When your conscience misguides

Feb 13, 2011 | Posted by: Rick in Kansas | Full story: www.desmoinesregister.com

My conscience tells me that if I'm a vegetarian waitress in a meat-serving restaurant, I shouldn't have to serve the customer who orders steak.

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“TMA&CRR One Love One Marriage ”

Since: Sep 09

port orange

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#1
Feb 13, 2011
 

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i beleive it is wrong to have to serve heterosexuals so can i tell my boss i wont serve them and keep my job?
Look Ahead

Hayfield, MN

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#2
Feb 13, 2011
 

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Interesting.
So veganism, homosexuality, environmentalism, etc. are religions.
There's a lot of talk these days that selecting one's faith is a choice.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#3
Feb 14, 2011
 
Look Ahead wrote:
Interesting.
So veganism, homosexuality, environmentalism, etc. are religions.
There's a lot of talk these days that selecting one's faith is a choice.
How interesting that anyone would pretend that religion has some cache or legitimacy that *no other call to conscience* has. As the article is handily pointing out, this is 100% incorrect. The conscience that comes from one's religion is identical to the conscience that comes to anyone on ANY basis which constitutes, to their mind, a "moral imperative."

Anyone pretending "religion" has a privilege that no other imperative has is lying. What this article points out is that, frighteningly, these very exemptions can be used to REFUSE to serve a person because they're BLACK. And that's just one example.

Another example the pro-gay are using over and over is that "christianity" has become so offensive to them that they feel it is a MORAL OFFENSE which they should be exempted from having to deal with socially, in business, and in every other way you can imagine. The good old "religious" people are creating that problem, because they do not have a monopoly on these issues.

How about those people who denied a woman antibiotics -- which could kill her -- after she made a personal choice to have an abortion? I am all for denying medical care in a life-or-death situation to EVERY one of those practitioners, precisely as they did to her.

Mark my words and paste them up on your wall, the more these "religious" exemptions are screamed about, the more that others will fight for like/similar exemptions, period. If you think a gay couple running a lunch counter will serve mormons when these exemptions start to proliferate, you are in for some very nasty shocks. It needs to stop. The law is the law. You may have personal problems with others' choices but you serve them anyway. These attempts to FORCE everyone's morality on everyone else are plainly not working and are causing problems which will get very, very ugly indeed.

“RAINBOW POWER!”

Since: Oct 08

I Am What I Am.

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#4
Feb 14, 2011
 
Everybody following their own "conscience," with no laws governing how we treat each other=Anarchy.

Increasingly, it seems that's what the religious fanatics in the country want.

“Love thy neighbor!”

Since: Dec 06

Westland , MI

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#5
Feb 14, 2011
 
Wolfgang E B wrote:
Everybody following their own "conscience," with no laws governing how we treat each other=Anarchy.
Increasingly, it seems that's what the religious fanatics in the country want.
Very scary!! Good thing they are a minority in this country, or in their language, abnormal.
Look Ahead

United States

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#6
Feb 14, 2011
 

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hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
How interesting that anyone would pretend that religion has some cache or legitimacy that *no other call to conscience* has. As the article is handily pointing out, this is 100% incorrect. The conscience that comes from one's religion is identical to the conscience that comes to anyone on ANY basis which constitutes, to their mind, a "moral imperative."
Anyone pretending "religion" has a privilege that no other imperative has is lying. What this article points out is that, frighteningly, these very exemptions can be used to REFUSE to serve a person because they're BLACK. And that's just one example.
Another example the pro-gay are using over and over is that "christianity" has become so offensive to them that they feel it is a MORAL OFFENSE which they should be exempted from having to deal with socially, in business, and in every other way you can imagine. The good old "religious" people are creating that problem, because they do not have a monopoly on these issues.
How about those people who denied a woman antibiotics -- which could kill her -- after she made a personal choice to have an abortion? I am all for denying medical care in a life-or-death situation to EVERY one of those practitioners, precisely as they did to her.
Mark my words and paste them up on your wall, the more these "religious" exemptions are screamed about, the more that others will fight for like/similar exemptions, period. If you think a gay couple running a lunch counter will serve mormons when these exemptions start to proliferate, you are in for some very nasty shocks. It needs to stop. The law is the law. You may have personal problems with others' choices but you serve them anyway. These attempts to FORCE everyone's morality on everyone else are plainly not working and are causing problems which will get very, very ugly indeed.
The government may not do so, but if a private business doesn't want to associate or do business with a black, a homosexual, a Mormon, any individual, however bad it may be for business, it should be their right. For the government to force private parties to associate with others against their will is a fascistic violation of the Constitution.

If homosexuals don't want the business of Mormons, they shouldn't have to associate with them. How such a business as a restaurant would determine the religious affiliation of its clientele and elevate that concern over making a profit is a curious business-model, but freedom means the right to fail as much as it means the opportunity to succeed.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#7
Feb 15, 2011
 
Look Ahead wrote:
<quoted text>
The government may not do so, but if a private business doesn't want to associate or do business with a black, a homosexual, a Mormon, any individual, however bad it may be for business, it should be their right. For the government to force private parties to associate with others against their will is a fascistic violation of the Constitution.
If homosexuals don't want the business of Mormons, they shouldn't have to associate with them. How such a business as a restaurant would determine the religious affiliation of its clientele and elevate that concern over making a profit is a curious business-model, but freedom means the right to fail as much as it means the opportunity to succeed.
Which you have no way of knowing they'd do (fail). You *presume to know* because it's the outcome YOU would enjoy seeing.

In fact, none of the "boycotts" being fanatically called for, by either the anti-gay or the pro-gay, seem to be having much of an effect upon business. Either way. For either group.

Moreover, there would be no concern with determining these things (such as religious affiliation). What I was pointing out (and, to be fair, you might not have known or realized this) is that, at this rate, the very blatant soi-disant "right" of a religious couple to refuse gay guests at their boardinghouse, for example, is no different from a gay-owned bed-and-breakfast refusing to serve ultra-religious types -- on the same deeply held moral basis. I am speaking in hypotheticals. A sign outside the bed-and-breakfast could handily bring the whole thing to a head and we could all go to court to settle it.

I say that for a specific reason -- because we may not reach those hypothetical scenarios.

Why?

Because the COURTS are finding again and again that the "religious couple refusing gay guests" has no grounds to do so.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#8
Feb 15, 2011
 

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I apologize for missing responses or not returning to respond again (in whatever context). I am not here much anymore, and find little to respond to when I do. It is my belief that the pro-gay themselves are handling their "battles for equality" very, very badly; but they don't want to hear that, so I have largely withdrawn from assisting, except when something strikes me to respond to.

It is my belief that they have a terribly long, decades-long road to *FULL* equality ahead of them, based on their current "methods." At worst, I get vicious flak for saying this; at best, I get "well-meaning corrections" to my train of thought. I now unapologetically offer them no assistance whatsoever except as an occasional cheering section, so to speak.

I don't think I'd be nearly so bothered if I could not *delineate point for point, reason for reason and based entirely in logical principles* why I think they're going about this so very, very badly. It has actually begun giving me some mild sympathy for the ANTI-gay; to me, it's that bad.

At any rate. Thank you for your response.
Buford T Justice

United States

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#9
Feb 15, 2011
 

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hi hi wrote:
I apologize for missing responses or not returning to respond again (in whatever context). I am not here much anymore, and find little to respond to when I do. It is my belief that the pro-gay themselves are handling their "battles for equality" very, very badly; but they don't want to hear that, so I have largely withdrawn from assisting, except when something strikes me to respond to.
It is my belief that they have a terribly long, decades-long road to *FULL* equality ahead of them, based on their current "methods." At worst, I get vicious flak for saying this; at best, I get "well-meaning corrections" to my train of thought. I now unapologetically offer them no assistance whatsoever except as an occasional cheering section, so to speak.
I don't think I'd be nearly so bothered if I could not *delineate point for point, reason for reason and based entirely in logical principles* why I think they're going about this so very, very badly. It has actually begun giving me some mild sympathy for the ANTI-gay; to me, it's that bad.
At any rate. Thank you for your response.
You're gay, get over it. You're gayer than the two guys in the woods in Deliverance.

READ STRUNK AND WHITE AND LEARN HOW TO WRITE
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#10
Feb 17, 2011
 

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Buford T Justice wrote:
<quoted text>
You're gay, get over it. You're gayer than the two guys in the woods in Deliverance.
READ STRUNK AND WHITE AND LEARN HOW TO WRITE
This type of nonsense is "internet trolling," no more, no less.

You know that I am a complete stranger, yet you attempt to pretend you "know about" me.

You pretend to have *the intelligence, education and acumen* to be able to claim that I supposedly "cannot write."

Notice I didn't fall for either?

Think about it: This makes you look weak. Not because I'm "competing" with you, but because you resorted to insults I saw through in milliseconds. You look weak, spineless, and damaged. Especially damaged. If you weren't, you wouldn't be sufficiently threatened to lie about me.

THEY'LL insult you. I much prefer to leave you with the knowledge that you're damaged, since -- as regards the collective of our "allegations" against each other -- mine are provable, based on your text here ... and yours aren't.

If you're smart, you won't let me make you look stupid and/or uneducated a second time. Be a champ and walk away.
Buford T Justice

United States

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#11
Feb 17, 2011
 

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hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
This type of nonsense is "internet trolling," no more, no less.
You know that I am a complete stranger, yet you attempt to pretend you "know about" me.
You pretend to have *the intelligence, education and acumen* to be able to claim that I supposedly "cannot write."
Notice I didn't fall for either?
Think about it: This makes you look weak. Not because I'm "competing" with you, but because you resorted to insults I saw through in milliseconds. You look weak, spineless, and damaged. Especially damaged. If you weren't, you wouldn't be sufficiently threatened to lie about me.
THEY'LL insult you. I much prefer to leave you with the knowledge that you're damaged, since -- as regards the collective of our "allegations" against each other -- mine are provable, based on your text here ... and yours aren't.
If you're smart, you won't let me make you look stupid and/or uneducated a second time. Be a champ and walk away.
You used to write these insane posts under a different name.

CUT TO THE CHASE YOU ARE A GAY MAN
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#12
Feb 18, 2011
 
Buford T Justice wrote:
<quoted text>
You used to write these insane posts under a different name.
CUT TO THE CHASE YOU ARE A GAY MAN
Again, you are *deliberately* using homosexuality as an insult and then attempting to "peg" someone via that insult, period.

I know you know this because, once I've said that and you persist,*you are by definition trolling the thread*.

We alllll seem to know "so much" about each other's lives and have allllll sorts of "proof" -- none of which would stand up in a court of law for a moment.

You hope to "cow" of "bulldoze" me into remaining silent.

OBVIOUSLY that's not working.

I know you know it won't work. We could sit here for months and I would never stop getting "in your face" about your damage, never.

But if you know "who I am" ... then you knew all of this.

Why in god's name would you reply, allowing me to call to public attention your psychological damage here, publicly, for all to see?

Every reply *proves my point further*. But you knew that.

That's what makes me think you're savagely anti-gay. That's how they behave,*exactly* how. They forget everything else but their obsessive hatred and their conviction *that everyone on god's green earth who supports gay rights is gay*. You're behaving *exactly* as they do. I take pleasure in pointing that out publicly.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#13
Feb 18, 2011
 
Notice that we're not discussing any issue. This is how you can tell it's one of the endless, ubiquitous "pro-/anti-gay-rights " fights everywhere. Because we're not discussing anything.

This "conversation" has devolved into name-calling and personal attacks. Nothing more, nothing less.

You add *nothing* to the discussion and you add *nothing* to this world or its good. You attack out of fear and prejudice.

If you had the slightest goddamn idea, if it was borne in upon your "brain" in the slightest fashion how weak, damaged and spineless that makes you look,*you would delete your presence on topix and wouldn't even dare to return*. Obviously, you are too obsessed with your own misery and fear to see the difference.

I can tell because, when I point it out,

you avoid the issue.

Yeah, I wasn't born yesterday. Pity I've got you nailed, isn't it.

You're the one damaged, not me. I think it's exceptionally cruel to take pleasure in that -- and I think you've earned it, champ.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#14
Feb 18, 2011
 
I came back here because I just showed this thread to an acquaintance who pointed out that, by endlessly arguing with YOU, I will be committing myself again to the same thing I have decided is currently not worth it -- because of the actions of the PRO-GAY, not the anti-gay.

So I will leave the above comment as my last, and it will stand in full force and effect *no matter what you can physically strive to place in this thread under any circumstances*, the end. If you "know who I am," then you know I wouldn't budge if we argued for 500 more posts. I simply do not budge one millimeter.

I think this kind of stubborn refusal to be cowed by ANYTHING WHATSOEVER is so important, and I do not see the pro-gay engaging in it. I have theories (and have discussed them here) as to why. I think it's so important to put people like you in your place because nothing will budge you but being shaken, by pure exhaustion and being attacked as you attack, out of your complacency.

They do not see the use in this. That's why they're losing the gay marriage battles, unfortunately.

At any rate, I have made myself clear. I did not fall for your non-issues and I will not be budged from my contentions against you, no matter how much they are obviously upsetting you. I don't care how you feel, and you don't wanna know just *how much* I don't care how you feel. What's sad is that THEY will fall for your crap and continue to flail against you rather than, as I have done, put you in the position of flailing like a child and a dumbass because you *have* no point to make, since your humanity appears literally -- literally, and proximately -- actually, honestly, genuinely worthless, in the true dictionary sense of the word.
Buford T Justice

United States

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#15
Feb 18, 2011
 

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hi hi wrote:
I came back here because I just showed this thread to an acquaintance who pointed out that, by endlessly arguing with YOU, I will be committing myself again to the same thing I have decided is currently not worth it -- because of the actions of the PRO-GAY, not the anti-gay.
So I will leave the above comment as my last, and it will stand in full force and effect *no matter what you can physically strive to place in this thread under any circumstances*, the end. If you "know who I am," then you know I wouldn't budge if we argued for 500 more posts. I simply do not budge one millimeter.
I think this kind of stubborn refusal to be cowed by ANYTHING WHATSOEVER is so important, and I do not see the pro-gay engaging in it. I have theories (and have discussed them here) as to why. I think it's so important to put people like you in your place because nothing will budge you but being shaken, by pure exhaustion and being attacked as you attack, out of your complacency.
They do not see the use in this. That's why they're losing the gay marriage battles, unfortunately.
At any rate, I have made myself clear. I did not fall for your non-issues and I will not be budged from my contentions against you, no matter how much they are obviously upsetting you. I don't care how you feel, and you don't wanna know just *how much* I don't care how you feel. What's sad is that THEY will fall for your crap and continue to flail against you rather than, as I have done, put you in the position of flailing like a child and a dumbass because you *have* no point to make, since your humanity appears literally -- literally, and proximately -- actually, honestly, genuinely worthless, in the true dictionary sense of the word.
You are gayer than the Broadway show Rent or I Love You You're Perfect Now Change

Go to Broadway--you are gay

READ STRUNK AND WHITE AND LEARN HOW TO POST
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#16
Feb 19, 2011
 
See?

You repeat

EXACTLY

what you said last time.

That's what a troll does.

You pretend to be a "doctor" who can identify a stranger's orientation -- a stranger! Go tell the AMA about your abilities. I utterly dare you.

You pretend to have *any* authority as a writer -- a complete stranger who has *nothing* invested in my well-being.

I'm returning the favor by telling everyone you're psychologically damaged. I like pointing it out because *the fact that you keep coming back tells the whole story*.

You're too damaged *to look out for your own well-being*. I find that funny.

Does that hurt? Suck it up, champ. You're the one who can't keep your shit together.

Don't come crying about it to me. Your pain has no meaning here.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#17
Feb 19, 2011
 
I just read my own post and realize for the first time why four people on this site have told me my lack of compassion for people like you is scary.

“RAINBOW POWER!”

Since: Oct 08

I Am What I Am.

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#19
Feb 20, 2011
 
hi hi wrote:
They do not see the use in this. That's why they're losing the gay marriage battles, unfortunately.
Losing? LOL! Talk about clueless...

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