LDS Church, other religious groups respond to Prop 8 ruling

Feb 8, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Deseret News

Shortly after the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals issued its ruling that CaliforniaA's Proposition 8 banning same-sex marriage is unconstitutional , The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a response.

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Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#1 Feb 8, 2012
When will they regret being bigots?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#2 Feb 9, 2012
NoMo wrote:
When will they regret being bigots?
When members get fed up enough with it to start leaving over it.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#3 Feb 21, 2013
A lot of people do not understand how our government works in protecting the rights of a minority.

This is why prop 8 was struck down by the Supreme Court, it violates basic human rights.

You could say that the Mormon church orchestrated the tyranny of the majority with their disinformation campaign in violation of the constitution here in California.

here is an interesting article on democracy and the problem with tyranny of the majority:

"Minority Rights I: Individual Rights vs. Majority Tyranny

Democracy therefore requires minority rights equally as it does majority rule. Indeed, as democracy is conceived today, the minority's rights must be protected no matter how singular or alienated that minority is from the majority society; otherwise, the majority's rights lose their meaning. In the United States, basic individual liberties are protected through the Bill of Rights, which were drafted by James Madison and adopted in the form of the first 10 amendments to the Constitution. These enumerate the rights that may not be violated by the government, safeguarding—in theory, at least—the rights of any minority against majority tyranny. Today, these rights are considered the essential element of any liberal democracy.

The British political philosopher John Stuart Mill took this principle further. In his essay On Liberty he wrote, "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will is to prevent harm to others." Mill's "no harm principle" aims to prevent government from becoming a vehicle for the "tyranny of the majority," which he viewed as not just a political but also a social tyranny that stifled minority voices and imposed a regimentation of thought and values. Mill's views became the basis for much of liberal political philosophy since, whether it is free market or economic liberalism or social liberalism."

from:

http://www.democracyweb.org/majority/principl...

A lot of churches subvert the constitution of The United States as a tyrannical majority with block voting. Corrupt politicians cater to this. It keeps them in power and keeps archaic forms of persecution of minorities alive and well plus other negatives such as legislating primitive beliefs into law governing education, scientific research, and other human rights.

We need to take back our country from fundamentalists that want to destroy democracy and throw us back into the dark ages.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#4 Feb 22, 2013
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
You could say that the Mormon church orchestrated the tyranny of the majority with their disinformation campaign in violation of the constitution here in California.
So Mormons, the hated and disrespected religion of America not even considered to be a Christian religion, orchestrated the tyranny of the majority to vote against prop 8?
How unreal will you kneel to be?
...
70% of African Americans backed Prop. 8, exit poll finds
A lot of Obama/Yes-on-8 voters? The Associated Press exit polls show that African Americans and Latinos backed Proposition 8 in good numbers. Details here from AP:

California's black and Latino voters, who turned out in droves for Barack Obama, also provided key support in favor of the state's same-sex marriage ban. Seven in 10 black voters backed a successful ballot measure to overturn the California Supreme Court's May decision allowing same-sex marriage, according to exit polls for The Associated Press.

More than half of Latino voters supported Proposition 8 (meaning half the Latino voters voted against Prop 8, while whites were split.

Of the seven in 10 voters who described themselves as Christian, two-thirds backed the initiative. Married voters and voters with children strongly supported Proposition 8. Unmarried voters were heavily opposed.
...
You claim Mormons aren't Christians. So logically they can't be in the above numbers.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#5 Feb 23, 2013
NoMo wrote:
When will they regret being bigots?
Not until they wake up to what they are doing.

Lying for the Lord and calling themselves Christian while putting down those who object to their murderous theology kind of broadcasts their hate for everyone who opposes their insanity.

And than the ad hominem attacks of the theocratic warriors and their twisting of words and calling other people liars out of one side of their mouth while lying for the lord at the same time out of the other side seems to indicate they have a bit of a ways to go before they can actually even realize they are bigots!

Once they do the shame should kick in . And than perhaps the recognition of the absurdity of defending what they are defending will kick in.
doofy

Warrenton, VA

#6 Feb 23, 2013
Wow LSD in church, I think I'll start goin again.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#7 Feb 23, 2013
here are a few links to sites detailing the Mormon involvement in overriding the will of the people with their dishonest tactics:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/whe...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story...

The theocratic warriors on here defending the church will ridicule the concept of tyranny of the majority as they lash out with ad hominem attacks at those of us determined to expose their attempts to take away rights of citizens.

This is really ironic in that not too long ago the homophobes with the most cash to throw at eroding human rights in the prop h(8) fiasco once complained about how they were treated by the majority who chased them out of the state of Missouri for destroying a printing press, among other things!

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#8 Feb 23, 2013
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
here are a few links to sites detailing the Mormon involvement in overriding the will of the people with their dishonest tactics:
This is really ironic in that not too long ago the homophobes with the most cash to throw at eroding human rights in the prop h(8) fiasco once complained about how they were treated by the majority who chased them out of the state of Missouri for destroying a printing press, among other things!
You loser...lol...people voted their conscious you pompous ignoramus and you call that over riding the will of the people...lol...to fricking funny!. The will of the people VOTED FOR PROP 8! The will of the people have been against same sex marriage for centuries and against same sex marriage in Cali before the religious groups ever got involved. The will of the people have voted against same sex marriage on every occasion except one as of to date.
lol...and proof you read so very little about Mormon history except to grab some negative item someone else has written about...the printing press was destroyed in Illinois, not Missouri!

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#9 Feb 25, 2013
We can see from the above post that the Later Day Saints do not recognize the validity of our constitutional republic and the importance of dealing with the tyranny of the majority.

They have no reasonable reason to reject the Constitution of the United States in their preference for a theodemocracy, but they do have an unreasonable one. They are using the tyranny of the majority as a tool to force their agenda on the people of the United States.

Prop h(8) is just the beginning!

We all need to wake up to the dangers of fundamentalist blood bath based religions such as the Church of Later Day Saints that falsely call themselves Christian.

Here is an interesting article pointing out the practice of Blood atonement and how it is carried out by the example of the Mountain Meadows Massacre:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.ht...

"If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats." Brigham Young

"The Mountain Meadows Massacre stands without a parallel amongst the crimes that stain the pages of American history. It was a crime committed without cause or justification of any kind to relieve it of its fearful character... When nearly exhausted from fatigue and thirst,[the men of the caravan] were approached by white men, with a flag of truce, and induced to surrender their arms, under the most solemn promises of protection. They were then murdered in cold blood." William Bishop, Attorney to John D. Lee

This slaughter of innocents at Mountain Meadows was the most despicable act of treachery committed on US soil and is still denied by the Later Day Saints to this day!

We all need to get informed and get involved in protecting our freedoms in the United States from groups like the Mormons who sneer at our form of government with it's checks and balances assuring equal rights for all of us, something that dramatically conflicts with the agenda this patriarchal hierarchical Church!

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#10 Feb 25, 2013
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
We can see from the above post that the Later Day Saints do not recognize the validity of our constitutional republic and the importance of dealing with the tyranny of the majority.
They have no reasonable reason to reject the Constitution of the United States in their preference for a theodemocracy, but they do have an unreasonable one. They are using the tyranny of the majority as a tool to force their agenda on the people of the United States.
Prop h(8) is just the beginning!
We all need to wake up to the dangers of fundamentalist blood bath based religions such as the Church of Later Day Saints that falsely call themselves Christian.
Here is an interesting article pointing out the practice of Blood atonement and how it is carried out by the example of the Mountain Meadows Massacre:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.ht...
"If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats." Brigham Young
"The Mountain Meadows Massacre stands without a parallel amongst the crimes that stain the pages of American history. It was a crime committed without cause or justification of any kind to relieve it of its fearful character... When nearly exhausted from fatigue and thirst,[the men of the caravan] were approached by white men, with a flag of truce, and induced to surrender their arms, under the most solemn promises of protection. They were then murdered in cold blood." William Bishop, Attorney to John D. Lee
This slaughter of innocents at Mountain Meadows was the most despicable act of treachery committed on US soil and is still denied by the Later Day Saints to this day!
We all need to get informed and get involved in protecting our freedoms in the United States from groups like the Mormons who sneer at our form of government with it's checks and balances assuring equal rights for all of us, something that dramatically conflicts with the agenda this patriarchal hierarchical Church!
lol...and all that ranting came from a guy suffering paranoid delusions, really truly believing that one of the most detested religions in America is going to soon control America! A Mormon America that will have everyone slashing every one else's throats! And he thinks other people are a lost cause to their theistic beliefs? He really believes that the Mormons are going to take over the US government and do it very soon! Than the Mormons will erect a Mormon army that is going to fulfil the doctrine of blood atonement which has to take place by the slashing open of a throat by a knife.
He, Smurf, wants all of America to beware of this Mormon take over where he claims as they did with a massacre, all non-Mormons after the take over will be lined up and will have their throats all slit to atone for their sins and the sins of their parents!
And Smurf really believes this will happen! And soon!
Some one call for a shrink please and send him to Smurf if you know where he lives, the dude really needs professional help...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#11 Feb 25, 2013
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Here is an interesting article pointing out the practice of Blood atonement and how it is carried out by the example of the Mountain Meadows Massacre:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.ht...
"If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats." Brigham Young
...and you prove your own statement a statement of a liar. You are your own liar every time you purposefully post wrong and or inaccurate information.
Let me explain.
You gave earlier references that revealed blood atonement HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT BY THE SLITTING OF A THROAT. Let me say that again for you, it was your information that I confirmed was accurate of what Young declared of how blood atonement HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT for the act to be called blood atonement. The act of blood atonement HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT BY THE SLITTING OPEN OF A PERSONS THROAT.
From your link... "Brevet Jamor J.H. Carleton noted in his investigation of the tragedy "that about one third of the skulls were shot through with bullets and about one third seem to be broken with stones." 4
What does that mean? That statement means 2/3rds of 120 settlers never had their throat slit. Two thirds of 120 is 80. That leaves 40 settlers that died by gun shot, arrow, Tommy hawk and knife. That insinuates very few at most had their actual throat cut. You don't shoot or stone to death a person that has their throat cut and has died. That's a waste of ammo and time any soldier will tell you.
Since there is no evidence of throat slashing of at least half of these settlers, that means there is no evidence that the massacre was done for the purpose of the blood atonement doctrine.
Your own information proves Young said and insinuated, being shot, stabbed, stoned, etc had nothing to do with the act of blood atonement UNLESS a person had THEIR THROAT SLASHED OPEN.
And all of that is from your links you have given me. You have proven beyond a doubt that the actual rite/practice of blood atonement was never applied to those settlers.
What you have unknowingly proved is that these settlers were horrifically murdered, nothing more, nothing less. Nice job Smurf :)

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#12 Feb 25, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>...and you prove your own statement a statement of a liar. You are your own liar every time you purposefully post wrong and or inaccurate information.
Let me explain.
You gave earlier references that revealed blood atonement HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT BY THE SLITTING OF A THROAT. Let me say that again for you, it was your information that I confirmed was accurate of what Young declared of how blood atonement HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT for the act to be called blood atonement. The act of blood atonement HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT BY THE SLITTING OPEN OF A PERSONS THROAT.
From your link... "Brevet Jamor J.H. Carleton noted in his investigation of the tragedy "that about one third of the skulls were shot through with bullets and about one third seem to be broken with stones." 4
What does that mean? That statement means 2/3rds of 120 settlers never had their throat slit. Two thirds of 120 is 80. That leaves 40 settlers that died by gun shot, arrow, Tommy hawk and knife. That insinuates very few at most had their actual throat cut. You don't shoot or stone to death a person that has their throat cut and has died. That's a waste of ammo and time any soldier will tell you.
Since there is no evidence of throat slashing of at least half of these settlers, that means there is no evidence that the massacre was done for the purpose of the blood atonement doctrine.
Your own information proves Young said and insinuated, being shot, stabbed, stoned, etc had nothing to do with the act of blood atonement UNLESS a person had THEIR THROAT SLASHED OPEN.
And all of that is from your links you have given me. You have proven beyond a doubt that the actual rite/practice of blood atonement was never applied to those settlers.
What you have unknowingly proved is that these settlers were horrifically murdered, nothing more, nothing less. Nice job Smurf :)
Why was throat slashing part of temple rituals until recently? Why did they remove throat slashing and private parts groping from temple ceremonies??

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#13 Feb 25, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
Why was throat slashing part of temple rituals until recently? Why did they remove throat slashing and private parts groping from temple ceremonies??
I like it when you converse civilly, just saying :)

I have no idea. I doubt a temple going Mormon could give you an adequate reason. It was a ritual that I am guessing had lost it's importance with time.
When Smith was alive, members were apostatizing and revealing what was going on in church and in the temple in Navoo. I don't know how to research it, but I would make an educated guess the throat slashing symbolic gesture happened with Young. I could be wrong.
I think Smith established temple rituals when alive. But with his death and Young being there and through the church breaking into pieces and he taking leadership to Utah, with all that happened with apostates revealing secrets, after the temple was built or before it in the SL valley, I believe Young established the throat slit as a way to warn/threaten members to not reveal church rituals on threat of death.
With the church leaving it's persecuted times and times of 18th to early 19th century western mayhem living times, certain rituals much later were quit. The leaders now feel if you're going to reveal temple rituals, it's between that person and God, not the church and that person.
That's my explanation correct or incorrect.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#14 Feb 25, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>I like it when you converse civilly, just saying :)

I have no idea. I doubt a temple going Mormon could give you an adequate reason. It was a ritual that I am guessing had lost it's importance with time.
When Smith was alive, members were apostatizing and revealing what was going on in church and in the temple in Navoo. I don't know how to research it, but I would make an educated guess the throat slashing symbolic gesture happened with Young. I could be wrong.
I think Smith established temple rituals when alive. But with his death and Young being there and through the church breaking into pieces and he taking leadership to Utah, with all that happened with apostates revealing secrets, after the temple was built or before it in the SL valley, I believe Young established the throat slit as a way to warn/threaten members to not reveal church rituals on threat of death.
With the church leaving it's persecuted times and times of 18th to early 19th century western mayhem living times, certain rituals much later were quit. The leaders now feel if you're going to reveal temple rituals, it's between that person and God, not the church and that person.
That's my explanation correct or incorrect.
A temple going Mormon won't answer me because they are forbidden from talking about the mind numbing blandness those ceremonies have become. Satan and the bouncer in the front are the most interesting parts....but not too long ago, lol..they had to slit their throats and get groped.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#15 Feb 26, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
A temple going Mormon won't answer me because they are forbidden from talking about the mind numbing blandness those ceremonies have become. Satan and the bouncer in the front are the most interesting parts....but not too long ago, lol..they had to slit their throats and get groped.
When considering issues like this,(even if you disbelieve) you have to pretend for the benefit of the argument that this is a church of God.
From that perspective you make your own theories of the issue of how true or false the claims/actions are.
For example: If a Jewish Sadducee or Pharisee were to walk out into a crowded street in Jerusalem and began to tell Jews and non-Jews all the things kept secret from others, how do you think other Sadducee's or Pharisee's would react? Before you answer, consider the fact that just for quitting his priesthood and converting to Jesus's sect, Sadducee's and Pharisee's put a death warrant out on him. So consider what they would have done if an active or ex priest began revealing their secrets to any one who would listen.
Point being is secret things are meant to be secret.
In the 18th century if a man looked at your wife wrong you could legally beat the *hit out of him and call him out and shoot him in the street. You could legally shoot someone for cheating at cards.
You could kill a person for stealing your horse. Things were looked at differently in the 18th century than how we see those things when Young took over the church from Smith. Young made laws and rules according to how society dished out justice in the 18th century.
So we can cry foul all we want of how they lived and thought and acted. That was an age when white men in a military could murder native children, women and men from young to old. It was a time when owning another human was an accepted practice from the north to the south.
I just think it's a good thing to remember the time era from whence a practice began to when it was stopped. It explains a lot about that practice be it wrong or right.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#16 Feb 26, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
When considering issues like this,(even if you disbelieve) you have to pretend for the benefit of the argument that this is a church of God.
From that perspective you make your own theories of the issue of how true or false the claims/actions are.
For example: If a Jewish Sadducee or Pharisee were to walk out into a crowded street in Jerusalem and began to tell Jews and non-Jews all the things kept secret from others, how do you think other Sadducee's or Pharisee's would react? Before you answer, consider the fact that just for quitting his priesthood and converting to Jesus's sect, Sadducee's and Pharisee's put a death warrant out on him. So consider what they would have done if an active or ex priest began revealing their secrets to any one who would listen.
Point being is secret things are meant to be secret.
In the 18th century if a man looked at your wife wrong you could legally beat the *hit out of him and call him out and shoot him in the street. You could legally shoot someone for cheating at cards.
You could kill a person for stealing your horse. Things were looked at differently in the 18th century than how we see those things when Young took over the church from Smith. Young made laws and rules according to how society dished out justice in the 18th century.
So we can cry foul all we want of how they lived and thought and acted. That was an age when white men in a military could murder native children, women and men from young to old. It was a time when owning another human was an accepted practice from the north to the south.
I just think it's a good thing to remember the time era from whence a practice began to when it was stopped. It explains a lot about that practice be it wrong or right.
It's "sacred" not secret..

http://m.youtube.com/watch...

So, you say temple ceremonies become less creepy as society progresses.. LOL

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#17 Feb 26, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
It's "sacred" not secret..
http://m.youtube.com/watch...
So, you say temple ceremonies become less creepy as society progresses.. LOL
You just might agree if you ever have a chance to read of the much older rites practised by Young 150 years ago.
And sacred things are usually kept secret from others that would profane them :)

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#18 Feb 26, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>You just might agree if you ever have a chance to read of the much older rites practised by Young 150 years ago.
And sacred things are usually kept secret from others that would profane them :)
Agree? U are missing the point again. The pyramid cult changes it's most sacred activities according to cultural trends. That's the opposite of sacred.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#19 Feb 28, 2013
Here is some encouraging news for those who respect the protection the constitution gives minorities against the tyranny of the majority:

http://www.sfgate.com/lgbt/article/White-Hous...

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#20 Feb 28, 2013
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Here is some encouraging news for those who respect the protection the constitution gives minorities against the tyranny of the majority:
http://www.sfgate.com/lgbt/article/White-Hous...
It will be federal one day...and the bigots can go hide in their closets with the Klan.

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