Little League not Enforcing Rule about Playing in antother tourney

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Disenchanted Coach

Albany, NY

#1 Jul 27, 2007
Ok...so here is the situation. We win our district at the 11 year old level. As i am researching our potential opponents i discover that the neighboring District has their 11 year old team that won the district playing in their 12 year old district tournament to "stay sharp". This is strictly forbidden as is practicing in uniform and practicing against other leagues.

These are the reigning state champions with the same manager - they won their district, section and state tournaments. I find it hard to believe that the coach had not read the 20 pages of rules.

When the protest went to little league in Williamsport they turned it down.

Seems to me that little league allowing a powerhouse to cheat and "hone their skills" against the rules is plain wrong. As far as it not being fair to the kids how about fair is it to all of the kids who are eliminated by a team that didn't play by the rules??

Any thoughts??
Brad Mac

Chicopee, MA

#2 Jul 27, 2007
Coach,

This does not sound right, can you elaborate?

I am guessing this is the Little League 10/11 year old division tournament? Affidavits etc...

Your opposition is also in the same division AND?? the 12 year old Division of All Stars?

Or were they playing together in a District Tournament of Champions?
ct-dad

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#3 Jul 27, 2007
First, I live in Illinois, so I have no dog in this one. That being said, a couple of questions arise.

How did you determine that East Greenbush had it's 11 year old team playing in the 12 year old tournament? A quick look at the district web site indicates that they won the 11 year old title in a 2 game set on July 7 and 8. The 12 year old also played on those dates. All of the games were at different sites. I find it hard to believe that this group of kids played 4 games in 2 days at 4 different sites.

Now I did note that that district runs an 11-12 year old "A" tournament and an 11-12 year old "B" tournament; I assume these are run so that more kids get to experience some extra games against outside competition (we have several in our area that take in so-called B level teams and team eliminated early in the international tournament). East Greenbush had two teams scheduled in the B tournament. Perhaps you are confusing them?

My advice, beat them on the field.
EG - Dad

United States

#4 Jul 29, 2007
Delmar Coach -- Do I sense a bit of sour grapes from a previous loss??

GET THE FACTS - Call Williamsport -- Before calling a group of kids cheaters.

Maybe spend a bit more time with the kids and a bit less complaing to the world on the internet a nd maybe you can beat them!!!
EG- Mom

Albany, NY

#5 Jul 30, 2007
Delmar Coach
I find it funny you call them a powerhouse and totally disrespectful that you accuse them of cheating when you don't know the facts. Let's not bash innocent, hard working, talented kids that gave up half their summer for their passion of baseball.

Maybe if you put more effort into coaching and less into complaining you may face them in a tournament!! I'll look forward to reading your comments after the game.
Another EG Dad

New Lebanon, NY

#6 Jul 30, 2007
I find it amazing that an "adult" accuses a team of 11 year old kids of cheating. I suggest you get all of the facts before you accuse a team and or its' coaches of cheating. Do you think Little League headquarters would have denied a valid protest. In addition to that do you think they would allow a team that cheated and gained an unfair advantage to continue in that tournament? As far as the "powerhouse" comment, maybe we just work harder and care more. I think those are the qualities that are encouraged by Little League. I will have to check those 20 pages of rules to see where whining is encouraged.

“Amateur Sports Fanatic”

Since: Jul 07

White Plains, NY

#7 Jul 31, 2007
I saw East Greenbush's program play in the 12 year old state final four a couple years ago out on Long Island. They were a class act and class program all the way.

We are from Westchester and we were hoping they'd beat the pants off of Merrick, LI in that final because Merrick was a bunch of snooty showboating losers.

There is no way East Greenbush is cheating. There is no way LL wouldn't uphold a rule that they hold most sacred.

You're a bum. Thank you.

:-)
RGM DAD

Brooklyn, NY

#8 Jul 31, 2007
my sons team played the EG team for the state championship 10 year old title last year and they beat us. They seemed like a good group of boys that worked hard and deserved to win. They out played our team on the field that day. They were very respectful and showed great sportsmanship players, coaches amd parents. I hope this year we get another chance to play them for the title. I believe before you accuse anybody of cheating you have to have the facts straight. Well good luck to you and hope to see you in the finals
Double R

Walla Walla, WA

#9 Aug 1, 2007
Disenchanted Coach wrote:
Ok...so here is the situation. We win our district at the 11 year old level. As i am researching our potential opponents i discover that the neighboring District has their 11 year old team that won the district playing in their 12 year old district tournament to "stay sharp". This is strictly forbidden as is practicing in uniform and practicing against other leagues.
These are the reigning state champions with the same manager - they won their district, section and state tournaments. I find it hard to believe that the coach had not read the 20 pages of rules.
When the protest went to little league in Williamsport they turned it down.
Seems to me that little league allowing a powerhouse to cheat and "hone their skills" against the rules is plain wrong. As far as it not being fair to the kids how about fair is it to all of the kids who are eliminated by a team that didn't play by the rules??
Any thoughts??
It was a stupid rule to start It's just little league being controlling.
Ripkenfan

Upper Black Eddy, PA

#10 Aug 1, 2007
If you don't like the way that Little League rules control your every move, why not join the Cal Ripken leagues. Here in New Jersey, Cal Ripken leagues are popping up like weeds. They also have a national tournament that is hels at the Ripken Complex in Aberdeen, Maryland.

“Amateur Sports Fanatic”

Since: Jul 07

White Plains, NY

#11 Aug 1, 2007
Little League's rule is there to protect the players. It's also there to protect the tournament.

Teams were forfeiting games because players would have conflicts and play other games and the LL tournament would look like a fiasco.

As for Cal Ripken, don't make me laugh. Any town that join Cal Ripken is just sick of getting their butts kicked in LL and they move to an easier bracket.
Ripkenfan

Upper Black Eddy, PA

#12 Aug 1, 2007
Actually not. Some of the best programs in New Jersey are making the move because of the control that LL wants to have over anyone associated with them. Two years ago, we had a team lose a game because of a protest by the losing manager. The protest was because the winning manager was wearing Adidas sweatpants while coaching third base. Tell me what those sweatpants did that gave the winning team an advantage? I have been to both the LL world Series (5 times) and the Ripken World Series.(twice) I will say, without a doubt, the Ripken Series is THE best run tournament in the world, and will only get better in the years to come as more and more towns become frustrated with LL baseball.

“Amateur Sports Fanatic”

Since: Jul 07

White Plains, NY

#13 Aug 1, 2007
Okie Dokie. No sense in talking to you about this. You're crazy though.

Winning 4 games to win a state title is ridiculous though.

Bryant Arkansas....sick of losing in LL, move to Cal Ripken....wow they make the CRWS
Calif LL President

United States

#14 Aug 1, 2007
Coach if all is correct with your statement then they should be out of the tournament. It seems as if theres more to this then you state.Bottom line your mistake is to call the kids cheaters. They are there to play and enjoy. Look at the adults that's where the problem LIES.

“Amateur Sports Fanatic”

Since: Jul 07

White Plains, NY

#15 Aug 1, 2007
Its not correct. He's a sore loser.
Disenchanted Coach

Albany, NY

#16 Aug 2, 2007
It is all correct and the fact they played in a tournament against the rules to stay sharp was acknowledged by little league, the district and the league.

They won their district on July 8 or so then in between the district and sectionals (which started 7/26) they played in their District's 11-12 round robin tournament to "stay sharp and hone their skills". When we brought it to little league's attention it was acknowledged by both the team and the district that they did indeed play in another tournament, in uniform, against another league. All 3 of these are rules violations. Little League allowed the district admin to accept the blame for allowing them to play. So there is no dispute as to whether or not they did break the rules,.. simply a matter of little league allowing them to do so.

There is no mention on their website any more because all references were removed and the link to the schedule that showed them playing was removed but there were references on their site, the district site and on the schedule
as well as results and a schedule on the site of one of the other leagues shoiwng they played.

Nowhere did i call the kids cheaters..they had nothing to do with it.
Brad Mac

Chicopee, MA

#17 Aug 2, 2007
Disenchanted,

You really are coming across as a whiner and if you knew the first thing about Little League you would not be griping.

Here is the rule you are whining about:

Participation In Other Programs:
A player may participate in other youth baseball programs prior to the first scheduled game involving that playerís team. Once play begins for a tournament team, players named on that teamís tournament affidavit may not participate in any other youth baseball program until that team is eliminated from tournament play.

Now, if you follow Little League you would know that this rule was introduced a few years back as LL teams were having problems losing players to travel ball during the tournament. In some instances teams were forfeiting because they could not field their team for a specific game due to conflicts. The rule is an "anti-travel rule" that is all there is to it.

In this case the entire team participated in a Little League District Tournament. This is an entirely different situation. These District Tournaments happen all over the country. I know of some very large cities that have 3 or 4 separate Little leagues and they host these same events.

In these instances the leagues apply for a waiver to get Little leagues permission to play and then they participate. The reason the waiver is granted is because Little league does not find this type of tournament to be problematic with their (anti-travel) ruling.

You quote "stay sharp and hone their skills" which is your opinion. All others see this as a non-issue. There are hundreds of ways to "stay sharp and hone their skills" and practices are always much more focused than games.

Give the kids their due and get over it. Do you really feel that playing in a District Tournament is the reason your (kids) team lost? No, they were simply beat and you are reaching for excuses like cheating to justify that the best team won on that particular day.

I feel extremely sorry for your kid(s) as they will grow up with your view point on life that if you lose you need to find some excuse to fall back on.

If you do not believe my word, take this to a known Little League forum ( www.eteamz.com/baseball/boards )and get feedback from experts.

I doubt it will matter as you seem content to blame the loss on something other than the better team won that particular game.
Disenchanted Coach

Albany, NY

#18 Aug 2, 2007
Sorry if i came off as a whiner and just to be clear we did not play each other this year. My point of all of this really has nothing to do with how or why the rule ended up being broken. In rereading my original post i obviously need to apologize also for jumping to the conclusion that it may have been intentional. I am sorry.

What i was really trying to accomplish was to get some feedback on the enforcement of rules violations. In our district at the 12 year old level there was a team from another league that was up by 6 or 7 runs with 1 out in the last inning and an ineligible pitcher threw a pitch and that team lost the protest and was eliminated.

I also read the post on here about the Pittsford team.

Anyway - sorry again.

is to question why little league chose not to enforce this rule. In one of the tournamenother leagues in of our other age bracket
Disenchanted Coach

Albany, NY

#19 Aug 2, 2007
One last thought

I wholeheartedly agree that rule doesn't make sense and that a team should be able to play practice games.

Funny / Sad thing with all of this is i have always been a "let the kids play" guy and never saw myself getting caught up in all of this. Good example for the kids that adults make mistakes too!!
Matt

AOL

#20 Aug 2, 2007
The 11 and 12 year tournament that they played in was probably a "District Special Games" tournament. They are usually run at a district level only. They do not go outside of the district win or lose. They are usually a tournament designed for the children who either did not make the 12 year old ALL STAR team that can advance to a World Series level or are too young to play in it.

Our district holds a 9 year old pitching machine, a 10 year old minor, a 10 year old major, and an 11 and 12 year old major tournament. The rules for these tournaments are set by the District Administrator with input from the presidents of the participating leagues. They only follow Little League Internationals rules for special game tournaments. Eligibilty is really up to the DA and the participating leagues if I remember correctly.

We actually had a league that chose to "sandbag" and play in the 11 and 12 year old tourney instead of the Major league 12 year old tournament. They won that toruney but would have gotten smoked in the Major tourney. Is it right to teach the kids to "sandbag"? Probably not, but they didn't break any rules, so what can you do????

As i read the rule book for tournament eligibility: a player/team is not eligible to play in another organization or tournament once the tournament has begun. The time in between the District and State tournaments probably would not apply since they are in fact two different tournaments. Once the State tournament begins they can not play outside of the tournament any more.

I could be wrong on my interpretation but then again I could be right. Who knows????

MY RECOMMENDATION IS TEACH YOUR PLAYERS TO PLAY AS HARD AS THEY CAN, PLAY FAIR, LEARN AS MUCH AS THEY CAN, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HAVE FUN!!!!!!

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