Their View: School choice improves educational outcomes

Jan 17, 2013 Full story: Las Cruces Sun-News 17

School Choice Week is right around the corner. This year's celebration includes a special cross-country "whistle stop" train tour with stops in 14 cities from coast-to-coast, including Albuquerque.

Full Story
They

Santa Fe, NM

#1 Jan 17, 2013
keep printing these editorials by this anti-tax, anti-public sector lobby masquerading as a non-profit, tax exempt think tank.

We have always had school choice. I went to Catholic school as my parents wanted and paid for. What these people want to do is to destroy our tradition of society providing free public education for all by stealing the limited money for education and redirecting it to private concerns.

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#2 Jan 17, 2013
School choice tends to exclude underachievers which is what tends to inflate their record. What they create is a larger burden upon public schools by creating more 'throw away' kids, those they exclude. What public schools need is some serious reform and to hell with this 'Johnny will feel bad about himself" BS. Do what needs to be done, make the hard choices! Our kids and grand kids deserve better.

If one wants to PAY for a private school, fine, but IMO no public dollars or public assets whatsoever should be expended towards them in any manner, way, shape or form.

“come to Richie,, ”

Since: Nov 10

4-corners man

#3 Jan 17, 2013
CornDogz wrote:
School choice tends to exclude underachievers which is what tends to inflate their record. What they create is a larger burden upon public schools by creating more 'throw away' kids, those they exclude. What public schools need is some serious reform and to hell with this 'Johnny will feel bad about himself" BS. Do what needs to be done, make the hard choices! Our kids and grand kids deserve better.
If one wants to PAY for a private school, fine, but IMO no public dollars or public assets whatsoever should be expended towards them in any manner, way, shape or form.
Truth!

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#4 Jan 17, 2013
Was trying to fond out what-all generally speaking the $368mil bond/mil we're voting on Feb 5th encompasses, along with school board elections. If you're interested in what your particular school will get, go to http://www.apsfacilities.org/capital/0613cs/m...

Note that the above go back to 2005 so it appears the items at the bottom of the list are what this $368mil phase would cover, note I said appears...

-=ALSO=-

Most amusing as it relates to charter schools:
http://www.aps.edu/news/aps-board-of-educatio...
Additionally, APS has dedicated more than $34 million exclusively toward the design and construction of charter schools in the district over the next four years. Thatís more than any authorizer in New Mexico.

APS is currently housing six charter schools in district-owned buildings and has spent more than $14 million for the acquisition and refurbishment of these facilities.

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#5 Jan 17, 2013
As another most amusing note from:

http://atfunion.org/2013/01/10/2013-aps-board...

One can find which candidates the ATF (teachers union) endorses. YMMV but I look at it as a list to NOT vote for given IMO the lack of credibility of the ATF.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#6 Jan 18, 2013
CornDogz wrote:
School choice tends to exclude underachievers which is what tends to inflate their record. What they create is a larger burden upon public schools by creating more 'throw away' kids, those they exclude. What public schools need is some serious reform and to hell with this 'Johnny will feel bad about himself" BS. Do what needs to be done, make the hard choices! Our kids and grand kids deserve better.
If one wants to PAY for a private school, fine, but IMO no public dollars or public assets whatsoever should be expended towards them in any manner, way, shape or form.
I don't lump charter schools in with private schools. Both of my children go to charter schools, as did my step daughter. I can tell you they wouldn't trade their schools for mainstream APS for anything! Interestingly, my son's school has a pure lottery system, whereas my daughter's school has an application process, complete with transcripts. I firmly believe they are receiving a better education and school experience.

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#7 Jan 18, 2013
Just left of right wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't lump charter schools in with private schools. Both of my children go to charter schools, as did my step daughter. I can tell you they wouldn't trade their schools for mainstream APS for anything! Interestingly, my son's school has a pure lottery system, whereas my daughter's school has an application process, complete with transcripts. I firmly believe they are receiving a better education and school experience.
I don't dislike them from a learning standpoint, I dislike them for the drain they put on mainstream school budgets and that of the taxpayers. If they are doing something really great then the APS (for instance) needs to look closely at this and adopt something similar. As it is, the APS is required by law to fund all these charter schools. The sheer cost of the buildings, rented now and within a couple years newly built, is going to be staggering. Add to that the duplicate positions and services and someone is getting left behind, the throw-away kids. Particularly because they can cherry pick (as I understand it) the kids they want, be they private or charter. I don't know this to be the case in all but for most it is. Certainly was for the one my GD attended for several months, then left because she truly disliked it, the curriculum and the teachers. She's excelling in public middle school at the moment. Obviously it works for some and not for others.

Like so many other things in our society today, some serious reform is necessary in order to get things back to smart and acceptable levels. What many of the charter schools are proving, those not rift with corruption as have made the news, is that things can work better. There is more than one way to achieve, and all within the Education Dept's guidelines. They are showing where the public schools are failing, but nobody has picked up the torch yet. Maybe with some new faces on the APS schoolboard...

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#8 Jan 19, 2013
CornDogz wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't dislike them from a learning standpoint, I dislike them for the drain they put on mainstream school budgets and that of the taxpayers. If they are doing something really great then the APS (for instance) needs to look closely at this and adopt something similar. As it is, the APS is required by law to fund all these charter schools. The sheer cost of the buildings, rented now and within a couple years newly built, is going to be staggering. Add to that the duplicate positions and services and someone is getting left behind, the throw-away kids. Particularly because they can cherry pick (as I understand it) the kids they want, be they private or charter. I don't know this to be the case in all but for most it is. Certainly was for the one my GD attended for several months, then left because she truly disliked it, the curriculum and the teachers. She's excelling in public middle school at the moment. Obviously it works for some and not for others.
Like so many other things in our society today, some serious reform is necessary in order to get things back to smart and acceptable levels. What many of the charter schools are proving, those not rift with corruption as have made the news, is that things can work better. There is more than one way to achieve, and all within the Education Dept's guidelines. They are showing where the public schools are failing, but nobody has picked up the torch yet. Maybe with some new faces on the APS schoolboard...
I'm pretty sure my daughter's school "cherry picks" but the one my stepdaughter went to and the one my son goes to truly have just a lottery system. Trust me, one of the kids who got into his school is bad news. He was banned from my house long before they went to their current school.

As far as resources, I'm not so sure. My son's school is completely made up of APS owned portables on APS vacant land. They really do need an actual school but they are low on the list. I really don't see what difference it makes, as far as overall costs, between "charter schools" and mainstream APS. The children have to go to school somewhere! Another upside is that starting new schools helps a little with the problem of classroom overcrowding.

All of my children were in mainstream APS through elementary and my daughter went to McKinley Middle School. Their educational standards SUCK! I still remember reporting a 4th grade teacher for being ridiculously stupid, long story. She was "reassigned" to 1st grade!

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#9 Jan 19, 2013
Just left of right wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm pretty sure my daughter's school "cherry picks" but the one my stepdaughter went to and the one my son goes to truly have just a lottery system. Trust me, one of the kids who got into his school is bad news. He was banned from my house long before they went to their current school.
As far as resources, I'm not so sure. My son's school is completely made up of APS owned portables on APS vacant land. They really do need an actual school but they are low on the list. I really don't see what difference it makes, as far as overall costs, between "charter schools" and mainstream APS. The children have to go to school somewhere! Another upside is that starting new schools helps a little with the problem of classroom overcrowding.
All of my children were in mainstream APS through elementary and my daughter went to McKinley Middle School. Their educational standards SUCK! I still remember reporting a 4th grade teacher for being ridiculously stupid, long story. She was "reassigned" to 1st grade!
If they were to take the money used to rent/build/buy bldgs from charter schools and channel it to put permanent bldgs on current campuses it may well end up as a wash. As it is, the APS has some oversight (not that is particularly a good thing given it's APS) of charter schools but are in many cases forced by law to supply this and that. That's where a lot of duplication exists. I can understand the portables with the continuous shifting of areas where kids live too though. But marble floors in schools is pretty dumb too IMO (hypothetical example???).

In all I see us looking for answers and branching out, but too much branching leads to dilution of funds, and NM isn't loaded, even if the APS has an annual total budget of over $1.3bil (yes billion). I think we could do more and better with those monies for our kiddo's. What I don't want to see is kids left behind for whatever reason(s) barring the truly extreme cases, and even those can be handled out of the mainstream. Any drain on funds like in general charter schools cause this it appears. I also don't want to see those who excel held back either, that's why I'm an advocate for the advanced classes as well as those who struggle and have to take lower level classes. Let me define the last by saying LEGAL UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

I ponder to if the APS is just too large, unwieldy and perhaps should be split. That's a multi-faceted issue too.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#10 Jan 19, 2013
CornDogz wrote:
<quoted text>
If they were to take the money used to rent/build/buy bldgs from charter schools and channel it to put permanent bldgs on current campuses it may well end up as a wash. As it is, the APS has some oversight (not that is particularly a good thing given it's APS) of charter schools but are in many cases forced by law to supply this and that. That's where a lot of duplication exists. I can understand the portables with the continuous shifting of areas where kids live too though. But marble floors in schools is pretty dumb too IMO (hypothetical example???).
In all I see us looking for answers and branching out, but too much branching leads to dilution of funds, and NM isn't loaded, even if the APS has an annual total budget of over $1.3bil (yes billion). I think we could do more and better with those monies for our kiddo's. What I don't want to see is kids left behind for whatever reason(s) barring the truly extreme cases, and even those can be handled out of the mainstream. Any drain on funds like in general charter schools cause this it appears. I also don't want to see those who excel held back either, that's why I'm an advocate for the advanced classes as well as those who struggle and have to take lower level classes. Let me define the last by saying LEGAL UNITED STATES CITIZENS.
I ponder to if the APS is just too large, unwieldy and perhaps should be split. That's a multi-faceted issue too.
I'm guessing you've done more research than I. I'm looking at things from my perspective. My son's school is sorely underfunded, whereas my daughter's school is state-of-the-art. Can you show me, links and such, that compare the costs of charter schools to regular schools? I just don't understand why it costs more for them to attend charter schools than mainstreem schools..

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#11 Jan 19, 2013
Just left of right wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm guessing you've done more research than I. I'm looking at things from my perspective. My son's school is sorely underfunded, whereas my daughter's school is state-of-the-art. Can you show me, links and such, that compare the costs of charter schools to regular schools? I just don't understand why it costs more for them to attend charter schools than mainstreem schools..
Nothing specific, just what I've gleaned from several years of reading about them and the requirements placed upon the APS for minimal oversight. Its really a convoluted mess. Then you have the newspaper stories where some in charge were getting several salaries for the same job,split salaries to oversee two or more schools, nepotism, all manner of normal NM hiring irregularities. Remember the grossly inflated attendance one charter had the beginning of this school year so they could get more public funding? IIRC their real numbers were around 20%-25% of what they reported to the state.

IIRC, approved charters will have to have at taxpayer expense, permanent buildings for their schools by 2015 (I may be off on the year). IIRC these can no longer be rented structures so it appears the APS has to buy them for the charters or have them built. That of course involves land acquisition and all the environmental studies etc. That's why I'm in general an advocate of larger campuses & less physical schools instead of more physical schools. The requirements and costs are outrageous, and as we build more for the few, the many get less. This is of course generally speaking as there are always some necessary alternatives.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#12 Jan 19, 2013
CornDogz wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing specific, just what I've gleaned from several years of reading about them and the requirements placed upon the APS for minimal oversight. Its really a convoluted mess. Then you have the newspaper stories where some in charge were getting several salaries for the same job,split salaries to oversee two or more schools, nepotism, all manner of normal NM hiring irregularities. Remember the grossly inflated attendance one charter had the beginning of this school year so they could get more public funding? IIRC their real numbers were around 20%-25% of what they reported to the state.
IIRC, approved charters will have to have at taxpayer expense, permanent buildings for their schools by 2015 (I may be off on the year). IIRC these can no longer be rented structures so it appears the APS has to buy them for the charters or have them built. That of course involves land acquisition and all the environmental studies etc. That's why I'm in general an advocate of larger campuses & less physical schools instead of more physical schools. The requirements and costs are outrageous, and as we build more for the few, the many get less. This is of course generally speaking as there are always some necessary alternatives.
From an accounting perspective, I suppose I would be more critical. However, as a parent, I am ever so grateful for the opportunities afforded my children! I am also very pleased to learn that my son's school may, finally, get a permanent residence! Of course, considering they have children traveling, daily, from Santa Fe and Bernalillo, I worry it will be too far lol!

“US Navy”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#13 Jan 20, 2013
From an individual standpoint its all good, but from an overall perspective its suspect at best. Particularly because the government is behind those rules & laws, yet they claim to be all for public ed.

“Freedom is never free”

Since: Jan 09

El Paso, Texas

#14 Jan 20, 2013
CornDogz wrote:
School choice tends to exclude underachievers which is what tends to inflate their record. What they create is a larger burden upon public schools by creating more 'throw away' kids, those they exclude. What public schools need is some serious reform and to hell with this 'Johnny will feel bad about himself" BS. Do what needs to be done, make the hard choices! Our kids and grand kids deserve better.
If one wants to PAY for a private school, fine, but IMO no public dollars or public assets whatsoever should be expended towards them in any manner, way, shape or form.
Not here to argue with you Corn, but remember back during the campaign your wonderful chocolate cake susana martinez supported school vouchers? She may have changed somewhat on that, but at the time she was full tilt.

From your ending statement that almost sounds like you would not have supported Martinez had she stayed her course.

By the way I'll be back because I found something out that she did and it's quite hypocritical of her. Well to a certain degree. I mean she said she was against a specific thing and then now as governor she did the exact same thing and probably cost your state an untold amount of money or at least "robbed," and I do use that term loosely, your state of for sure tax money.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#15 Jan 21, 2013
justice is just a choice wrote:
<quoted text>
Not here to argue with you Corn, but remember back during the campaign your wonderful chocolate cake susana martinez supported school vouchers? She may have changed somewhat on that, but at the time she was full tilt.
From your ending statement that almost sounds like you would not have supported Martinez had she stayed her course.
By the way I'll be back because I found something out that she did and it's quite hypocritical of her. Well to a certain degree. I mean she said she was against a specific thing and then now as governor she did the exact same thing and probably cost your state an untold amount of money or at least "robbed," and I do use that term loosely, your state of for sure tax money.
OMFG, do you really have to pollute a thread dedicated to children with your dribble? A bit hypocritical, dontcha think?

“Freedom is never free”

Since: Jan 09

El Paso, Texas

#16 Jan 22, 2013
Just left of right wrote:
<quoted text>OMFG, do you really have to pollute a thread dedicated to children with your dribble? A bit hypocritical, dontcha think?
Um...

Speaking of children you are behaving quite childish.

Seems I replied to Corn, noting his remark about not being for public money going towards private schools and I chose to remind him that was something Martinez was for and still is per se and then you come along and give nothing, but senselessness.

You might want to take the time to regroup.

“Each Thought Creates A Reality”

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#17 Jan 23, 2013
No wonder the ranks of homeschoolers grow.

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