schools reported no serious violent crime; 13% of public schools reported at least one violent incident to the police. The rate of serious violent crime at school was 4 (per 1,000 students) compared to a rate of 8 away from school.”

NPR reported,“School violence in the U.S. reached a peak in 1993, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. That year, there were 42 [total] homicides by students and 13 ‘serious violent crimes’— rape, sexual assault, robbery and aggravated assault — per 1,000 students at primary and secondary schools. By 2010, the latest figures available, those numbers had decreased to two homicides and four violent crimes per 1,000 students.” Update: After a commenter pointed out the implausibility of 42 homicides per 1,000 students, we checked the NCES data. The total number of homicides during the 1992-1993 school year peaked at 34. NPR is updating and correcting its story as well.

The Connecticut law (as in most states) affirms the right to own a gun. The statute says “…every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.” Although Bridgeport, Hartford and New Haven have more restrictive laws than the rest of the state, generally any law abiding citizen age 21 and over can own a rifle or shotgun without a permit. The state does allow concealed weapons to be carried with a permit.

The state has a ban against so called “assault-weapons”(a vague term). Early reports from the Sandy Hook shooting said police recovered two semi-automatic pistols. The Glock 9mm pistol is similar to what police officers nationwide carry. The Sig Sauer pistol is the standard issue pistol that Secret Service agents use. CBS News and others have said police found a “Bushmaster .223&#8243; rifle in the suspected shooter’s vehicle. That rifle is similar to the better known AR-15 that critics commonly call an “assault weapon.”

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/als-mornin...

Since: Aug 12

United States

#636 Feb 19, 2013
CB can see both sides wrote:
<quoted text>And I care not how many of your AR15s were used in mass murders.
Any military type weapons that are used by gun nuts in the majority of school shootings should have controls of some sort.
You're missing the MOST VITAL STATISTIC.

When POLICE stop mass murderers, the average number of people killed is 18.25.

When Concealed Carry Civilians stop mass murderers, the average number of people killed drops to 2.2.

Even the Feds say more gun laws wont affect shootings.

And pigh, your theory will be blown to hell the same way cigarette taxing was blown to hell. People just buy the components and put them together themself. If I smoked I could roll my own for under 20 cents per.

“Now do whats right!”

Since: Jan 09

Doolittle, Mo.

#637 Feb 20, 2013
UdintBuildThat wrote:
<quoted text>
You're missing the MOST VITAL STATISTIC.
When POLICE stop mass murderers, the average number of people killed is 18.25.
When Concealed Carry Civilians stop mass murderers, the average number of people killed drops to 2.2.
Even the Feds say more gun laws wont affect shootings.
And pigh, your theory will be blown to hell the same way cigarette taxing was blown to hell. People just buy the components and put them together themself. If I smoked I could roll my own for under 20 cents per.
So are you emplying that a mass shooting gun nut will assemble his own military type weapon? If so, in that time period, he may change his agenda, if in his case he needs medication he may decide to either refill prescription or to "get back on the meds", or someone {family, friends, professionals, aquaintances, etc.} intervene in his destructive behavior.

In my opinion, any and all controls that may help in the murder of >innocent children< should be used.

I ask this question often, do the majority of parents who have lost children to mass shootings still believe that these assult type weapons and extended magazines have controls.

Or, if one or more of the >dead children< would have been close to you, would you consider controls?

Some have stated this is a trap question, and I say, why would you even consider it as such. A >dead child< is a >dead child< either yours or some other parents.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#639 Feb 20, 2013
CB can see both sides wrote:
<quoted text>So are you emplying that a mass shooting gun nut will assemble his own military type weapon? If so, in that time period, he may change his agenda, if in his case he needs medication he may decide to either refill prescription or to "get back on the meds", or someone {family, friends, professionals, aquaintances, etc.} intervene in his destructive behavior.
In my opinion, any and all controls that may help in the murder of >innocent children< should be used.
I ask this question often, do the majority of parents who have lost children to mass shootings still believe that these assult type weapons and extended magazines have controls.
Or, if one or more of the >dead children< would have been close to you, would you consider controls?
Some have stated this is a trap question, and I say, why would you even consider it as such. A >dead child< is a >dead child< either yours or some other parents.
CB, I think 'Kennesaw', AKA,'U Dint' is talking about building his own Ammo. That is what I had posted about yesterday. Making Ammo more expensive. I am sure he could make his own but he would probably blow his own head off.
I wouldn't want that to happen even though he is a pain in the ass sometimes.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#640 Feb 20, 2013
Cousin DuPrees Cousin wrote:
<quoted text>
CB, I think 'Kennesaw', AKA,'U Dint' is talking about building his own Ammo. That is what I had posted about yesterday. Making Ammo more expensive. I am sure he could make his own but he would probably blow his own head off.
I wouldn't want that to happen even though he is a pain in the ass sometimes.
His point is that if somebody wants something (or wants to do something) they are going to find a way. It's the same point I've been making all along. If we focus on accomplishments rather than strategy, then we all realize gun laws really don't work.

You can't pee on a house fire and say you gained in some way. If you are spending $1,000 a month and it's killing your finances, spending $990.00 isn't solving anything. Removing semi-automatic assault rifles and forcing kooks to use semi-automatic handguns is not going to save anybody's life.

Since: Aug 12

United States

#641 Feb 20, 2013
I see the MOST VITAL STATISTIC still gets glossed over. Like a little kid.... if you didnt read it its not really there.

Right?

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#642 Feb 20, 2013
UdintBuildThat wrote:
I see the MOST VITAL STATISTIC still gets glossed over. Like a little kid.... if you didnt read it its not really there.
Right?
Ok, I am going back to find your most Excellent Vital Statistic, so you don't stomp, your feet, bite your thumb and shit your diaper.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#643 Feb 20, 2013
UdintBuildThat wrote:
I see the MOST VITAL STATISTIC still gets glossed over. Like a little kid.... if you didnt read it its not really there.
Right?
Could you please NAME some of those Civilians who actually STOPPED or Decreased number of Dead in Mass Shootings?
Besides the Civilians who WERE Mass Shooters, but changed their minds or were caught first. Also let me know how you verified this awesome Vital Statistic.
Come on, change your diapee and get with it.

Since: Aug 12

United States

#644 Feb 20, 2013
9/6/1949 - Howard Barton Unruh went on a shooting rampage in Camden, New Jersey with a German Luger. He shot up a barber shop, a pharmacy and a tailor’s shop killing 13 people. He finally surrendered after a shoot-out with police.
.
7/18/1984 – James Oliver Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California killing 21 people before police shoot and killed him.
.
10/16/1991 - George Hennard entered Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and began indiscriminately shooting the patrons. He killed 23 people in all. He commit suicide after being cornered and wounded in a shootout with police.
.
12/7/1993 – Colin Ferguson brought a handgun into a Long Island Rail Road car and opened fire at random. He killed 6 people before passengers Michael O’Connor, Kevin Blum and Mark McEntee tackled him while reloading.
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11/15/1995 – Jamie Rouse used a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle to fire indiscriminately inside Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee. He killed 2 people before being tackled by a football player and a coach.
.
2/2/1996 - Barry Loukaitis entered Frontier Middle School in Moses Lake, Washington with a rifle and two handguns. He killed 3 people before the Gym teacher, Jon Lane grabbed the rifle and wrestled the gunman to the ground.
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10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.
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12/1/1997 - Michael Carneal brought a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns to his high school in Paducah, Kentucky and opened fire on a small prayer group killing 3 girls. His rampage was halted when he was tackled by another student.
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4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
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5/21/1998 - Kipland Kinkel entered Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon with two pistols and a semi-automatic rifle hidden under a trench coat. He opened fire killing 2 students, but while reloading a wounded student named Jacob Ryker tackled him.
.
4/20/1999 - Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school’s armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. 15 people died, not including the shooters.
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7/31/1999 - Mark Barton was a daytrader who went on a shooting rampage through two day trading firms in Atlanta, Georgia. He killed 12 people in all and after a police chase he was surrounded by police at a gas station where he commit suicide.
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1/16/2002 – Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.
.
8/27/2003 – Salvador Tapia entered an auto parts store in Chicago, Illinois and shot and killed 6 people with a handgun. He then waged a gunbattle with police before a SWAT team fatally wounded him.
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9/24/2003 – John Jason McLaughlin brought a .22-caliber pistol to Rocori High School in Cold Spring, Minnesota. He killed 2 people before PE teacher, Mark Johnson confronted him, disarmed him, and held him in the school office for police to arrive.

Since: Aug 12

United States

#645 Feb 20, 2013
2/25/2005 – David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with a rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.
.
3/21/2005 – Jeff Weise was a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota. He killed 7 people including a teacher and a security guard. When police cornered him inside the school, he shot and killed himself.
.
11/8/2005 – Kenneth Bartley, Jr. brought a .22 caliber pistol to Campbell County Comprehensive High School in Jacksboro, Tennessee and killed 1 person before being disarmed by a teacher.
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9/29/2006 – Eric Hainstock brought a .22 caliber revolver and a 20-gauge shotgun into Weston High School in Cazenovia, Wisconson. He killed 1 person before staff and students apprehended him and held him until the police arrived.
.
4/16/2007 – Seung-Hui Cho was the shooter behind the Virgina Tech shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia. Police apprehend the wrong suspect allowing the shooter to walk across campus and open fire again in a second location. He eventually commit suicide after murdering 32 people.
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12/9/2007 – Matthew J. Murray entered the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado and killed 2 people, then went to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado killing 2 more. He was shot and injured by church member Jeanne Assam and commit suicide before police arrived.
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9/3/2008 – Isaac Zamora went on a shooting rampage in Alger, Washington that killed 6 people, including a motorist shot during a high speed chase with police. He eventually surrendered to police.
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3/29/2009 – Robert Stewart went on a killing rampage armed with a rifle, and a shotgun in a nursing home in Carthage, North Carolina. He killed 8 people and was apprehended after a shootout with police.
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4/3/2009 – Jiverly Wong went on a shooting rampage at a American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York where he was enrolled in a citizenship class. 13 people were killed before the shooter killed himself. Witnesses say he turned the gun on himself as soon as he heard police sirens approaching.
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11/5/2009 – Nidal Malik Hasan was the shooter behind the Fort Hood shooting at a military base just outside Killeen, Texas. The shooter entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel are disarmed, armed with a laser sighted pistol and a Smith & Wesson revolver. He killed 13 people before he was shot by a Civilian Police officer.
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2/12/2010 – Amy Bishop went on a shooting rampage in classroom at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, Alabama. She killed 3 people before the Dean of the University, Debra Moriarity pushed the her out of the room and blockaded the door. She was arrested later.
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1/8/2011 – Jared Lee Loughner is charged with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona that killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. He was stopped when he was tackled by two civilians.

Since: Aug 12

United States

#646 Feb 20, 2013
2/27/2012 – T.J. Lane entered Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio with a handgun and started shooting. 3 students died. The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and apprehended by police later.
.
4/22/2012 – Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.
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7/20/2012 – James Holmes went into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. 12 people were killed, before the shooter surrendered to police.
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8/5/2012 – Wade Michael Page entered a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin and opened fire killing 6 people. He commit suicide after being shot by police.
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12/14/12 - Adam Lanza entered Sandy Hook Elementary School with two handguns and a riffle and went room to room shooting students and staff. He killed 27 in all including 20 children, and commit suicide after police arrived.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#647 Feb 20, 2013
U r not serious right? The majority of the above had police intervention. Several listed above, and one not listed,(Loughner, AZ) were ended when shooter attempted to reload. Not all of the above shooters had Semi Auto weapons. So it can't really. Be a true and accurate Vital statistic.

Since: Aug 12

United States

#648 Feb 20, 2013
Those arent where the statistics were counted. But it does go to show more people were killed when it took police intervention as opposed to civilian.

Hands down....

Since: Aug 12

United States

#649 Feb 20, 2013
And you DO realize semi automatic means one bullet shot Per each squeeze of the trigger........ right?????

FULLY AUTOMATIC is when you pull dowm the trigger and multiple rounds are blazing away.....

You did know that...... right??????? Please tell me you understood that already...

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#650 Feb 20, 2013
UdintBuildThat wrote:
And you DO realize semi automatic means one bullet shot Per each squeeze of the trigger........ right?????
FULLY AUTOMATIC is when you pull dowm the trigger and multiple rounds are blazing away.....
You did know that...... right??????? Please tell me you understood that already...
I understand that Kennesaw. I have a semi auto 9MM. But I don't need more than 10 rds in the clip to accomplish whatever I need it for, and neither does anyone else.

Since: Aug 12

United States

#651 Feb 20, 2013
Screw that.... what if 11 guys break in your house? Then what?

Quit drinking the kool aid..... you know 17 rd mags are standard for 9mm right?
guest

Tacoma, WA

#652 Feb 20, 2013
Cousin DuPrees Cousin wrote:
<quoted text>
CB, I think 'Kennesaw', AKA,'U Dint' is talking about building his own Ammo. That is what I had posted about yesterday. Making Ammo more expensive. I am sure he could make his own but he would probably blow his own head off.
I wouldn't want that to happen even though he is a pain in the ass sometimes.
Google 3 d printer gun.

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