Establishment renders harsh verdict o...

Establishment renders harsh verdict on Snowden

There are 94 comments on the Politico story from Jun 12, 2013, titled Establishment renders harsh verdict on Snowden. In it, Politico reports that:

He is the toast of the libertarian left and the libertarian right. But for most of the political establishment, across the ideological spectrum, it has taken only a few days to conclude that Edward Snowden is nothing less than a dangerous villain.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Politico.

sinic

United States

#22 Jun 12, 2013
Kahoki wrote:
...
So let's get this right. The US Government through the NSA violated and broke the law of the land. The US Constitution. They violated the right to privacy and violated the right against illegal search and seizures ... And should Snowden go to jail, then should not the members of the government go to jail as well for their violation of the constitution? Since the constitution is the law of the land....?
As to the law of the land (what the Congress & Supreme Court say it is - your legal opinion is not binding), since the data itself is collected by private service providers who are only bound by Law and legal rulings witch means they must provide data on subpoena or a search warrant (see the 4th amendment), do we really expect that company data to be kept private? Is it OK for them to sell it to another company for whatever purpose the company chooses?

In a memo dated March 14, 2003, an official in the Bush administration stated "... our Office recently concluded that the Fourth Amendment had no application to domestic military operations". The administration believed that any search or surveillance conducted by the National Security Agency of US citizens communicating with foreign nationals abroad was immune to a Fourth Amendment challenge. To protect the telecommunication carriers cooperating with the US government from legal action, the Congress passed a bill updating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 to permit this type of surveillance.

Given the Supreme courts ruling: n Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court ruled that a search occurs when 1) a person expects privacy in the thing searched and 2) society believes that expectation is reasonable. Maybe those two criteria are what we should be talking about.

Since: Mar 11

Location hidden

#23 Jun 12, 2013
As I've asserted before, I'm torn on this case. Did he really put lives in danger, or is it more scare rhetoric ala Eric Holder and the AP seizure?

Another question, why are the many of the same liberals who are clamoring for the leaker's head and censure (or worse) of the reporter, the same ones who cheered Thomas Tamm and the NYT Pulitzer winners for revealing information that directly threatened lives of overseas operatives?
Lamer

Norwalk, OH

#24 Jun 12, 2013
sinic wrote:
would the fix described in the article below work?
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2...
They do not go into very good detail. In my opinion, it would be something like this:

New privacy laws on how much data companies can collect on people and what they can do with it and how long they can hold it. Europe has many great privacy laws in this regard. Even if the NSA wasnt spying, there are laws in place telling telecoms how long they have to retain data at their own expense. There is nothing stopping federal agencies from subpoenaing the data.

People also need to take their data privacy into their own hands using VPNs, proxies, TOR for browsing the internet as well as encryption methods for saving their data. The telecoms could end this with encrypting their data. People can also look into getting scrambled phones or encrypted long range walkie talkies.

The FISA court is also apparently not working as intended with their rubber stamping of 99.997% of all cases. Yes that is a 0.003% denial rating.

Congress should be working to get these secret judges thrown out as they are supposed to be the check to the judicial branch. The executive branch over stepped (as one should expect) and the Judicial Branch did not stop them when they should have in our Checks & Balances system. If the Judicial Branch isnt going to do their jobs then the Legislative Branch needs to take care of them and put people whom will do their jobs.

Now if Congress fails to do anything then what you have is 1 big circle jerk.
Lamer

Norwalk, OH

#25 Jun 12, 2013
tha Professor wrote:
<quoted text>
OTOH, lack of such security has been blamed for the rise of al-qai'da, their easy access to the U.S. and the events of 9/11, as well as other terrorist attacks. Many feel that security includes monitoring of communications for patterns indicative of terrorist activities. What if we cut back on all such surveillance and then another 9/11 occurred? Who would you blame then? How would the authorities justify cutting back on surveillance?
I don't like spying on Americans either, but there IS another side to it. Terrorism may be used to justify a lot of things, sometimes wrongly, but it IS real.
Lack of security where? I can point to signature strikes where we bomb who know who and say they increase extremists. There are many things that can piss them off but taking my freedoms away is playing right into their hands. Bin Laden said it himself in his "Speech to American People". We are going to self inflict these wounds as we already have.

And i do not need to speak in hypothetical s like another 911. I am sure eventually another will happen regardless of how much freedom we give up. Its part of having an open society and i believe that is much more important.

And now lets look at some numbers; you more likely to die from your living room furniture than you are a terrorist in this country. You are 1000x times more likely to die from a federal agent of this country than you are to your living room furniture...or a terrorist.

And yes terrorism is real, it always has been and it always will be which is why having a "war" on terror only makes sense if you are trying to use it in a deceiving way as there is no end to terror. We have been through so much rougher yet here your ready it give up so much and for what? Can you really even say what its all for?

Fighting terrorism? Yeah, but how vague is that? Because to me it seems that this war is to acquire more power for the federal gov than it ever had before. All for a threat of some people across the globe from shitty 3rd world countries and limited education and very little backing from any real nation state. Seems way over hyped to me.
Lamer

Norwalk, OH

#26 Jun 12, 2013
Aprilvue wrote:
As I've asserted before, I'm torn on this case. Did he really put lives in danger, or is it more scare rhetoric ala Eric Holder and the AP seizure?
Another question, why are the many of the same liberals who are clamoring for the leaker's head and censure (or worse) of the reporter, the same ones who cheered Thomas Tamm and the NYT Pulitzer winners for revealing information that directly threatened lives of overseas operatives?
There are many fake liberals out there. The journalist Glenn Greenwald whom published the NSA docs wrote/spoke many years ago how once Bush was gone and Obama took over how easily lib/progressives rolled over. It was a bit shocking to see them cheer the outing of undercover agents though.

“Voters elect Big Bird”

Since: Jan 07

Dump American Eagle

#27 Jun 12, 2013
Candidate Obama,during the run up to the General Election in 08',LAMBASTED President Bush about the Patriot Act. Campaigned against it as a GOP power grab. Even voted against it while in the Senate. What does he do when elected President? EXPANDS IT,puts it on steroids. In the name of "National Security"..... Sound familiar? Every lib talking head on every cable outlet and newspaper condemned Bush for it. Now we have THIS coming out. Whatever side of this you are now on remember one thing. The 4th Amendment has either been or is dangerously close to being violated by the very people we TRUST(?)to protect it.

This seems to have become a habit of this Administration.... First we had the assault on the 2nd Amendment after the Newton shooting. Then there was the AP/James Rosen debacle that threatened the 1st Amendment. Now this. Where does it end with this President and his Chicago flunkies? Who,he says,knows NOTHING about any of it. Is he lying? Stupid? Or just plain incompetent?
sinic

United States

#28 Jun 12, 2013
lawsuit filed on this matter:

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/freedom-watch...

Since: Feb 07

Location hidden

#29 Jun 12, 2013
The electedELITE, with multiple identities pass judgement before trial on a whistle blower. The more powerful and bigger government is the spider's trap.
sinic

United States

#30 Jun 12, 2013
Lamer wrote:
<quoted text>
They do not go into very good detail. In my opinion, it would be something like this:
New privacy laws on how much data companies can collect on people and what they can do with it and how long they can hold it. Europe has many great privacy laws in this regard. Even if the NSA wasnt spying, there are laws in place telling telecoms how long they have to retain data at their own expense. There is nothing stopping federal agencies from subpoenaing the data.
People also need to take their data privacy into their own hands using VPNs, proxies, TOR for browsing the internet as well as encryption methods for saving their data. The telecoms could end this with encrypting their data. People can also look into getting scrambled phones or encrypted long range walkie talkies.
The FISA court is also apparently not working as intended with their rubber stamping of 99.997% of all cases. Yes that is a 0.003% denial rating.
Congress should be working to get these secret judges thrown out as they are supposed to be the check to the judicial branch. The executive branch over stepped (as one should expect) and the Judicial Branch did not stop them when they should have in our Checks & Balances system. If the Judicial Branch isnt going to do their jobs then the Legislative Branch needs to take care of them and put people whom will do their jobs.
Now if Congress fails to do anything then what you have is 1 big circle jerk.
Thanks for responding, you are unusual on Topix, you suggestions are worth consideration.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#31 Jun 12, 2013
I'm not keen on the timing of this....something Bush/Cheney installed, years ago....and now, because it is politically expedient for the Far Reich and many others to blame President Obama....

Since: Feb 07

Location hidden

#32 Jun 12, 2013
The establishment Democratic and RhINO dealmakers are now the walking wounded.
Both have no love for the TeaParty, wonder why.
fatbacks x

Colville, WA

#33 Jun 12, 2013
tea-baggage wrote:
<quoted text>
That is true. The other side of the coin is that he really didn't expose anything that intelligent people should not have already known – or at least strongly suspected.
All 535 members of Congress had authorization to learn all about the programs. Senators even received a written invitation in 2011 to view a classified report. Likewise, Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.), a former chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, said Monday that members “could have gotten a briefing whenever they wanted to.”
Very few ever did. And yet the House last year turned back attempts to require public reports on the general outlines of the government’s surveillance programs. The various disclosure proposals, offered by Democratic Reps. Bobby Scott (Va.), Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.) and Sheila Jackson Lee (Tex.), were defeated by the Judiciary Committee.
In the Senate, amendments to provide modest disclosures and declassifications, offered by Wyden and fellow Democratic Sens. Jeff Merkley (Ore.) and Mark Udall (Colo.) during the FISA renewal in December, were all defeated.
The FISA court itself colluded in the secrecy. After senators asked the court to provide declassified summaries of its decisions, the chief FISA judge, Reggie B. Walton, responded with a letter on March 27 citing “serious obstacles” to the request.
Your Republican-controlled House of Representatives hard at work - keeping you (and themselves) in the dark.
To be expected of squatters.

Since: Feb 07

Location hidden

#34 Jun 12, 2013
fatbacks x wrote:
<quoted text>To be expected of squatters.
It is amazing how valuable the tool of DENIABILITY is used so far from the department and party heads.
The whistle blowers seem to flush out the cowards and out right liars.
Cat74

United States

#35 Jun 12, 2013
Obama, and his cultists have fun saying, "You can't prove the President had anything to do with any of this." And we can't, yet. Now we know there is a secret network provided by Google for these corrupt criminal politicians to communicate in secret. Now Google will be pressed to turn over what they have done for the criminal element, or face charges. They won't take the fall for the criminals. Time for Democrats to do for America what Republicans did for America under Nixon. Tell obama he will be impeached. He has dirtied the reputation of the 1st black President.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#36 Jun 13, 2013
Obama, and his cultists.......LOL....
Cat74

United States

#37 Jun 13, 2013
Glad you find incompetence so funny. George Bush was a genius next to this college drop out. Obama might have 3 1/2 more years on this term, but he will be too busy trying to clean up his messes to do much more damage to the country.
fatbacks x

Colville, WA

#38 Jun 13, 2013
No matter what's revealed, the merikan peoples will not comprehend it. So the big deal is all about fear and uncertainty, like terrorist, TBTF, Jesus coming back, obamacare, interest rates, big computors in utah, Televangilists, an illegal getting your job cuz he's smarter and not as lazy as you, irs agents coming to take guns, Korea's firecracker boy, who's going to be the next dumba-- potus, and most of all that pill on tv that'll cure you, but will make you s--t purple carpet tacks and make you suicidal. No wonder those new guinea headhunters laugh their as-' off at us. Jesus! a person could go on forever with the "fear list" here in the land of the free and home of the brave?

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#39 Jun 13, 2013
Cat74 wrote:
Glad you find incompetence so funny. George Bush was a genius next to this college drop out. Obama might have 3 1/2 more years on this term, but he will be too busy trying to clean up his messes to do much more damage to the country.
...Totally clueless....the lies are getting easier, for ya....

“BILLARY 2016 ”

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#40 Jun 13, 2013
Snowden is a HS dropout who sold our secrets to China and then ran away to Hong Kong to be protected by our #1 enemy.

Funny that Snowden doesn't think the Gov should be watching it's citizens and then he goes to Hong Kong, a country where every citizen is watched 24/7 and has no freedom whatsoever.

Not only did he commit treason, but he's dumber than a stump and your typical Rand Paul follower. They hate America but love themselves and their own self promotion.

This man, Snowden...his life is over. I for one hope the CIA has big plans for him that one can only hope involve a waterboard.

“BILLARY 2016 ”

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#41 Jun 13, 2013
Lamer wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many fake liberals out there. The journalist Glenn Greenwald whom published the NSA docs wrote/spoke many years ago how once Bush was gone and Obama took over how easily lib/progressives rolled over. It was a bit shocking to see them cheer the outing of undercover agents though.
Glenn Greenwald is nothing more than a tool for the GOP and Snowden is just a straight-up tool.

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