'Smart grid'-buzz of the electric power industry

[Marin Native]

PaulB22 wrote:

That is like what a traffic engineering firm employee told someone that there were little tiny cameras all over Marin doing traffic counts, so small that you can't see them, and they are everywhere ! It turned out that a secretary told a caller this and caused an uproar, the company had to tell the truth that their employee didn't know what she was talking about. If you actually believe that smart meters are transmitting RF, then I have an old diesel train set sitting up in Sonoma county to sell you along with your smart meter, let's call it a SMART diesel train.

Paul (Pulipaca)- you are your own worst enemy sometimes! You wrote a great post, full of good information...until the end when you just had to take a shot at your pet project (the SMART train). Unfortunately you got your story wrong again.
Months prior to the November 2008 vote, another anti-smart person on this board responded to some data which had been posted by "Old as Dirt". The anti-smart person claimed he called the company that had performed a traffic study which was used in SMART's white papers. The issue was where traffic entered and exited the freeway in Marin.
I picked up the phone and called the company, got to the right person, and confirmed in fact that they do and did use cameras to track and report specific traffic flow throughout the Bay Area. They kept detailed logs of where cars entered and exited the freeway and used these numbers to compile exact data. This was in addition to data which had been compiled via traffic counters. They could actually see and track where cars entered highway 101, the location, and time of day. Good stuff and useful when compiled for a specific purpose.
The practice is not new. Cal Trans and their consultants have used these cameras for other studies. For instance, they did a report on enforcement of HOV lane usage in the east bay a few years ago. I was told the cameras are so good, they could zoom in on license plates and see inside the car and what the driver was eating for breakfast. BTW, they are not tiny or invisible. These cameras exist up and down our freeway system and are also used for traffic webcams. Cal Trans apparently can access better resolution than we see on the traffic webcams.
It's funny how you got in an uproar over this. The person who first brought up the camera based data on this board was anti-SMART and got ripped for his "camera story" when in fact it was true. I came to his defense after a fascinating short phone conversation with the company.
So here we are almost a year later and you have twisted this story again. Every time you write something intelligent and gain some credibility, you take a step backward in credibility court.
You have good knowledge and write interesting posts Paul (Pulipaca). Why do you always see the need to reference the SMART train on every non-related issue? At least try to keep your facts straight.

[Commander Bunny]

PaulB22 wrote:

<quoted text>Is that what PG&E told you ? Then you have not talked to the right person, and what is the 33cm band ? Is that infared or microwave or something ?
If you want to get some information check out
www.pge.com/smartmeter . I checked it this morning, and it said the electric meters do indeed transmit RF but it is on the electric mesh network (power lines) not in the air. We have been using this technology for 20 years in the lighting control industry. The first version was the X-10, it transmits data in the form of RF on top of the power line carrier. It controls blinds on windows, spa pumps, lighting zones both dimming and on-off and much more. Now the technology has evolved and made by many different manufacturers like Leviton's Decora Home Controls and the new Zwave systems. I also read a few years ago that PG&E was considering offering broadband internet through their existing power lines. Since their infrastucture is already in place, they thought it might be less expensive than running new fiber optic cables and coax, but so far no word as to their ideas.

Broad-band via the powerlines, or BPL is, or was another major pitched battle beacause of interference.
And Who got BPL shut-down?
The American Radio Relay League, and other Ham Operators.

It happens to cause alot of problems in the HF band, if allowed to operate, it would pretty much wipe-out the recieving aspects on the lower frequecies, and would render HF communications useless.(on some, not all freq's)

Just an FYI.

[PaulB22]

Commander Bunny wrote:

<quoted text>Broad-band via the powerlines, or BPL is, or was another major pitched battle beacause of interference.
And Who got BPL shut-down?
The American Radio Relay League, and other Ham Operators.
It happens to cause alot of problems in the HF band, if allowed to operate, it would pretty much wipe-out the recieving aspects on the lower frequecies, and would render HF communications useless.(on some, not all freq's)
Just an FYI.

I don't think it was the AARL and other ham operators that squelched BPL, it was the giant cable and phone corporations that stopped it, they are ones with the serious doughsky. And how does transmitting radio signals on wire like Comcast does now affect radio transmitted in the air ? Is it because the PG&E wires would not be quad shielded like coax is ?

[PaulB22]

Marin Native, the traffic counts are done by induction loops inbedded on the freeway, there are not hundreds of minuture cameras installed all over Marin, I'm surprised that you fell for that, but you are are a sucker for hogwash.
There are 4 types of vehicle detection used, they are magnetometer, loop detectors, video and radar. I am a traffic signal technician and know how to do traffic counts, video is in use but is unreliable with many problems, so in Marin it is only used for monitoring , but the cameras must be mounted in plain site on poles. Those cameras are for monitoring only, not official counts. There are 4 or 5 mounted on 101 in Marin that you can view yourself, I don't have the website but I can recall it for you. If cameras were indeed used for the SMART campaign then they would be hand held units with a person attached, so that story about 100's of minature cameras so small you can't see them mounted all over Marin, even in Bolinas was bunk indeed. That is what I was talking about.

[ptor]

Concerning BPL (broadband over power lines):

In general, it's a really bad idea. One important reason for sending signals over fiber, coax, or twisted pair cables is get as much of the signal to the destination while radiating as little as possible. Using power lines for transmitting data pretty much goes right against this; the utilities lines are a lousy lossy media for data signals and they radiate as inadvertent antennae.

Amateur radio operators know about this since the BPL signals are often all over the frequencies that hams are licensed to use. The Bush administration strongly pushed BPL as a way to offer broadband to rural areas. Consequently the FCC during the Bush admin wasn't interested in hearing anything bad about BPL like the interference caused.

Seriously? If we want broadband, run the fiber. Or go with WiMax perhaps.

[Pulipaca]

ptor wrote:

Concerning BPL (broadband over power lines):
In general, it's a really bad idea. One important reason for sending signals over fiber, coax, or twisted pair cables is get as much of the signal to the destination while radiating as little as possible. Using power lines for transmitting data pretty much goes right against this; the utilities lines are a lousy lossy media for data signals and they radiate as inadvertent antennae.
Amateur radio operators know about this since the BPL signals are often all over the frequencies that hams are licensed to use. The Bush administration strongly pushed BPL as a way to offer broadband to rural areas. Consequently the FCC during the Bush admin wasn't interested in hearing anything bad about BPL like the interference caused.
Seriously? If we want broadband, run the fiber. Or go with WiMax perhaps.

No doubt everyone agrees that BPL was an idea that went clunk, I seriously doubt that it will ever come to fruition. But using power lines in buildings to send command signals has been going on for over 30 years and is here to stay, and the Smart grid is going to happen, whether ya like it or not. I do not like it at all, but GE and the government/corporations involved in this are going to make it happen. GE recently said that the Smart grid technology is going to make them prosper in this depression. You watch, PG&E is already installing smart meters in central California (foreclosure land) and I was told that they will be installing them in Marin starting in 2010, and that was before the depression and Obama's stimulus package was cooked up.

[Marin Native]

PaulB22 wrote:

Marin Native, the traffic counts are done by induction loops inbedded on the freeway, there are not hundreds of minuture cameras installed all over Marin, I'm surprised that you fell for that, but you are are a sucker for hogwash.
There are 4 types of vehicle detection used, they are magnetometer, loop detectors, video and radar. I am a traffic signal technician and know how to do traffic counts, video is in use but is unreliable with many problems, so in Marin it is only used for monitoring , but the cameras must be mounted in plain site on poles. Those cameras are for monitoring only, not official counts. There are 4 or 5 mounted on 101 in Marin that you can view yourself, I don't have the website but I can recall it for you. If cameras were indeed used for the SMART campaign then they would be hand held units with a person attached, so that story about 100's of minature cameras so small you can't see them mounted all over Marin, even in Bolinas was bunk indeed. That is what I was talking about.

Paul - I stand by my post #21 which you didn't directly contest anyway.

I am aware of traffic counts and the methods - and as always, you are impressive with your terminology and knowledge...but it has little to do with the contents of my post.

I previously passed along the consultant's own words on using the cameras that are in place by Caltrans and are used to monitor traffic daily already. We learned that they can and do use these cameras to study traffic patterns. And yes, the public can already access some of the feeds on various websites. They are not hard to find.

Once again, this subject came up during the debate prior to the vote for measure Q. An anti-SMART person voiced concern about the subject of cameras being used for a traffic study. This anti-SMART poster got ripped for his/her suggesting that cameras were being used. In search of the truth, I made a couple of phone calls and was able to confirm the claims by this anti-SMART poster. Yes, I helped an anti-SMART person confirm his own information.

I simply confirmed that cameras were used as one facet of the traffic studies as a supplement to the other counts. The claim by the independent traffic consultant was that they could actually track where specific cars got on and off the freeway (um…the state route). Traffic counts are great, but results which actually show where trips originate and terminate is of some real value when weighing the value of transit.

Fortunately they do not have cameras around Lake Nicasio so are safe driving 100 mph in this area.

Happy Independence Day!

[PaulB22]

Here is how Cal Trans does on/off ramp counts that SMART used. There are traffic signal controllers at each intersection where traffic exits and enters 101. Every time a vehicle passes over a loop detector it causes a change in current in the loop of wire embedded in the roadway and hence a call for service.
The controllers are programmed to allow service to each phase (traffic lane) until it either gaps out or maxes out, then that phase is terminated to allow other lanes service. All that information that the controller receives is sent to the master traffic control center, it's like an air traffic control center. They can actually make changes from the control room to allow for smoother traffic flow in case of accidents and other problems.
The vehicle counting is done by loop detectors, and the cameras mounted on the poles along the freeway are used for monitoring back ups and delays. You can view the 5 cameras on the freeway in Marin in real time from your computer at home if you want to if you go to the Cal Trans web site. But beware, San Rafael is going to be installing 4 red light cameras at their busiest locations. We are thankful that San Rafael is the only place in Marin that has cameras, all the rest of the county is safe, and there are no traffic signals in all of west Marin, no trains, shopping malls , casinos, office parks or large condo box projects either. Thank goodness !