Bethlehem to lose secret parking spots

[BAGGERY]

Noname in Bethlehem wrote:

<quoted text>
I like the way you think. I often wondered when they were going to invest mega-millions into the old Bethlehem steel site and turn it into something (gambling), why wasn't the first choice a steel mill?

The reason that a steel mill wasn't considered is because it failed the first time...Foreign steel is cheaper to make and buy because, while Union and Steel Powerplayers were getting rich, every other company was modernizing.

[Joe Bethlehem]

Alex wrote:

I of course didn't realize it was just a front for additional ticket revenue for the city. everything has to be about dollar signs...

The trails that are being built are not going to build revenue. They are just giving people advanced notice to keep cars out of the area so they can make progress clearing it. They are giving the courtesy of issuing warnings for several weeks. If there isn't a consequence then people will just continiue to park there. Seems fair enough to me.

[Joe Bethlehem]

[QUOTE who="southside **** "]This greenway is a complete waste of money.[/QUOTE]

That's your opinion. The Southside is lacking green spaces. Some trees and grass will soften the look outside the restaurants and casinos. I think it's a great idea.

[Riding the Rails]

The last rail service to the Valley from Philadelphia ended in 1980. Passenger fares could not longer support it and there was such low demand that the newspaper reported it would be cheaper to purchase a new automobile for each passenger than to continue the subsidized service.

New rail cost anywhere from 20 to 75 million dollars per mile to build. That is just the rail. Then you have to purchase the equipment and then you have to hire people to operate the trains. Who is going to pay for all that?

In our 'never ever raise taxes ever again' society how is this going to be paid for?

Passenger fares for a service that will take longer to get to Philadelphia (it has to be a 'local' and not an express in order to pick up much needed revenue passengers along the way) than the current bus service, will neither be competitive nor attractive to commuters no pay for the service. Where will the subsidy come from?

Same is true of rail service to New York. Everyone envisions boarding in downtown Lehigh Valley and arriving in downtown New York an hour later. Not possible. Again, it has to stop at at least a dozen places in New Jersey before it gets to New York and will likely take two hours.

The local trolley system rails were ripped out of the Valley in the name of progress in the mid-50's. Putting all that stuff back is not only cost-prohibitive but a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem.

[True American]

What they should do on that narrow strip of land is build a 50FT high wall to block out the blighted view of the South Side SKUM shacks.
What a site that is going to be from the "high roller" suites in the casino hotel rooms on the other side of 3rd St.
It would also keep the "natives" from dumping their trash over the fence onto the tracks like they do now.

[Interesting]

True American wrote:

What they should do on that narrow strip of land is build a 50FT high wall to block out the blighted view of the South Side SKUM shacks.
What a site that is going to be from the "high roller" suites in the casino hotel rooms on the other side of 3rd St.
It would also keep the "natives" from dumping their trash over the fence onto the tracks like they do now.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[Hmmm]

In the 19th century the Lehigh Valley didn't have New York and New Jersey residents moving here and commute back to NY and NJ. And with the price of gas lately I'd sure like to know how it is cheaper to buy a car and then commute as close as even Philadelphia. What people here are suggesting is finding a way to use the existing tracks that are currently in place as a way to foster public transportation for a growing problem for many commuters here in the Lehigh Valley. I think those that commute as close as Philadelphia would welcome a daily line to and from the Valley. Mass transit has worked in New York City all these years there's no reason why it can't work here especially if city officials want Bethlehem to grow like New York City.

Riding the Rails wrote:

The local trolley system rails were ripped out of the Valley in the name of progress in the mid-50's. Putting all that stuff back is not only cost-prohibitive but a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem.

[perplexed]

Riding the Rails wrote:

The last rail service to the Valley from Philadelphia ended in 1980. Passenger fares could not longer support it and there was such low demand that the newspaper reported it would be cheaper to purchase a new automobile for each passenger than to continue the subsidized service.
New rail cost anywhere from 20 to 75 million dollars per mile to build. That is just the rail. Then you have to purchase the equipment and then you have to hire people to operate the trains. Who is going to pay for all that?
In our 'never ever raise taxes ever again' society how is this going to be paid for?
Passenger fares for a service that will take longer to get to Philadelphia (it has to be a 'local' and not an express in order to pick up much needed revenue passengers along the way) than the current bus service, will neither be competitive nor attractive to commuters no pay for the service. Where will the subsidy come from?
Same is true of rail service to New York. Everyone envisions boarding in downtown Lehigh Valley and arriving in downtown New York an hour later. Not possible. Again, it has to stop at at least a dozen places in New Jersey before it gets to New York and will likely take two hours.
The local trolley system rails were ripped out of the Valley in the name of progress in the mid-50's. Putting all that stuff back is not only cost-prohibitive but a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem.

As much as I'd like to see rail service return to the Valley, for these reasons I just don't think it's economically viable. I haven't heard anyone tell me I'll be able to get a train ticket to NYC that will cost less than either gas/parking for my car or a round-trip bus ticket. If it doesn't cost less than those options, people aren't going to use it.

[No Train]

Just what we need more NYer's here. Let's raise the gas and bus prices higher. And maybe the NYer's will move back.
Let's not make it any easier to get to NY.

We need more bike trails.

[I see your point]

No Train wrote:

Just what we need more NYer's here. Let's raise the gas and bus prices higher. And maybe the NYer's will move back.
Let's not make it any easier to get to NY.
We need more bike trails.

While I support the idea of regional rail, you can't argue that removing the NYers and Jersey scum is a bad idea

[dave]

Hmmm wrote:

OK no one here is suggesting that installing a more productive public transportation is cheap or easy. But the fact is that with the amount of people who commute every day from Hellertown, Bethlehem and Allentown to Philadelphia and New York is growing. It makes sense to have a rail go from Philly to Allentown and then on to Hellertown. It makes sense to have a run from Hellertown to New Jersey. And while it DOESN'T make sense to build a new steel mill on top of the old dilapidated one that has been sitting there for a long period of time, it also can be very detrimental to have a CASINO in the middle of elementary schools and colleges. I do like the idea of a path into Hellertown, heck I'd use it. But I also think a lot of the things the Mayor has introduced to the city are quick fixes and have not been thought out as well as they could have been. But hey thats why we're entitled to our own opinions. The rails are there already why can't they be used.
<quoted text>

I'll give you most of that, my point is that when the public starts clammoring for better public transportation, then our mayor will have the political capital to institute more long-range thinking. Even cities with great public transportation have congestion and the like, because there's a large (much too large, IMHO)segment of the population who simply will not use public transportation. Those people aren't going to suppor tax dollars being spent for the rest of us, which kind of ties the hands of our leaders when it comes to bold policy initiatives. As for the steel v. gambling issue - the mills had been dormant for quite some time. When was the magic solution going to present itself?

[Michele of Bethlehem]

Hmmm wrote:

"Now, Miller said, with the city as owner and victim, it will be easier to file a complaint."
Soooo instead of patroling the area before you acquired the land, and not looking into the complaints from the railroad company you will instead file complaints with yourself, then go and patrol. Rails to paper-trails!
I agree with sound reasoning. If Bethlehem built a railway between Philadelphia and Hellertown it would alleviate so much traffic on the roads.
But that makes too much sense.

I doubt that conrail ever made complaints, that is why people got away with it for so long.

[Michele of Bethlehem]

Bethlehem Citizen wrote:

Face it, there will not be anything on "rails" going down that path anytime soon or anytime in the future. However, if the trail that they put in is wide enough and paved, it could support bicycling, rollerblading, and walking and this might take some additional people out of their cars from the surrounding streets. Hopefully soon, if I need to get to Hellertown, I'll be taking this trail on my bike. Plus, it will be a draw for people looking for recreation and exercise in the neighborhood.
Because government in this area isn't keen on putting in public transport on rails (they have the misconception that it is too expensive), we need to think of other creative ideas that will get more people into transit and off of clogged roads. Obviously, LANTA needs more frequent buses to start. But, how about adding hybrid or natural gas buses? How about busways (bus only roadways built on unused rail right-of-ways) such as in Pittsburgh and Ottawa? How about buses being allowed to run along the berm/breakdown lanes on Rt. 22 to avoid traffic jams?

I agree with you. It would be nice if we had rail service but its not happening anytime soon, it won't happen on that land if it ever does happen. Bethlehem is doing the city a favor by cleaning that strip up and making it a biking/walking/running path. It might not take the number of cars off the road that rail would but it helps.

[Michele of Bethlehem]

interested wrote:

that's what happens when you have a young inexperienced mayor

He's doing a great job and this trail will be a great addition to the city.

[Billy Givens]

A USA court has recently ruled that the former Bethlehem Steel Corporation plant at Sparrows Point, Maryland, must be soled to Russian Steel giant Severstal rather than the Luxembourg (Belgium)-Mittal (India) steel-making gian,

This globalization of the steel industry also explains why Norfolk-southern Railroad is divesting its rail sstem to CSX, with which Northfolk-Southern has merged.

These Norfolk-Southern holdings include the 3-mile stretch of former railroad in South Side Bethlehem, and explains the new Intermodal on State Route 412.

This Intermodal is destined to become the new Free Trade Zone and integral part of the George W. Bush administration's Security and Prosperity Partnership Agreement (SPPA), the follow-on to NAFTA and CAFTA.

The FTZ is also part of parcel of the New city America East of Donna Taggart Associates and Dynametrics of former LVEDC chairman John Englesson, two corporations that have recently merged.

[a reader]

dave wrote:

<quoted text>
I'll give you most of that, my point is that when the public starts clammoring for better public transportation, then our mayor will have the political capital to institute more long-range thinking. Even cities with great public transportation have congestion and the like, because there's a large (much too large, IMHO)segment of the population who simply will not use public transportation. Those people aren't going to suppor tax dollars being spent for the rest of us, which kind of ties the hands of our leaders when it comes to bold policy initiatives. As for the steel v. gambling issue - the mills had been dormant for quite some time. When was the magic solution going to present itself?

Additional options in public transportation would be great if they would work into many people's lifestyles. I.E. a working mother who has to drive one way to get their children to day care and then another way to get to work. If a child needs to be picked up mid-day due to illness the mother needs to get there immediatly. Additionally if the children are school aged many parents take their lunch times to attend school functions that occur during the day. It's just not reasonable for a working parent trying to be involved with thier children's lives to be able to wait for a bus or train in the middle of the day let alone the additional time it would take in an already cramped schedule to walk to the bus, wait for the bus, etc to transport kids to child care and then go to work. If a parent can afford a car more than likely they will use their car for their commute. At least that's my opinin.
Years ago when the father worked and the mother reared the cildren it worked into their lifestyle for a person to commute by train or bus to work. With our society of both parents working and over loaded schedules of children and parents.

[JimE]

I still think that something fishy went on with the "forced" selling of this line to the City of Bethlehem. NS did not volunteer to abandon it, instead, the COB requested that they did. Besides the greenway, I think that we might see some development of the land that profits certain individuals associated with the COB. Or, I could just be a really suspicious person....

Yes, I filed a complaint with the STB about this, as I knew that one the rails were gone, there would probably never again be rail service in between Philly and the Lehigh Valley.

Rail service ended in 1981 as the counties outside of Bucks/Montgomery were not interested in contributing to SEPTA the amount that it would take for their share. That combined with SEPTA eliminating all non-electrified rail service was the death knell for the line.

Sad. Enjoy your walking trail along with a jam packed route 309.

[Interesting]

Billy Givens wrote:

A USA court has recently ruled that the former Bethlehem Steel Corporation plant at Sparrows Point, Maryland, must be soled to Russian Steel giant Severstal rather than the Luxembourg (Belgium)-Mittal (India) steel-making gian,
This globalization of the steel industry also explains why Norfolk-southern Railroad is divesting its rail sstem to CSX, with which Northfolk-Southern has merged.
These Norfolk-Southern holdings include the 3-mile stretch of former railroad in South Side Bethlehem, and explains the new Intermodal on State Route 412.
This Intermodal is destined to become the new Free Trade Zone and integral part of the George W. Bush administration's Security and Prosperity Partnership Agreement (SPPA), the follow-on to NAFTA and CAFTA.
The FTZ is also part of parcel of the New city America East of Donna Taggart Associates and Dynametrics of former LVEDC chairman John Englesson, two corporations that have recently merged.

The only way in to the BethIntermodal site is through the Bethlehem Steel land that also still has a few Philadelphia Bethlehem and New England railroad employees and their track rights. They must use this in order to get to BethIntermodal.

Also let me tell you CP rail out of Canada owns a short portion of track at the old Florence JCT. called the hill track in which Norfolk Southern has to pay them by the car for trackage rights to use that short line. I'm sure the cost is deferred to BethIntermodal.

The only way in or out of BethIntermodal is through that spot.

CSX and Norfolk Southern have only merged in a small part of New Jersey and its called shared assets. Nowhere else.

[Interesting]

JimE wrote:

I still think that something fishy went on with the "forced" selling of this line to the City of Bethlehem. NS did not volunteer to abandon it, instead, the COB requested that they did. Besides the greenway, I think that we might see some development of the land that profits certain individuals associated with the COB. Or, I could just be a really suspicious person....
Yes, I filed a complaint with the STB about this, as I knew that one the rails were gone, there would probably never again be rail service in between Philly and the Lehigh Valley.
Rail service ended in 1981 as the counties outside of Bucks/Montgomery were not interested in contributing to SEPTA the amount that it would take for their share. That combined with SEPTA eliminating all non-electrified rail service was the death knell for the line.
Sad. Enjoy your walking trail along with a jam packed route 309.

Norfolk Southern did have plans to abandon this piece of track , the old Saucon yard was of no interest and was not in use for many years , the only time they went there was to Wye the engine's because the only other place to do this was in Bath on the Cement secondary track , and would be a pain in the butt , and with the new 6 axis units the would have trouble sluing in the harder curves without proper elevation and track rigidity (bad railroad ties in the track ). They would have derailed. Not to mention the larger clearance for the newer locomotives.

The old SEPTA tracks are still in ground from Hellertown to Quakertown and I believe SEPTA still owns that part of the line.

NS only sold to Hellertown , that's it.

[Interesting]

I meant " 6 axle units " not as I posted my mistake.