Evolution vs. Creation

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“what we think we become”

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71427 Jan 20, 2013
nemesis wrote:
<quoted text>Im not trying to scare you....it just happened. We wre not even thinking about anything like that. It just happened. So, two people can have the same dream in the same instant?
No. You asked why these beings don't make contact with humans. And I was just suggesting a way to experience them because I sorta did. I have seen a UFO that just vanished and a strange looking airplane that disappeared in an area where there was no airport nearby. But it happened during the day before an air show. So maybe they were part of a drill or practice. Who knows.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71428 Jan 20, 2013
If every possible Universe, from the most chaotic to the most regular, actually exists at some point, then you're going to have observers only in the relatively regular ones.(Too chaotic, no life, and too regular, not enough variety to produce life.)
If the Universe were sufficiently chaotic, we wouldn't be around to observe it, remember?
Cybele wrote:
So now you want to call it 'regular' rather than intelligent.
No, I'm pointing out that all possible Universes fall along a spectrum from completely chaotic to completely orderly.(If you prefer the word "orderly" to "regular", that's fine.) These result from all of the possible values of the universal constants.

It has nothing to do with whether anything is "intelligent".
Cybele wrote:
Intelligent is what it is.
How so?
Cybele wrote:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there are organized orders in everything from nature to human affairs. Order out of chaos.
Again, if the Universe were sufficiently chaotic, we wouldn't be here to observe it. So the only type of Universe in which there can be observers are Universes that are sufficiently ordered.

Where exactly in any of that does it say that an "intelligence" *caused* it?

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71429 Jan 20, 2013
jkjkhardcore wrote:
<quoted text>Actually the Big Bang is just a theory that gives a suggested answer to how the universe was created and is based on how the galaxy moves. It has more evidence than the bible which for the most part seem to be a collection of stories gathered together by a bunch of "disciples" or "gospels" that lend no evidence and points to the supernatural. If in modern day someone were to find a book similar to the bible they would disregard it as fairy tales and nonfiction. But I do have to say that the bible has played many important parts in human history, but so has the koran, the torah and many confucian teachings.
And all three plus the seven stone tablets from Sumerian all tell of the same creation.

The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).

The Quran states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). This seem similar to the account related in the Bible.

Torah

1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.

2. Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
5. And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.
6. And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water, and let it be a separation between water and water."

The Bible

Genesis
1

The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. 2 Pet. 3.5 And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry landappear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Seven stone Tablets of creation:
Sumerian cuneiform stone tablets and writings that are 6,000 years old.
The Sumerian culture, the first civilization to invent writing as a complete written language, recorded stories that have been preserved through the modern day biblical passages found in the Old and New testament. All of which speak of a time when man lived among their living gods here on earth. The Sumerians had 7 sacred tablets that explained our creation. These stories preserved in stone, are now told to us in the form of the english version, "7 days of creation".

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71430 Jan 20, 2013
nemesis wrote:
The more we learn, the more we understand that with the universe having infinite earth-like planets the odds of an advanced civilization existing is fact, not fiction. Why they will not make direct and factual contact is a mystery.
It's not a mystery at all. There can be countless advanced civilizations in the Universe. That doesn't mean that they have the capability to communicate across interstellar distances (let alone travel between them).

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71431 Jan 20, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>We have more proof of evolution aka 'Darwinism' then you do for Allah (pbuh)
The thing is you have zero proof of Macro evolution. As far a micro evolution no big deal there, so some genes get turn on or off. Big deal.

Not one fossil proves Macro evolution
Not once has it been observed.
Never in the history of the planet has macro evolution left behind a bit of proof that it ever happened.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71433 Jan 20, 2013
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>Can you define "kind"?

Is "Bird of Prey" a kind? Or just "bird"? Or "Anything with feathers"?

Is "Primate" a kind? Or "Mammal"? Or "Animal"?

If I present you with an as of yet undiscovered animal, how would you know which "kind" it should be?

How many "kinds" are there?

How do I determine if something like a penguin is "bird kind" or "fish kind"?

What about something like a snail? Is it the same kind as a slug?

Are snakes and false snakes both "snake kind"? Or are false snakes "lizard kind"? Or are they all "reptile kind"? Or are they all "things that lay eggs kind"?
Created kinds are organisms that are defined by creation biology as sharing a common ancestry. The phrase refers to the Genesis account of the creation week during which God created many kinds of plants and animals. They are also referred to as "original kinds," "Genesis kinds," and more formally by creation scientists as baramin The term barmin was coined in 1941 by Frank Marsh from the Hebrew words bara (create) and min (kind). The study of baramin (known as Baraminology) is a rapidly growing field of creation science involved with the identification of the created kinds.[1]

The concept of the "created kind" originates from the biblical book of Genesis where it is first mentioned in chapter 1.

"The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a third day... Then God said,'Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.' God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying,'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.' There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Then God said,'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind'; and it was so."Genesis 1:12-24
In contrast to the evolutionary principle of common ancestry, creation biologists argue that organisms were created in a finite number of discrete forms as described in the Bible, which subsequently diversified through speciation and microevolution. There is much uncertainty about what exactly the Bible means when it talks of "kinds".

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71434 Jan 20, 2013
Thomas Robertson wrote:
Those poor Biblical Creationists have gotten caught in a double bind.
The more kinds they recognize, the more work they impose on Noah and his seven trusty crewman.
The fewer kinds they recognize, the more evolving--excuse me, adapting--they impose on the animals, and in just 4500 years.

Did Noah take only two dogs? That's 35 species in 14 genera.
Did Noah take only two bats? That's 850 species.
Did Noah take only two worms? That's 28,000 species in 18 phyla, which is over half the phyla in the Animal Kingdom.
How about beetles? That's half a million species.

Duane Gish claimed that the concept of kinds can be understood by "any high school student with average intelligence." However, he cannot remember his own system. On page 35 of the 1978 edition of Evolution: The Fossils Say No! hhe assigns a slot each to gibbons, chimpanzees, and gorillas, but 0on page 47, he designates all apes as a "major kind."
You should really brush up on your bible passages if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

"Noah was commanded to take into the ark all the animals on land in whose nostrils was the breath of life (Genesis 6:17, 7:14-15, 22). There is no reason to believe that all the varieties of insects were on the ark because they breathe through their skin and do not have nostrils. They could have survived on floating matter or by burrowing in the mud. Some of the insects may have been on the ark in the fur of the animals or in nooks and crannies of the ark. The Bible does not teach that they had to be on board."

That goes for worms as well.

“what we think we become”

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71435 Jan 20, 2013
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>If every possible Universe, from the most chaotic to the most regular, actually exists at some point, then you're going to have observers only in the relatively regular ones.(Too chaotic, no life, and too regular, not enough variety to produce life.)
If the Universe were sufficiently chaotic, we wouldn't be around to observe it, remember?

No, I'm pointing out that all possible Universes fall along a spectrum from completely chaotic to completely orderly.(If you prefer the word "orderly" to "regular", that's fine.) These result from all of the possible values of the universal constants.

It has nothing to do with whether anything is "intelligent".

Cybele wrote, "Intelligent is what it is."

How so?

Cybele wrote, "Whether you want to admit it or not, there are organized orders in everything from nature to human affairs. Order out of chaos."

Again, if the Universe were sufficiently chaotic, we wouldn't be here to observe it. So the only type of Universe in which there can be observers are Universes that are sufficiently ordered.

Where exactly in any of that does it say that an "intelligence" *caused* it?
Why does it matter what it's called? I know it's obvious you're skeptic about intelligent design. And that it goes against the theory of evolution because we supposedly evolved from simpler life forms. If the universe evolved from the simplest matter then what caused order and intelligence of the universe, nature, and in our species?

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#71436 Jan 20, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
I really cannot imagine, how anyone can look at the incomprehensible complexity of design, in the structure of the Universe, and not be able to perceive some sort of intelligence behind it...albeit forever beyond the limited capacities of the human intellect...
and this is the concept of God, that that people like Edison and Einstein have... a incomprehensible underlying intelligence, that is plainly self evident in the structure of the Universe.
It's incomprehensible to you because you refuse to look past the surface.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#71437 Jan 20, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
The thing is you have zero proof of Macro evolution. As far a micro evolution no big deal there, so some genes get turn on or off. Big deal.
Not one fossil proves Macro evolution
Not once has it been observed.
Never in the history of the planet has macro evolution left behind a bit of proof that it ever happened.
I don't give a sh!t about your macro evolution. Get it through your head...evolution is proven.

Nitpick all you want, you cannot bring down what is truth.

People better than you ever will be have tried for 150+ years now and they have all failed.

Fundamentalist creatards are the only ones disputing evolution.
jkjkhardcore

Westbury, NY

#71438 Jan 20, 2013
nemesis wrote:
<quoted text>What would humans do if they knew that an energy or control could make their mind fall asleep....? Knowing it exist. Its real. its scary. What ramifications would that bring to human existence?
wtf are you talking about?
jkjkhardcore

Westbury, NY

#71439 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
And all three plus the seven stone tablets from Sumerian all tell of the same creation.
The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).
The Quran states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). This seem similar to the account related in the Bible.
Torah
1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
2. Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
5. And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.
6. And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water, and let it be a separation between water and water."
The Bible
Genesis
1
The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. 2 Pet. 3.5 And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry landappear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Seven stone Tablets of creation:
Sumerian cuneiform stone tablets and writings that are 6,000 years old.
The Sumerian culture, the first civilization to invent writing as a complete written language, recorded stories that have been preserved through the modern day biblical passages found in the Old and New testament. All of which speak of a time when man lived among their living gods here on earth. The Sumerians had 7 sacred tablets that explained our creation. These stories preserved in stone, are now told to us in the form of the english version, "7 days of creation".
Well what can I say to that? Because it's written down in several different books on the same subject that it has to be true? The fact that the bible is based off of the Torah, and the Koran is printed/created much later doesn't this alone explain the similarities? But even if they all tell the same story what evidence suggests that this is the true story, this is how creation came to be? After all it is a story and it could have been a major belief way back in the day, but then why don't all humans like tribes in Africa or Asians, or Native Americans or the greeks, or the Vikings (thor loki believers) believe the same creation story? How can you say your story's legit and theirs is not?

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#71440 Jan 21, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't give a sh!t about your macro evolution. Get it through your head...evolution is proven.
Nitpick all you want, you cannot bring down what is truth.
People better than you ever will be have tried for 150+ years now and they have all failed.
Fundamentalist creatards are the only ones disputing evolution.
Great thing about science.
It's rue whether you believe in it or not.(Paraphrase from Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

“ROCK ON ROCKERS!!”

Since: Mar 11

Rockin' USA ;)

#71441 Jan 21, 2013
This thread WILL never expire.. theory after theory will be discussed and challenged until the end of time..

“Don't be mad at me.”

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#71442 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
You should really brush up on your bible passages if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
"Noah was commanded to take into the ark all the animals on land in whose nostrils was the breath of life (Genesis 6:17, 7:14-15, 22). There is no reason to believe that all the varieties of insects were on the ark because they breathe through their skin and do not have nostrils. They could have survived on floating matter or by burrowing in the mud. Some of the insects may have been on the ark in the fur of the animals or in nooks and crannies of the ark. The Bible does not teach that they had to be on board."
That goes for worms as well.
You need to brush up on your entomology, because most insects breath through a trachael system that starts on the surface of the body as openings called spriracles. The surface of the body of an arthropod is composed of a chitonous exoskeleton, that doesn't lend well to absorbing oxygen for repiration. The blood of the insect does not act as vertebrate blood does in transporting oxygen to the cells of the body. These tracheae carry oxygen to the cells.

So you believe that the many millions of species of insects survived by burrowing in the mud. Do you mean insects like the 120,000 known species of Lepidoptera? Or perhaps they all clung to floating debri, whilst being pummelled by insesant rain, only to emerge from the deluge in perfect shape to immediately start breeding and hopefully do so near their host plants. Perhaps while burrowing through the mud, the Monarch butterfly for instance, was able to dig its way to mildweed plants that were no doubt buried with it. In any event, while there are numerous insect species that do live in soil, those that do not would find it difficult to survive under such conditions not even mentioning the low oxygen, high water content and pressure of being buried in this soil covered by several thousand feet of water. Yes, I can see the complete logic and certitude of your hpostheses. This must surely be how it happened.

Lake Victoria in Africa is a young lake by geological standards, yet it contains or has contained (we have managed to kill off some species) some 500 species of cichlid fish. Now recent geological evaluation of the lake bed using coring methods has revealed the unexpected discovery that 15,000 years ago there was no lake and the area was a grassland. Genetic and molecular evaluation of these fish species reveal that they all developed from a single ancestor species that entered the lake during its early formation. These species are indigenous to Lake Vicoria and are found nowhere else. This evidence reveals an episode of one of the fastest instances of macroevolution so far recorded. Or perhaps God put them there with magic. Maybe the flood miraculously deposited 500 species freshwater fish in Lake Victoria and nowhere else on earth and they were instantly able to survive and reproduce. Perhaps they were all buried in the mud of the former grassland or arrived at the lake clinging to bushes floating on the water.

“Don't be mad at me.”

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#71443 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Why does it matter what it's called? I know it's obvious you're skeptic about intelligent design. And that it goes against the theory of evolution because we supposedly evolved from simpler life forms. If the universe evolved from the simplest matter then what caused order and intelligence of the universe, nature, and in our species?
It really isn't so much a question of being skeptical of Intelligent Design, it isn't a tenable thesis. It is just religion in a lab coat. Every piece of evidence so far presented by ID in support of a designer has been shown to be flawed and wrong. The bottom line is that it isn't science.

I would argue that life developed on the edge of chaos. Beyond that I am not qualified to discuss intelligence as it pertains to the universe or nature. Unless you are expanding the definition of intelligence to mean more than it does, the universe and nature are not intelligent in the way that humans are. Ordered and following rules, but not intelligent in the sense of conceiving and carrying out complex thought and rending it to action. Having read extensively in science fiction, I have been introduced to a lot of ideas regarding the concept of what could be alive in a speculative sense. Such things as the ideas developed in the writings of Stanislaw Lem are interesting, but they describe living things that would still be less than pan-universal in their existence.
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#71444 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
very interesting read...there's a lot of ideas that I was not aware of presented....I read somewhere that there was deep mining operation in western US, that cut into solid rock and they found flint artifacts.
The rocks that house these artifacts were dated like a million years old or older...alot of things are swept under the rug if they don't support current mainstream scientific ideology.
NImrod developed formed morter techniques to build pyramid alters abroad and those blocks may have looked like stone.
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#71446 Jan 21, 2013
The theory that Noahs descendants built cities and towers throughout the world and the people of old were an advanced civilization explains a lot. Just sayin......

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#71447 Jan 21, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
The theory that Noahs descendants built cities and towers throughout the world and the people of old were an advanced civilization explains a lot. Just sayin......
Quite the opposite, because it would lead to one important question:

Why are we so much more advanced than they ever were?
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#71448 Jan 21, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Quite the opposite, because it would lead to one important question:
Why are we so much more advanced than they ever were?
God stopped them. They may have had advanced knowledge that we do not yet know of and God caused it to be scattered and lost.

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