Is Global Warming a fact, true or false.

[RonRam]

I spent 10 weeks at the Exxon Valdez spill, like comments above...it has notheing to do with Global Warming. Al Gore is laughing at us all in private all the way to the bank...we are a nation of gulible fools. The environment in the US has greatly improved in the last 30 years and continues to do so!

[TheKaisho42]

Ummm, yeah...SURE it has...

But improving dramatically in the past 30 years is not that great a feat, if you have screwed teh environmet up really, really badly over the last 150 years.

What you are really saying is that the enviroment is just slightly less shitttier than it was 30 years ago, not BETTER than it was 150 years ago.

How far we have come usually depnds upon where we started, ne c'est pas?

Change the starting point and you can manage statistics anyway you want.

But of you look at it from a MACRO perspective, there are way more PEOPLE, less arable land to grow the crops to feed them, less freshwater for them to drink AND more pollutants everywhere you look.

Does that sound about right? Or do you believe the opposite? Are there less people on Earth? Is there more arable land to grow crops that will feed them? Where is the new source of all the freshwater this "reduced" population you have dreamt about is going to drink from? Are there less machines, factories and oil/coal fired power plants than there were 15o years ago? If so, pray, tell me where does the electricity for all the people you must not believe exist come from? The Power Fairy?

Also, could you tell me how you can fit more people on the planet, more factories and less resources to feed, shelter and water them and NOT have a pollution problem?

Hmmmm...I want to go live there. Maybe they have unicorns, too?

[RonRam]

TheKaisho42 wrote:

Ummm, yeah...SURE it has...
But improving dramatically in the past 30 years is not that great a feat, if you have screwed teh environmet up really, really badly over the last 150 years.
What you are really saying is that the enviroment is just slightly less shitttier than it was 30 years ago, not BETTER than it was 150 years ago.
How far we have come usually depnds upon where we started, ne c'est pas?
Change the starting point and you can manage statistics anyway you want.
But of you look at it from a MACRO perspective, there are way more PEOPLE, less arable land to grow the crops to feed them, less freshwater for them to drink AND more pollutants everywhere you look.
Does that sound about right? Or do you believe the opposite? Are there less people on Earth? Is there more arable land to grow crops that will feed them? Where is the new source of all the freshwater this "reduced" population you have dreamt about is going to drink from? Are there less machines, factories and oil/coal fired power plants than there were 15o years ago? If so, pray, tell me where does the electricity for all the people you must not believe exist come from? The Power Fairy?
Also, could you tell me how you can fit more people on the planet, more factories and less resources to feed, shelter and water them and NOT have a pollution problem?
Hmmmm...I want to go live there. Maybe they have unicorns, too?

Then how do you you explain the continued rise in life expectancies in developed countries? We live in the finest of times with the finest environment. Excellent health care, free time, recreation, potable water, heated and AC homes, safe cars, balanced diets and fresh food all year round, fine transporation systmes, a highly functional legal system, free education. I tire of the moralistic revisionist green lectures. If you had your way we would be living as "hunter and gathers" trying to ekk out a living, fighting neighboring tribes for huntinig groumns...get real, you have any idea how fortunate and blessed you are to live in today's society? I am not saying there isn't areas to improve and excellence to strive for in buidling a greater society, I am saying you need to not be so reactionary and negative.

[Fred Tornado]

michael g wrote:

The earth HAS warmed, that part is true. As to whether or not man has caused it....well, THERE is the fiction.

And don't forget, we just found out that Mars has warmed up too. Those darn Martians and their gas guzzling SUV's!

[Fred Tornado]

dragon_fly121 aka steve wrote:

Global Warming?
I remember back in the seventies, going to bed scared to death because the people on the nightly news were talking about the coming ice age and how we were either gonna starve to death, or freeze to death.
And since that didn't happen, they came up with something else to scare everyone. And they call it Global Warming.
I wonder what the next "fad" will be to scare all the lemmings?

Darnit! I'm still waiting for the killer bees from Africa to come and kill me! Than SARS, West Nile and the Bird Flu can have their turn. If there's anything left of me, global warming can have it.

[RonRam]

Fred Tornado wrote:

<quoted text>
And don't forget, we just found out that Mars has warmed up too. Those darn Martians and their gas guzzling SUV's!

No kidding? Is this Mars place a city in Texas?

[Steelie]

Good Day,

RonRam - well stated. I know I am happy I don't have to use a chamber pot! To think even my own grandfather, now 83, remembers not having electricity or a phone as a child, let alone a car, try horse and carriage.

To me it isn't so much a question of whether or not there is global warming so much as the allegation of man made global warming. Look - the Earth has warmed and cooled, warmed and cooled a great many times. Even before the existance of man. There have been times when the Earth was very nearly covered in ice (post dinosuars) only to receed to the point where the poles had no ice cover at all.(It is thought there was no ice on the poles during the age of the dinosaurs and that even the poles were as warm as tropical rain forest, well, until an asteroid put the kabosh on that.) Only for the process to repeat itself.

And we are certainly doing a better job today as stewards of the Earth than even 30 years ago. Need I mention the Cuyahoga River? Or even our own Grand River for goodness sakes. It was not that long ago that the stretch of the Grand through downtown was a dead river, save for some algae nothing could survive in it. Now look. A thriving fishery with fish that are actually safe to eat!

Global temperatures have remained steady for at least the last few decades with the dustbowl years being the warmest in a very, very long time. Within our own history man has experienced the sway of global temperatures, long before the industrial age. In fact, many researchers now blame the Black Plague of the 1300's on global cooling. The cooling made Europe more wet with rain which lead to stronger crops and a boom in rodents that spread the disease wiping out nearly a third or more of the European population. Curiously, as things warmed up and with less mouths to feed there was more food for those who survived and the Renaissance was born. Or what about the year of 1816, otherwise known as the year without a summer. Nearly a foot of snow was observed in Quebec City in early June. In July and August, lake and river ice were observed as far south as Pennsylvania. It is widely believed that the massive eruption of Mount Tambora was the cause. And even in more recent times we have seen such an event. A short dip in temperatures after the eruption of Mount Krakatoa in 1883. Global temperatures took nearly 5 years to "normalize". It exploded with the force of 200 megatons of TNT or 13,000 times the force of the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima. After the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991 we also saw world temps dip for a time.

And on to astronomical effects on the climate. The Earth does not follow a continual orbit. In other words it's orbit is not locked at a certain distance from the sun. It gets a little closer, than a little farther away. Some theorize it is a tug of war between the giants of Saturn and Jupiter's gravitational pull against that of the sun that causes this change. And that the existence of the two giants helped to place Earth in the habitable zone. Then to the sun itself. The sun does not have a constant temperature. It warms and cools in two types of cycles. One cycle happens around every 11 years or so. We can visually see this as sun spot activity increases and wanes. More sun spots = cooler. Less sun spots = warmer. It also has a much longer cycle that is measured in millenia vs. decades.

So the long and short of it is that we are puny in our even concievable contribution to global warming vs. nature herself. There are forces so powerful that naturaly exist that make any contribution by man to be nothing more than a pin prick.

Steelie

[miss-moll]

The earth is constantly changing. The land masses slowly move over thousands of years, volcanic activity comes and goes, animals and plants evolve or die out. It's a fact of life.

If indeed our planet is starting to get warmer, there's probably no way we can stop it. Let's remember, many years ago much of the planet was covered with glaciers. many creatures evolved or moved south or died.

We'll simply have to adapt, the same as living creatures always have. Our enviroment will change, we will change too.

[RonRam]

Steelie wrote:

Good Day,
RonRam - well stated. I know I am happy I don't have to use a chamber pot! To think even my own grandfather, now 83,....

Cheers! Someone out there actually agrees with me! My Viking ancestors migrated to "Iceland" during one of those warm cycles only to all die off a couple hundred years later during a mini ice age. It wasn't that long ago much of North America was covered by sheets of ice. Our stewardship has greatly improved over the years and our earth can sustain great populatons without degrading the environment. Thanks for the great commentary and thoughtful reply.

[Steelie]

Good Day,

RonRam - you are welcome!

Part of the problem with many of the Global Warming conspiracists is that they pick and choose the information they claim to be "science". Any one can attempt to construct an arguement without using all available data. With out too much difficulty I could attempt, and succeed, to construct an arguement that would prove beyond a resonable doubt that the opposite is happening. That the Earth is getting colder. All I have to do, like the alarmists, is pick and choose the data I intend to support my arguement rather than using all available data. I could present to you many real and factual bits of data, but it does not necessarily mean my presentation is wholely truthful. I wouldn't have to lie at all, just choose the data to support my arguement. I could present to you trueful and proven information such as the glaciers on Mount Shasta are growing. That many areas in Sibera, Alaska and Northern Canada just had one of if not the coldest winters in recorded history. So too with the South Pole hitting records low temperatures. I could pick out a certain week in February that was particularly colder than average even though the other three weeks were at or above average. Then I could scream until I am hoarse that the Earth is cooling down. It really would not be that difficult.

Steelie

[RichMac]

miss-moll wrote:

The earth is constantly changing. The land masses slowly move over thousands of years, volcanic activity comes and goes, animals and plants evolve or die out. It's a fact of life.
If indeed our planet is starting to get warmer, there's probably no way we can stop it. Let's remember, many years ago much of the planet was covered with glaciers. many creatures evolved or moved south or died.
We'll simply have to adapt, the same as living creatures always have. Our enviroment will change, we will change too.

I like it. Global warming is a natural event. We can't blame the "ice age" on people. Everything in the universe is in a constant state of change.

[Red_Fist]

Allright damn it, I hate those CFL bulbs but work well for a bulb you want left on for many hours, so I can put up with the funky color light they have for one or two areas. and one of those energy hog commercials the kid puts one in and they have the thing edited so the bulb looks bright as ever.(fake)

But my point is, those bulbs SHOULD NOT be mandated, they should only be made in the USA for USA, and the gov and Al gore should fund a trade in program, you bring in an old bulb and you get the new kind.

So rather than doing somthing that would help such as banning all junk mail, think how much energy that would save in one week,!! and tons of people would say YES to that.
But Noooooooooooooo all we are getting is those stupid do gooders who are a pathetic lot.

Trust me every bulb with mercury in it will be in the trash can from me, damn lametard liberal do gooders, and just think, your kids WILL come in contact with mercury far more than ever, and it don't take very much at all to get you injured for life, bad stuff maynord.It absorbs through your skin and if it was in vapor form that stuff will stay in your rug because it becomes atomised and you will absorb it easily.

[Playtah]

I think it is irresponsible and frankly senselesss to think that the massive industrialization that started in the mid-1800s has not negatively impacted the environment in many ways. Whether this has amounted to "global warming", "global climate change" or even general "pollution", I think it's obvious that we have negatively impacted our planet. Call it what you want, but we've got to start doing something different or it will only get worse. I don't think anyone can scientifically argue that our planet is better now that it was in the mid-1800s. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I'll proudly hug a tree if it keeps the earth from self-destructing under our ever-increasing hunger for faster production and bigger bottom lines.

[Josh]

Playtah wrote:

I think it is irresponsible and frankly senselesss to think that the massive industrialization that started in the mid-1800s has not negatively impacted the environment in many ways. Whether this has amounted to "global warming", "global climate change" or even general "pollution", I think it's obvious that we have negatively impacted our planet. Call it what you want, but we've got to start doing something different or it will only get worse. I don't think anyone can scientifically argue that our planet is better now that it was in the mid-1800s. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I'll proudly hug a tree if it keeps the earth from self-destructing under our ever-increasing hunger for faster production and bigger bottom lines.

What you're suggesting is that human beings have the capability of destroying this planet simply by driving cars? That's a scary and arrogant thought.

According to the same scientists who support global warming (although many are merely politicians or political activists), this earth has been through catastrophic events from meteors to ice ages to everything else. And they somehow think that in the span of under 200 years we've destroyed our planet or are close to it?

Its disgusting, its untrue, and its arrogant above all else. I for one don't know how any Christians can believe we're dooming the planet, seeing as how we should all believe God will destroy it when He's ready.

[Playtah]

Josh wrote:

<quoted text>
What you're suggesting is that human beings have the capability of destroying this planet simply by driving cars? That's a scary and arrogant thought.

No, I said INDUSTRIALIZATION. Factories, power plants, cars, yes, but thousands of other things. And yes, I believe humans have the ability to destroy the planet. If you believe the Bible, we were given dominion over creation. We have the ability to affect creation by our choices. Look at a picture of Beijing in the 1700s, then look at a picture of Beijing today. Smog. That is a small example you can see of how we affect the environment. Is it permanent? I hope not. But even volcanoes negatively affect the environment, and they don't erupt all that often. Our factories spew crap into the air everyday. How can that not negatively impact the environment?

So no, I'm not saying that we're destroying the earth by driving cars. That was twisting my words and simplifying what I was trying to say. I didn't say that just cars were responsible, and I didn't say we were 'destroying' anything. What I AM saying is that our industrialization has made many negative impacts on the earth, and we might want to look at minimizing the negative things we are doing so we don't end up getting ourselves into irreversible trouble.

[Playtah]

Josh wrote:

<quoted text>I for one don't know how any Christians can believe we're dooming the planet, seeing as how we should all believe God will destroy it when He's ready.

And scarily, it seems that the "Christians" are the least concerned about protecting the world. I'd think that if the Deity I worshiped made the world, I'd be a bit more careful about taking care of it.

[Playtah]

I know that that statement I just made is a bit provocative, but I really feel it needs to be said. I have many Christian friends who just don't give a d*mn. They are so worried about souls and heaven that they don't care about humans and earth.

[Steelie]

Good Day,

Red Fist - funny thing about those curly cue light bulbs - they are now illegal in Europe! Ha! Because they pose a greater environmental threat than good old incandescent light bulbs! Why? Mercury! Those curly bulbs contain high doses of mercury! In fact, I read an article not too long ago about a woman in I think California who had to spend over $3K to have a haz mat crew come in and clean her house because she broke one of these crazy bulbs, and if she hadn't her house would have been declared a toxic accident area! Hahahahahahaha... so much for environmentalism huh?

Steelie

[Atreides]

Playtah wrote:

I know that that statement I just made is a bit provocative, but I really feel it needs to be said. I have many Christian friends who just don't give a d*mn. They are so worried about souls and heaven that they don't care about humans and earth.

That's interesting since I know many Christians who believe that God made us stewards of His creation and as such, we are obligated to care for it.

[The Preacher]

Red_Fist wrote:

Al Gore is at it again, 3 trillion, 10 years.
It is a pile of bunk. or I should say, junk science.

Come on, now...He created the internet, ya know??!!